Calvinists please help me as I am trying to understand.

[Tom Butler]

You said that Judas wasn't with the 12 during the Lord's supper, but scripture says this:

Lu*22:21 ¶ But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.

Does this not mean that Judas was there at the time Jesus spoke this?

Amy, James posted his answer while I was typing mine, so his answer and mine may parallel. The first three Gospels seem to indicate that Judas was present at both the Passover Meal and the institution of the Lord's Supper.

We distinguish the Passover meal by noting the references to "dipping the sop." Nothing was dipped during the Lord's Supper.

John 13 adds some clarifying language in v. 26: "Jesus answered and said, he it is to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. When he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.

Now, v 27 "And after the sop, Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly."

And then to v 30: "He then having received the stop, immediately went out; and it was night."

This seems to indicate that Judas was gone from there when Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper.

Thus, any effort to extrapolate a general atonement from those passages is undercut.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, James posted his answer while I was typing mine, so his answer and mine may parallel. The first three Gospels seem to indicate that Judas was present at both the Passover Meal and the institution of the Lord's Supper.

We distinguish the Passover meal by noting the references to "dipping the sop." Nothing was dipped during the Lord's Supper.

John 13 adds some clarifying language in v. 26: "Jesus answered and said, he it is to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. When he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.

Now, v 27 "And after the sop, Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly."

And then to v 30: "He then having received the stop, immediately went out; and it was night."

This seems to indicate that Judas was gone from there when Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper.

Thus, any effort to extrapolate a general atonement from those passages is undercut.

Hi Tom.

Yet in Luke it says clearly that Judas was present when Jesus lifted the cup for the new covenant in His blood. There seems to be a contradiction, but since I know God's word does not contradict itself, how can we explain this?

 

[Jerome]

Jesus: But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.

Does this not mean that Judas was there at the time Jesus spoke this?

Most would say no. I would agree with them.

Of course, fast onset leprosy. Judas had left his hand behind at the table, literally.
Scripture can't contradict Calvin, after all.

 

[Amy.G]

Jesus: But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.


Of course, fast onset leprosy. Judas had left his hand behind at the table, literally.
Scripture can't contradict Calvin, after all.

:laugh:

............................................

 

[J.D.]

Hi Tom.

Yet in Luke it says clearly that Judas was present when Jesus lifted the cup for the new covenant in His blood. There seems to be a contradiction, but since I know God's word does not contradict itself, how can we explain this?

Was Judas covenenanted?

 

[J.D.]

And we might find the words of Jesus appropriately applied here:

"I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen:" (John 13:18)

 

[Jarthur001]

Jesus: But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.

Maybe you failed to read my other two post. You should read and maybe you would understand.

Now I ask you Mr Jerome. When did Judus leave? Luke does not record when he left, but other passages do tell us. What is so hard to understand?

Of course, fast onset leprosy. Judas had left his hand behind at the table, literally.
Scripture can't contradict Calvin, after all.

Said like a true hater of Calvinist. You need to loss the hate my man.

I'm not sure you can find anyone that would claim Calvin overrides the Bible. I'm sure no Calvinist would say this. And if you can't it is nothing but hot air. I'll wait for your reply.

Now lets address this head on.

Do you believe the Lords table is for Non-believers??????

 

[Jarthur001]

:laugh:

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:wavey: :godisgood: :saint:

 

[Rippon]

And we might find the words of Jesus appropriately applied here:

"I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen:" (John 13:18)

Or John 17:12 "...None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that the Scripture would be fulfilled."(TNIV)

 

[Jarthur001]

Hi Tom.

Yet in Luke it says clearly that Judas was present when Jesus lifted the cup for the new covenant in His blood. There seems to be a contradiction, but since I know God's word does not contradict itself, how can we explain this?

I have posted why this is the case 2 other times. This will be the 3rd time. Tom has posted once. I'm not sure what you don't understand.

Read John 13...

Judas LEAVES before the Lords Supper. Yes...he was there for the meal..and also for the SOP. But then he left.

I'm sorry Luke does not record this, and I'm not sure why he did not, but it is clear what happened. What else can be said. I'm sorry this argument didn't work for you. Try to find a better one to deny Calvinism. Good luck.

 

[Amy.G]

Or John 17:12 "...None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that the Scripture would be fulfilled."(TNIV)

This is speaking of the 12. Judas betrayal was the fulfilled scripture. I think you've taken this verse out of context to support your view.

 

[Amy.G]

I have posted why this is the case 2 other times. This will be the 3rd time. Tom has posted once. I'm not sure what you don't understand.

Read John 13...

Judas LEAVES before the Lords Supper. Yes...he was there for the meal..and also for the SOP. But then he left.

I'm sorry Luke does not record this, and I'm not sure why he did not, but it is clear what happened. What else can be said. I'm sorry this argument didn't work for you. Try to find a better one to deny Calvinism. Good luck.

It's not that Luke doesn't record Judas leaving, but that Luke records something completely different. He says that Judas was there. That's what you have yet to explain. Are you saying that Luke is wrong?

 

[Jarthur001]

It's not that Luke doesn't record Judas leaving, but that Luke records something completely different. He says that Judas was there. That's what you have yet to explain. Are you saying that Luke is wrong?

Again let me post the order of events. Please look up the passages and see if this is not right. In fact there maybe a side by side chart out there that will help you. Try a google. Or maybe someone can post a link.

The Sequence..

1..Judas talks with the Chief priests about the money Luke 23:2-6

2...Than they ALL eat the Passover Supper Mark 14:17

JOHN 13..
3....Next... Jesus washes all their feet ....John 13:2-11
4....Next....Jesus say not ALL CLEAN, meaning Judas. ......13:11
5....Next...They talk about the meaning of the footwash. ......13:12, 28
6....Next....Jesus says it is but ONE that will betray him...... 13:21
7...NExt... They ask him..., "Is it me?"....This includes Judas 13:22-25)
8....Next... Jesus says...its the one that dips the SOP that will betray Him.....John 13:26
9....Next,.... Judas is told its him..... 13:27-30
10...NEXT........ Judas IMMEDIATELY LEAVES!!!!!....13:30
11...Next... the Lord's Supper. Matt. 26:26; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:19-20
12...Next... They sing a Hymn Mark 14:46

Amy, are you wanting to prove that it was ok with Jesus for Judas a non-believer to take part of the Lords Supper? Is this what your trying to prove?

 

[Amy.G]

According to Matthew 25, it appears Judas was there when Jesus lifted the cup.

Mt*26:23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.
Mt*26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
Mt*26:25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.
Mt*26:26 ¶ And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mt*26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;



It doesn't say that Judas left before the Lord's supper.



It is only in John that it appears that Judas left before the Lord's supper because it says that he went immediately out.

 

[Jarthur001]

It doesn't say that Judas left before the Lord's supper.



It is only in John that it appears that Judas left before the Lord's supper because it says that he went immediately out.

So...what do you make of this Amy? Was John fibbing or was luke and Matt quit?

Again...are you trying to prove that is was OK with Jesus...just fine and dandy for Judas to take part in the Lords Supper?

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, are you wanting to prove that it was ok with Jesus for Judas a non-believer to take part of the Lords Supper? Is this what your trying to prove?

No. As I said to begin with, Jesus gave His blood for all people, including Judas, which Luke plainly says.

Judas wasn't saved because he did not apply the atoning blood by putting his faith in Christ as his Lord and Savior.

 

[Amy.G]

So...what do you make of this Amy? Was John fibbing or was luke and Matt quit?

Again...are you trying to prove that is was OK with Jesus...just fine and dandy for Judas to take part in the Lords Supper?

Well, I'll ask you again. Is Luke wrong? You want to make your case from John 13 alone. But what about Luke 22?

 

[Jarthur001]

Well, I'll ask you again. Is Luke wrong? You want to make your case from John 13 alone. But what about Luke 22?

I'm using all accounts Amy. Luke just does not write about it. Sorry about that on your account. You have been shown, its up to you if you want to believe. My view sees all accounts right. You view says one or more of the gospels are wrong. I don't know. Its pretty easy for me to pick which one to go with.

I see no need to go on about this Lords Supper thing. You can have the last word and I'll leave you to believe as you wish.

 

[Amy.G]

I'm using all accounts Amy. Luke just does not write about it. Sorry about that on your account. You have been shown, its up to up if you want to believe. I see no need to go on about this Lords Supper thing. You can have the last word and I'll leave you to believe as you wish.

James, John doesn't even record the Lord's supper. What does that say to you? It says to me that he did not record all of the events, but Luke fills in the gaps for us. Can't you see that?


Luke records the very words of Jesus. "He whose hand is on the table with Mine will betray Me." Was Luke lying? Mistaken? Were Luke's words not part of inspired scripture?


You can ignore it, but either Luke's account is true or it's not.


And I'm not "believing as I wish". I'm believing scripture.

 

[J.D.]

James, John doesn't even record the Lord's supper. What does that say to you? It says to me that he did not record all of the events, but Luke fills in the gaps for us. Can't you see that?


Luke records the very words of Jesus. "He whose hand is on the table with Mine will betray Me." Was Luke lying? Mistaken? Were Luke's words not part of inspired scripture?

While I agree that the order of events are often disputed, nevertheless most commentaries I've read state that John is the one that fills in gaps in the narrative.