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Yelsew
Guest
The bulb completes the path for the current to flow. With an empty socket, you have an open circuit and current does not flow in an open circuit. Man is essential to the salvation equation.
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calvinists - just this one thing
- Thread starter Aki
- Start date
KenH
Well-Known Member
I urge you to lay aside your human pride, Yelsew. Your salvation or damnation, as well as mine, is totally in God's hands. He will do with you, and me, as He wills. Simply accept that fact. There is nothing you can do to stop God from working out His will. Quit kicking against the goads.
everything you said here is true, Ken. yet they are incomplete. you focus on God's work and sovereignty come salvation. but the issue being addressed here is at the opposite end. that is, condemnation. sure man cannot save himself. and true, only God can.Originally posted by KenH:
Man cannot save himself. Only God can save him. Man can do nothing. I trust God. And with that I am satisfied. He will either save me or damn me. I am His creature to do with as He will.
now how did man got to that state that he needs salvation? well, as your previous post stated, due to Adam's sin. you see God's salvation, and regard the means of condemnation as not important in the long run. but salvation and condemnation goes into eternity.
we cannot limit ourselves in focusing only on salvation. we should be clear on the means of condemnation. and that is something whcih is not of one's personal volition, but by virtue of sovereign imputation (of Adam's sin/guilt) and natural transmission (of the sin nature).
again you said, man cannot save himself and only God can. if God will save some then God is already gracious with that. but such analysis is incomplete until we put into consideration that it is not the sinner who decided for himself to get condemned.
God will either save you or condemn you. that's right. he will save you because of his sovereignty and grace. but why will he condemn you? is it because of what you did? nope! your volition was not practiced on that, since at birth you are already condemned. thus, one's volition do not play a role in his condemnation. and with the general call, man was also born with the inability to respond, according to calvinism.
please do not take this personlly, but maybe your statement that God will either condemn you or save you sums up to double predestination. but you deny it. however with that denial you are left with no firm answer. and what you did was to limit the issue from source of condemnation and salvation to only source of salvation.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Actually, it is. We sinned with Adam as well as being in Adam's loins as well as Adam representing all mankind in his testing period to keep God's law. I would hope none of us would have the audacity to claim that "If I had been in Adam's place, I would not have sinned. I would have been successful."
Also, I am re-thinking my position on "double predestination". I started reading an article on Monday on the subject of redemption and, perhaps with your prodding, I am beginning to see some possible truth in the "double predestination" position.
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Yelsew
Guest
Aki, Jesus said that condemnation comes from man's unbelief. Like Salvation, Condemnation is actually and finally executed by God. Condemnation was not imputed by God into man, it is the natural result of unbelief. God does not impute evil into man, but allows man to continue on his own until the judgement where God saves the believers while casting the unbelievers into the lake of fire.
KenH
Well-Known Member
It is not a matter of condemnation being imputed as it is simply a straight-out result of sin entering the world. But imputation is important as the only way to stand as righteous before God is for Christ Jesus' righteousness to be imputed to us as our sin was imputed to Him as He suffered the penalty for our sin on the cross.
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Yelsew
Guest
Clever phraseology, but what you've said is trumped by what Jesus said.
again you are correct...
Jesus said none can come to him except the Father draw him, and he said all who come he would in no wise cast out, then I believe that all who come do so only because of the drawing of the father...then Jesus said ...him I shall raise up at the last day...then I believe that this eternal life is just what Jesus said it was eternal and cannot be altered, or lost by any means.
And I am right too, the Bible declares that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess, then if your belief is correct and all do bow the knee and confess with the mouth that Christ is Lord, then all shall be saved!!
Let's shut down the BB, all churches and just go home...then maybe we can all just get along, we can let immorality, murders,killings robberies, cheatings, rapings all like such go unmolested in this world, after all we each have the right to please ourselves, so why not, then at the last day when we are asked whether we believe or not, because this foolishness that is preached that we had no interest in hearing in this world, thus denying the Glory owed to our creator, all men will in unison declare I believe and having stated it upon the lips, all men, by the Scripture must be redeemed, thus hell and the lake of fire will freeze over and we all shall live happily ever after.
Yelsew,
The word of God is not Mother Goose; it contains a mixture of the Grimm brothers as well.
Bro. Dallas
Jesus said none can come to him except the Father draw him, and he said all who come he would in no wise cast out, then I believe that all who come do so only because of the drawing of the father...then Jesus said ...him I shall raise up at the last day...then I believe that this eternal life is just what Jesus said it was eternal and cannot be altered, or lost by any means.
And I am right too, the Bible declares that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess, then if your belief is correct and all do bow the knee and confess with the mouth that Christ is Lord, then all shall be saved!!
Let's shut down the BB, all churches and just go home...then maybe we can all just get along, we can let immorality, murders,killings robberies, cheatings, rapings all like such go unmolested in this world, after all we each have the right to please ourselves, so why not, then at the last day when we are asked whether we believe or not, because this foolishness that is preached that we had no interest in hearing in this world, thus denying the Glory owed to our creator, all men will in unison declare I believe and having stated it upon the lips, all men, by the Scripture must be redeemed, thus hell and the lake of fire will freeze over and we all shall live happily ever after.
Yelsew,
The word of God is not Mother Goose; it contains a mixture of the Grimm brothers as well.
Bro. Dallas
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Yelsew
Guest
It is not a matter of condemnation being imputed as it is simply a straight-out result of sin entering the world. But imputation is important as the only way to stand as righteous before God is for Christ Jesus' righteousness to be imputed to us as our sin was imputed to Him as He suffered the penalty for our sin on the cross. </font>[/QUOTE]The purpose of Jesus dying on the cross is so that sin is not a factor at the final judgment. That judgment will be on the basis of belief or lack of belief. Believer's saved, unbelievers cast into the lake of fire.
If sin is so accounted for why do we still die by the wages thereof? If it so accounted for then why is the Bible clear to say they are judged according to their works?
All falls into place by the doctrine of Sovereign Grace;
Bro. Dallas
All falls into place by the doctrine of Sovereign Grace;
Bro. Dallas
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Yelsew
Guest
If that is what you believe, then you can throw the Book of Revelation out of your bible for even satan and his demons confess who Jesus is and will bow to His power.
Every knee bowing and every tongue confessing is not a salvation event, but rather an acknowledgement of the supreme power and majesty of Jesus. Some will bow in adoration of their savior, but most will bow in defeat before the victor, the Worthy Lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world! Then the judgment where the unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire.
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Yelsew
Guest
If sin were a factor at at the judgment throne of God, then why the atonement?
you are the one who said all that was necessary was belief, that all judgement was declared on belief, you are the one who beleives the atonement covered all sin, not me.
You said:
It was and is the covering for the sins of the elect, including unbelief, all sin is now atoned for among that heavenly host, now, past, future, wherever they are found to be, they are atoned for; to extend the atonement any further than these is unbiblical.
Bro. Dallas
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Yelsew
Guest
I am sorry you have such a low view of Christ Jesus' substitionary atonement, Yelsew. I know we do not agree on this very important subject and that saddens me.
What is so difficult that you cannot understand the plain truth?
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Yelsew
Guest
Talk about unbiblical, there is no scripture that supports your point of view.
Actually, it is. We sinned with Adam as well as being in Adam's loins as well as Adam representing all mankind in his testing period to keep God's law. I would hope none of us would have the audacity to claim that "If I had been in Adam's place, I would not have sinned. I would have been successful." </font>[/QUOTE]actually, it is and it is not! it is true that Adam perfectly represented us. with that, none can say i would have done otherwise should i have been in Adam's place. with that we became guilty. but is it due to our personal choice? no! it was due to our first father's choice. he represented us, and we became guilty due to that, and not because we would have actually done the same nor was present at the time Adam sinned.
true, should we have been given the same condition we would do the same as that of Adam. yet having the fact that we will do it does not qualify to get us guilty of actually doing it. but then we are still guilty, and that's because we were imputed of the guilt.
and no, we did not decide with Adam. Adam alone decided for himself, and his decision affected us. we were not condemned by our own volition, but that of our representative. thus, a born child has no choice but is condemned.
so with that, a non-elect is indeed guilty and condemned, and God is just. but still that non-elect did not cause his own guilt and condemnation.
that is actually the only thing i am commenting on calvinism. with those 5 points, God remains just, the non-elects remain guilty and condemned, but they did not cause their own condemnation. herein comes the contradiction, for calvinism states that each person is responsible for his own condemnation. but then again there are those calvinists who cannot be questioned with contradictions. they are the double predestinarians, which teach that both the elects and non-elects were elected and predestinated by God for their salvation or condemnation.
btw, i am not a calvinist nor a double-predestinarian. i am with the free-will side, though i believe both in imputed sin and transmitted sin nature as the calvinists do. i'm giving my arguments not to counter the "sovereignty" side using the "free will" side, but i'm using that of the calvinists alone and question them using their own teachings, with the points where i see a hole or contradictions.
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Yelsew
Guest
What verse are you referring to that states that the demons will bow their knees and confess that Jesus is Lord as people will do? </font>[/QUOTE]Rev 20:10. "Then the devil, who led them astray, was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet are, and their torture will not come to an end, day or night, for ever and ever". I used bow to his power to indicate their fate, you know, the "last man standing" scenario. I did not say that Satan and his demons will call Jesus Lord. I did say the will bow to his power.