calvinists - just this one thing

[Yelsew]

What was the death of Jesus for? What did He shed Hid blood for?

ATONEMENT for the sins of the world so that come the Judgment of each person before God, the verdict will be based on the faith condition of the person.

If Jesus' blood atones for our sins they are not counted against us for judgment!

I trust you will find this a worthy argument for "faith only" Salvation.

 

[Yelsew]

it is important to consider sin and its origin because this plays a large role come judgment when one considers the calvinist doctrines. and one of its role is to clarify: is a non-elect responsible for his own condemnation, given the imputed sin/guilt and the seminally passed sin nature?

My post blows the arguments of both Calvinism and Arminianism completely away. An Individual's "FAITH ALONE" is what Saves.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
An Individual's "FAITH ALONE" is what Saves.

I guess you don't sing the song, "Jesus Saves". How sad, Yelsew.

 

[Yelsew]

Of Course I do, it is only in your mind that I have limited Jesus' Power.

Jesus is the object of my faith! It is Faith in Jesus (God) alone that saves. Nevertheless, it is faith alone, not faith plus something! No individual human effort is involved in our salvation.

The Sins of the world are atoned for, so sins will not be counted against one at the judgment! ALL mankind will be judged on equal basis, which is their individual faith condition when before the Judgment Throne of God. All have their sins atoned for, All will be judged.

Whosoever believeth is saved from the lake of fire.

Whosoever believeth not is cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Frogman]

Don't have time to go into great detail, but I was curious as to what you think of the fact that Scripture records of Jesus that he stated '...he that believeth not is condemned already' perhaps this is a paraphrase and not verbatim, if so, count the errors to Bro.Dallas and not the Holy Spirit.

Your thoughts on the past, present and future meaning of 'already' would be interesting to read. (message open to all, but in response to Yelsew's post asserting that eternal condition of 'non-believers' being cast into the lake of fire, of which statement I agree with).

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Frogman]

ATONEMENT

Had to offer my two pence here also.

Atonement in the Hebrew is found used in at least two tenses, but in it is seen a third usage: active, passive and the third is what I call present.

In this we find: a covering, to be covered, and to cover, in no particular order.

To say that there is an atonement is the same then as saying there is a covering, there is a need for a covering, and there is one who covers. To say as you do that the atonement is for the sin of the world (inclusive as understood of your meaning by myself, if wrong forgive me), is equal to saying that all people will be saved, because the covering is there upon all sin, which of a certain would incorporate into its meaning every individual. It is belief such as this that I stand in opposition to and I agree with aao310 that such teaching is misleading at best and dangerous at worst.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Yelsew]

Go back and carefully read my whole post. There is nothing contained therein that eludes to ALL being saved. What I said is that sin is not a factor at the Judgment throne of God! And that is because of the atonement for sin. Thus, ALL will be judged based on one single criteria, their Faith condition. It is Faith in God (3 in 1) alone that saves the individual.

 

[tyndale1946]

I sing the song... Jesus Paid It All!... What are we judged for?... What rewards do we get?... Is not living in eternal happiness reward enough?

Jesus paid it all... So who gets the reward?... The bible states over and over again we stand by faith... Do we stand by our own faith?... Or do we stand by the Faith of the Son of God who loved us and gave himself for us?

Are their positions in heaven?... Does one brother or sister derserve more than any other when it is Jesus Christ that did the work?... If they do would it not cease to be heaven?... The scriptures state we have an equal inheritance in Jesus Christ... If it is equal how come some say there are degrees of it?

My faith as I understand it is by Jesus Christ!... When I get to the judgement seat of Christ if I am not seen by God through Jesus eyes as a Sinner Saved... Then I am lost worlds without end!... I see it no other way!... I understand it no other way... And I preach it no other way... We stand before the judgement seat of Christ daily and answer for our sins daily and are cleansed daily!

We present our bodies daily as a living sacrifice holy and acceptable unto God which is our reasonable service... If we do or fail to carry out what we are instructed to do... We are either blessed or suffer... In Time... In our walk with the Lord here!

I see to many Christian that want to cut others off because they don't believe or see it as they do!... Both Jews and Gentiles are included in unbelief that God might have mercy on all. I will let God save all his children instead of dictating to him who must be saved... When I stand before the White Throne Judgement Seat of Christ... It will be for what Jesus has done for me... BY HIS OWN WORKS ALONE... and not how I helped him save me... He tread the winepress alone!... Jesus Paid It All... All To Him I Owe!... Brother Glen

&

Sister Charlotte

 

[Frogman]

The Sins of the world are atoned for, so sins will not be counted against one at the judgment! ALL mankind will be judged on equal basis, which is their individual faith condition when before the Judgment Throne of God. All have their sins atoned for, All will be judged.

So someone with strong faith is more saved than someone with weak faith, right?

'go to, let us build ourselves a tower unto heaven and make a name for ourselves'

'and Nimrod began to be a mighty hunter before the Lord'

'Come, God shall reason with man, eat, drink, and be merry, whatsoever thy heart desires of the lust of the flesh, this do, only believe, for all sin is covered and ye must only believe'
Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Are there degrees of believer and unbeliever?

Can one partially believe or partially unbelieve?

Because sin is not the issue at the Judgment, God deals with belief and unbelief of those before him for judgment.

No human can believe in jesus more than any other. One either believes or does not believe. One has faith or one does not, there are no degrees of faith.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Are there degrees of believer and unbeliever?

Can one partially believe or partially unbelieve?

Because sin is not the issue at the Judgment, God deals with belief and unbelief of those before him for judgment.

No human can believe in jesus more than any other. One either believes or does not believe. One has faith or one does not, there are no degrees of faith.

Why not, if one can wholly believe and then wholly 'unbelieve' then what stops partial belief; and further, if one is able to believe in a historical Jesus, then why would they not be 'saved' or would this be considered partial or whole belief?

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Aki]

Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:
Aki,

I found the following the following article to be extremely helpful to me a few years ago. Perhaps will help to answer your question as well.

Ken,

thanks for your reply.

i've read that article before already. in fact, i adhere to that. however, the only question the article answered was:

The chief objection against this theory is that it is not fair. God would be unjust to let one man represent mankind on so serious an issue. Each person ought to stand on his own. This objection can be answered in two ways.

true, God is still just. but it still did not answer the question: is a non-elect to be blamed for his own condemnation. he was represented, yes. he went down with the falling of his perfect representative. that made him guilty. but he is guilty due to representation and not due to his own doing. this creates a serious question. there is no act of his own to condemn him, but only that of his representative. yet come judgement the method is personal.

thus, his volition never played a role to his condemnation. is he therefore personally to be blamed? did he have a choice?

come TULIP, each non-elect never had a chance, for he was condemned due to representation and that he has no choice but to get condemned regardless of his volition. more so, he also never had the ability to accept Christ due also to the sin nature that got him unable. again, no volition was played in his condemnation, neither in his possesion of inability. he never chose any, but he had both anyways. is he therefore to be blamed? or was he just a victim of represenation?

i know i am repeating the same arguments over and over, but your answer still does not suffice. i've had this conversation with another calvinist in another post and he answered double predestionation, which answered everything. on your end, however, you do not cling to that, but your answer does not satisfy. thus my question stands.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Aki:
but your answer does not satisfy. thus my question stands.

There is probably not much more explanation I could give. It doesn't really matter in the long run. Just be satisfied in Christ, brother.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
Are there degrees of believer and unbeliever?

Can one partially believe or partially unbelieve?

Because sin is not the issue at the Judgment, God deals with belief and unbelief of those before him for judgment.

No human can believe in jesus more than any other. One either believes or does not believe. One has faith or one does not, there are no degrees of faith.

Why not, if one can wholly believe and then wholly 'unbelieve' then what stops partial belief; and further, if one is able to believe in a historical Jesus, then why would they not be 'saved' or would this be considered partial or whole belief?

Bro. Dallas Eaton

</font>[/QUOTE]The question asked by Jesus is "do you believe?" He never asked, "do you partially believe". Believing is like the light bulb, it is either on or off. Any time electrical current flows through the filament of the bulb, it is "on" whether or not it is emitting light. The degree of light emitted is a factor of the amount of current flow through the element.

Belief is either "on" or "off", and the degree of manifestation of belief is dependent upon the amount of Jesus current one allows to flow through their element. That is why Jesus told us in John 3:18. No one who believes in him will be judged;
but whoever does not believe is judged already, because that person does not believe in the Name of God's only Son. Believing in the name of God's only Son is sufficient to be called "belief unto salvation". But it may not be sufficient to light the way for another unbeliever to become a believer. Even so, the belief is in the ON condition for the one.

Believing that George Washington existed historically does not cause one to become a patriot! Believing in the work that George did does enable patriotism. Believing that Jesus existed historically does not make one a Christian. Believing in Jesus' purpose for existing does.

 

[Frogman]

Does the light bulb by its will cause the electrical current to run through it thereby turning on the light, or is this done through an outside force acting upon it?

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Does the light bulb by its will cause the electrical current to run through it thereby turning on the light, or is this done through an outside force acting upon it?

Bro. Dallas

God is the provider, the socket in which the bulb is placed for excitation. God does not cause the light bulb to light. God made the bulb to light under the excitation of electricity. He made man to have the elements that get excited by His stimulous. Electricity applied to the bulb is the equivalent to the evidence provided by God whereby man must derive faith.
Throw the switch, God, to ON....Please!

 

[Frogman]

Still, the light bulb sits at the end of a potential current, is it the will of the bulb that makes that current kinetic? What is this current? If it is something eminating from the light bulb, there is no need to have the switch, the current is outside and independent of the bulb, it is the switch which delivers this to the bulb, since salvation comes from Grace, Titus 2.11, God is the one who operates the switch, thus sending forth the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit into the light bulb to illuminate it, even if the bulb does not receive this it is illuminated, if the current is resisted to enough degree the bulb element is shot, yet it remains a bulb. 2 Tim 2.13.

Thanks for the analogy, I was blessed.
God Bless.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Aki]

Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Aki:
but your answer does not satisfy. thus my question stands.

There is probably not much more explanation I could give. It doesn't really matter in the long run. Just be satisfied in Christ, brother.

</font>[/QUOTE]that's just it Ken. if you are a 5-pointer, you'll either be a double predesinarian or you would not be able to explain how can a non-elect be blamed personally when in fact he was condemned and "unable" due to something which is not of his own-doing.

and it does matter in the long run, for, as God will remain just, the non-elects will suffer everlasting torment. but how will God tell them why they are so condemned? will God hide the imputed sin and deal with the non-elects' personal sins and tell them that those are enough to condemn them? will God not tell them that they were actually condemned since birth due to God's sovereign act of imputing guilt to everyone, and that everyone is unable to respond to God due to a seminally transmitted inability?

or if God will consider the imputed sin, then the question is answered: they are not to responsible for their condemnation, yet they condemned anyway, though God remains just at that. but again, they are not responsible.

this, again, poses another challenge to calvinism, for it teaches that the non-elects are responsible for their own condemnation.

 

[KenH]

Since I believe in the total sovereignty of God, I have absolute total trust in God that He will bring all of His children home.

Man cannot save himself. Only God can save him. Man can do nothing. I trust God. And with that I am satisfied. He will either save me or damn me. I am His creature to do with as He will.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by KenH:
Since I believe in the total sovereignty of God, I have absolute total trust in God that He will bring all of His children home.

Man cannot save himself. Only God can save him. Man can do nothing. I trust God. And with that I am satisfied. He will either save me or damn me. I am His creature to do with as He will.

Amen.

Bro. Dallas