Calvinists

[Reynolds]

What is the perfect theory?

 

[Zaatar71]

Yours is a human interpretation with a Calvinist slant,

Yes, Calvinists are all human,and read and understand scripture for what it is teaching.

in the sense that it is rooting Christ's words as applying to God's design and supervening purposes before the foundation of the world, whereas the more natural context to John 6:44 is the temporal God<->human dynamic in the here and now.

It's most unclear why the Calvinist insists on interpreting John 6:44 as you do.

because the text says so!

Consider: Israelite prophecy and teaching is not, in general or at all, given to expouding double-predestination, but rather given to describing temporal events, sins and God's current relationship with the Israelites, and calls by God to repentance. One could question whether Jesus ever had your view in mind. So,

israelite teaching and understanding got it wrong as you do now!

“No one can come to Me [i.e. now, this very moment]

It does not say or modify it to mean...at this very moment. It simply states No Man Can!

unless the Father who sent Me [election is predicated on man's willingness to respond to God, viz. Psalm 40:6-8 and Hebrews 10:5-7]

Psalm 40 is speaking about the incarnate body of the Lord Jesus Christ, and not man in this passage at all!

draws him [God's grace is accepted - as opposed to it being rejected due to unrepentant sin & hardening the heart];

No, it is describing what is known as the EFFECTUAL CALL.

and I will raise him up on the last day [the saints remain in God's grace].” - John 6:44.

Here is Ellicott's commentary on John 6:44 "No man can come to me.—The subject is still the mystery of the varying effects of His revelation on the minds of men. These depend upon their present mental state, which is itself the result of acceptance of, or rejection of, divine influence.

This psychobabble is not found in scripture anywhere! You anti-cal have vivid dreams to come up with such entertaining ideas, but at the same time you reject scripture to do so. men's present mental state???

The Father which sent Him had, by law, and prophets, and worship, been preparing them. The history of each individual life had been a succession, in every conscious hour, of influences for good or for evil. The mind stood between these, and willed for one or other. He who day by day, with all his light and strength, however little that all might have been, had sought the pure, and true, and good—had sought really to know God—was drawn of God, and he only it was who could now come to Him whom God sent. Others were drawn of evil, because they had submitted themselves to its power. They had chosen darkness, and could not now see the light; they had bound themselves in the silken cords of sin, which had hardened into fetters of iron; they had lost themselves in the labyrinths of what they thought wisdom, and did not recognise the true and living way which was opened for them."

This is what is described as total depravity. That is why God elected a multitude to be saved or they never would be!

 

[JonC]

What is the perfect theory?

There is not a perfect theory. That is why they are called "theories".

I think the better question is why many gravitate to theories rather than leaning on every word that comes from God.

If we all simply trusted Scripture we would still have disagreements, but our disagreements would be different interpretations and emphasis in God's Word rather than differences in theories about what the Bibke "really" teaches.

I know this will never happen, but it woukd be nice if we all turned to God rather than men for doctrine.

 

[KenH]

if we all turned to God

I thank God that He opened my heart and mind to His Word and delivered me from the false teachings I spent the first sixty-five and a half years of my life being deceived by. It was not I that sought God, but God that sought me. The Shepherd searches for His lost sheep, finds every one of them, and brings every one of them home; the lost sheep don't seek the Shepherd.

 

[atpollard]

But you continue to ignore what Christ said: "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." Joh 12:32

My comment was directed to @cjab as a personal observation in direct response to his comments. So I am “ignoring” nothing, rather I was offering a very specific response to a very specific conversation.

If as you are teaching @atpollard that everyone drawn will be raised up then you are teaching universalism.


But that is not what we see in scripture is it?

It is not I who was teaching it … it is what John 6:44 specifically states.

John 6:44 [YLT] no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;

There is only ONE “him” identified.
… that “him” is DRAWN.
… that “him” also “will be RAISED”.

Jesus said it and the Apostle John recorded it, so please do not blame me for their words.

 

[Zaatar71]

I thank God that He opened my heart and mind to His Word and delivered me from the false teachings I spent the first sixty-five and a half years of my life being deceived by. It was not I that sought God, but God that sought me. The Shepherd searches for His lost sheep, finds every one of them, and brings every one of them home; the lost sheep don't seek the Shepherd.

You are stating the truth of God. These men seek to oppose it. You are doing what you are called upon to do.

 

[atpollard]

All of us that are biblical will disagree with the calvinist view because it is not found in scripture.

Go for it.
I have no issue with anyone agreeing with Free Will or Arminianism or with anyone disagreeing with the Doctrines of Grace. As I have stated previously, changing hearts is the job of the Holy Spirit not mine (it is above my pay grade).

 

[cjab]

Yes, Calvinists are all human,and read and understand scripture for what it is teaching.

Not in my view.

because the text says so!

The text does not say so. The verb tense of δύναμαι (is able) is present. The present is therefore inferred.

israelite teaching and understanding got it wrong as you do now!

I am talking about what the prophets said. Did they get it wrong? I think not.

It does not say or modify it to mean...at this very moment. It simply states No Man Can

Present is present.

!

Psalm 40 is speaking about the incarnate body of the Lord Jesus Christ, and not man in this passage at all!

Psalm demonstrates why the elect are elect, as opposed to other men who aren't elect.

No, it is describing what is known as the EFFECTUAL CALL.

"The effectual call" is not found in the bible, by which I mean there is no biblical differentiation in the calling of those called ineffectually and those called effectually.

This psychobabble is not found in scripture anywhere! You anti-cal have vivid dreams to come up with such entertaining ideas, but at the same time you reject scripture to do so. men's present mental state???

Needless knit picking. I asssume the commentator's usage of "mental state" was intended to infer "spiritual state," where spiritual state and states of mind are not unrelated: Philippians 4:6-7 etc.

This is what is described as total depravity. That is why God elected a multitude to be saved or they never would be!

It is true that salvation is of God.

 

[cjab]

In John 6:44-45, have you ever pondered why it keeps stating terms like “all” and “no one” and “everyone” if it is “man’s choice” that makes the difference?

Most that argue over these verses prefer to focus on the “no one can” opening phrase, but I was always more fascinated by the fact that EVERY person drawn (without exception) will be raised on the last day and every person taught by the Father (without exception) will come to the son. The 100% nature of the thing seems significant.

It is most unclear to me why so many anti-Calvinists (since most go far beyond simply disagreeing to visceral hatred of TULIP) insist on ignoring these clues in John 6:44-45.

You're reading too much into John 6:44-45. Jesus is stating the purpose of coming to Jesus, why God ordains it, that the Father enables it, as well as the conditions for coming to Jesus in v. 45.

Jesus doesn't say that "every person drawn will be raised on the last day:" see the parables of Christ, especially the parables of the sower and of the virgins awaiting the feast of the bridegroom. Yours is the Calvinist interpretation.

In John 6:45, Jesus puts the emphasis firmly on men to listen to his Father, to ensure that they will be drawn: "Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me." IOW, if you reject Moses, you will reject Christ. Jesus states this over and again e.g. : Luke 16:31.

Visceral hatred of TULIP? I don't like it, certainly, but the world did without it for 1900 years, so presumably it's optional. I can't grasp the logic of elevating TULIP to biblical status when it isn't in the bible, except perhaps the "perseverance of the saints," but otherwise TULIP is indigestible without special pleading, but I've no time for that.