Calvin's Amillennialism and Infant Baptism

[Greektim]

That's not an asinine statement considering that amillennialism is a heretical doctrine that denies the scriptures, and denies the covenant that God promised to Israel, and ignores the plain teaching of Revelation 20:4. It is a ROMAN CATHOLIC doctrine.

By extension then I am a heretic, along w/ many other faithful followers of Jesus?

And why is it that the only thing you take literal in Rev 60 is the 1k years but see the rest as symbolic??? And why would you be so narrow minded to think that this is about Rev 20? And who said I threw out a covenant w/ Israel? You are the one denying that all the covenants have already found their fulfillment in Jesus (according to Paul). Jesus redefined Israel around himself, choosing 12 disciples. Anyone who knows how to read literature can see that.

I may not call you a heretic, but I would say that you are foolish in your understanding of Scripture. The Bible is not a theology book filled w/ stories of history written beforehand that you have to cut and paste to make your future timeline. The Bible is God's story. Nothing you write about has anything to do w/ the mission found in the garden of Eden. Where does Israel fit with that? Where does the church? Answer those questions cogently and then I will consider your views a bit more credible.

PS-to say Amill is RCC demonstrates you know very little history. But even if it were, I arrived at that conclusion w/out their help. So maybe even a broken clock can be right once or twice a day.

 

[Iconoclast]

Greektim

I may not call you a heretic, but I would say that you are foolish in your understanding of Scripture

.

Careful GT....you used the word foolish and ACH is very sensitive to any terms spoken about his posts....

and yet, he can call other peoples posts...silly....or say that they are like Mormons and taoists, heretics and murderers, amillenial heretics...even vitriolic:laugh::laugh:

See how it works GT?.....all christian teachers, confessions and creeds, mean nothing.....only what ACH says matters
.What were you thinking GT?

By playing the "victim" he can avoid hundreds of years of Christian teaching and instead of working through it....he can just place them outside his dispensational box, and ignore them:wavey:

He takes Jn 16:13 out of context completely to be able to claim that he personally is guided into all truth...see it now GT?

 

[DrJamesAch]

.

By extension then I am a heretic, along w/ many other faithful followers of Jesus?

If the shoe fits.......

And why is it that the only thing you take literal in Rev 60 is the 1k years but see the rest as symbolic???

So do you propose that we interpret the entire Bible symbolically? If not, then that means there are obvious times when exegeting scripture you can tell the difference between the literal, hyberbole, symbolic etc..When John 11:35 says "Jesus wept", that's pretty simply. It means Jesus wept. When the Bibles says out of their bellies shall flow rivers of living water, that is obviously symbolic because rivers don't literally flow from our bellies.

Thus when the Bible says that we shall rule and reign with Christ a thousand years, there is nothing in the text that suggests that this is symobolic. The ruling isn't symbolic, the reigning isn't symbolic, years is not symbolic and a thousand is not symbolic. There are numerous symbolisms in Revelation, but the symbolism is clear, and Rev 20:4 isn't one of those passages.

And why would you be so narrow minded to think that this is about Rev 20?

Probably because that's where the timing of the millennial period is found.

And who said I threw out a covenant w/ Israel? You are the one denying that all the covenants have already found their fulfillment in Jesus (according to Paul). Jesus redefined Israel around himself, choosing 12 disciples. Anyone who knows how to read literature can see that.

The millennial kingdom is fulfilling a covenant God made with Israel. To deny the millennial reign is to deny that covenant.

The rest of this comment makes absolutely no sense. When it comes to the role of Israel and the church (2 separate issues) you stick to literature, I'll stick to Romans ch 9-11.

I may not call you a heretic, but I would say that you are foolish in your understanding of Scripture.

Gee, I've never heard that one before.

The Bible is not a theology book filled w/ stories of history written beforehand

"For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." Romans 15:4

The Bible is God's story. Nothing you write about has anything to do w/ the mission found in the garden of Eden

Thou shalt not do drugs. Willie Mays couldn't catch that one. Your view of first things is way off base.

Where does Israel fit with that? Where does the church? Answer those questions cogently and then I will consider your views a bit more credible.

Where does the church and Israel fit with what? the garden of Eden? What are you smoking?

PS-to say Amill is RCC demonstrates you know very little history. But even if it were, I arrived at that conclusion w/out their help. So maybe even a broken clock can be right once or twice a day.

The RCC is and always has been amillennial. You can arrive at that conclusion all you want, it doesn't remove Rev 20:4 from the Bible.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

 

[DrJamesAch]

Greektim

.

Careful GT....you used the word foolish and ACH is very sensitive to any terms spoken about his posts....

and yet, he can call other peoples posts...silly....or say that they are like Mormons and taoists, heretics and murderers, amillenial heretics...even vitriolic:laugh::laugh:

I am responding to what YOU started. You sound like a Muslim that bombs Israel, and then blames Israel for responding back.

See how it works GT?.....all christian teachers, confessions and creeds, mean nothing.....only what ACH says matters
.What were you thinking GT?

Somebody sounds upset that there are Bible believers that can refute their nonsense.

By playing the "victim" he can avoid hundreds of years of Christian teaching and instead of working through it....he can just place them outside his dispensational box, and ignore them:wavey:

I avoid "hundreds of years" of teaching because I have THOUSANDS OF YEARS that existed before Calvin to go on.

He takes Jn 16:13 out of context completely to be able to claim that he personally is guided into all truth...see it now GT?

Wow really? I said that? Post # please

Not surprised that you are sucking up to someone that holds doctrines that you yourself have said you were not in agreement with. You need all the help you can get I understand. It's called "co-dependency". That's the disorder where a person can't function without another person (i.e. Calvin ring a bell?)

 

[Iconoclast]

Ach

I am responding to what YOU started. You sound like a Muslim that bombs Israel, and then blames Israel for responding back.

So when we respond to your attacks it is okay,after all....

Somebody sounds upset that there are Bible believers that can refute their nonsense.

You have yet to refute anything...still you have not responded biblically to passage after passage.....You can call the confessions of faith nonsense if you want to....but that is why you lack understanding on the positions you claim you understand. We point out your clear lack of understanding of the teaching, and not only do you not own up to it....but then you whine about how the evil calvinists are so mean to you..

Now we are all manner of evil,and cult like....lol get a grip on yourself ACH.

I avoid "hundreds of years" of teaching because I have THOUSANDS OF YEARS that existed before Calvin to go on.

Moses was a Calvinist, so was David, and all the prohets...the reason is because the believe God.Jesus taught Calvinism....He revealed these truths known as Calvinism...starting in Gen 1:1...all the way to the end.
Hint,,,,the Covenant does not start with physical Israel...it actually is made with Jesus the True Israel and us in Him...It was made in Him before the world was created.Take a look at Isa 49.

National Israel failed as the covenant son...ex 4;22.....like Adam failed.

Jesus the Servant of the Lord...does not fail Isa 49;1-8. Mt2;15...Jesus the New Exodus.
Out of Egypt I have called My SON...
Another thing.....the reign of revelation 20 is now.....It is from the Heavenly Jerusalem and Zion...no where in rev. 20 does it say the reign is on the earth as it's point of origin....The true holy place is heaven itself.

Wow really? I said that? Post # please

Yes you did...you offered three verses and it was the third one you offered,look it up for yourself.I looked up your posts enough for you already.
it was when you were vainly boasting of using the bible alone,as if no one else uses a bible.

Not surprised that you are sucking up to someone that holds doctrines that you yourself have said you were not in agreement with. You need all the help you can get I understand. It's called "co-dependency". That's the disorder where a person can't function without another person (i.e. Calvin ring a bell?

)

:thumbs: nice try my friend....you cannot answer so you look to put me down...I understand your frustration....this has become a ritual that all seem to want to do when they come into BB on the anti-cal Jihad.

Ach....if you paid a lot of money for your "studies"....show them your failed posts...and demand a REFUND:thumbs:.....you are also a lawyer...bring a lawsuit for theological malpractice:thumbsup:

Like I suspected.....your agenda was revealed early on, many have spotted it as it is not new, You have been asked to move ahead scripturally, but you offer ....THIS....instead??? You get what you asked for, but scriptural discussion is a better way to go.

ps..here is your statement in this thread post 21

From that axiom, the Bible says "they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in TRUTH". John 4:24, and "if any man will do his will he shall KNOW of the doctrine" John 7:17. The Bible says the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth. John 16:13.

This promise is given directly to the Apostles as were those in chapter 14,and 15.....The bible no where says ...you ACH...will be guided into all truth...supposed king of hermenutics that you wanted to lecture us on!!!

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
ACH...you were not present when Jesus spoke these words
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Ach...the Spirit cannot bring to your remembrance what you were not there to hear

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

[I]This is why we know we have a sure word from God , the Apostles, not you ACH..were given all we need to know,[/I]

 

[DrJamesAch]

Ach



So when we respond to your attacks it is okay,after all....


You have yet to refute anything...still you have not responded biblically to passage after passage.....You can call the confessions of faith nonsense if you want to....but that is why you lack understanding on the positions you claim you understand. We point out your clear lack of understanding of the teaching, and not only do you not own up to it....but then you whine about how the evil calvinists are so mean to you..

Now we are all manner of evil,and cult like....lol get a grip on yourself ACH.


Moses was a Calvinist, so was David, and all the prohets...the reason is because the believe God.Jesus taught Calvinism....He revealed these truths known as Calvinism...starting in Gen 1:1...all the way to the end.
Hint,,,,the Covenant does not start with physical Israel...it actually is made with Jesus the True Israel and us in Him...It was made in Him before the world was created.Take a look at Isa 49.

National Israel failed as the covenant son...ex 4;22.....like Adam failed.

Jesus the Servant of the Lord...does not fail Isa 49;1-8. Mt2;15...Jesus the New Exodus.
Out of Egypt I have called My SON...
Another thing.....the reign of revelation 20 is now.....It is from the Heavenly Jerusalem and Zion...no where in rev. 20 does it say the reign is on the earth as it's point of origin....The true holy place is heaven itself.



Yes you did...you offered three verses and it was the third one you offered,look it up for yourself.I looked up your posts enough for you already.
it was when you were vainly boasting of using the bible alone,as if no one else uses a bible.



)

:thumbs: nice try my friend....you cannot answer so you look to put me down...I understand your frustration....this has become a ritual that all seem to want to do when they come into BB on the anti-cal Jihad.

Ach....if you paid a lot of money for your "studies"....show them your failed posts...and demand a REFUND:thumbs:.....you are also a lawyer...bring a lawsuit for theological malpractice:thumbsup:

Like I suspected.....your agenda was revealed early on, many have spotted it as it is not new, You have been asked to move ahead scripturally, but you offer ....THIS....instead??? You get what you asked for, but scriptural discussion is a better way to go.

ps..here is your statement in this thread post 21


This promise is given directly to the Apostles as were those in chapter 14,and 15.....The bible no where says ...you ACH...will be guided into all truth...supposed king of hermenutics that you wanted to lecture us on!!!

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
ACH...you were not present when Jesus spoke these words
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Ach...the Spirit cannot bring to your remembrance what you were not there to hear

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

[I]This is why we know we have a sure word from God , the Apostles, not you ACH..were given all we need to know,[/I]

I'm going to avoid responding to this particular comment for one simple reason, and I will give you a chance to retract what you said:

"Jesus taught Calvinism"

That borders on blasphemy. The only thing Jesus taught were the things concerning Himself. Luke 24:27. I get that this is an anachronism in that Calvin was 1500 years later, but if claim to be a believer, I would NEVER, EVER ((NEVER מעולם לא)) slap the name of Jesus onto another man's theology.

Not only for the above reason but you even agreed that there were several things that Calvin taught that you do not agree with. Saying Jesus taught Calvinism is attributing ALL of Calvin's teachings to Jesus or rather, Jesus teachings to Calvinism.

 

[Iconoclast]

I'm going to avoid responding to this particular thread for one simple reason, and I will give you a chance to retract what you said:

"Jesus taught Calvinism"

That borders on blasphemy. The only thing Jesus taught were the things concerning Himself. Luke 24:27. I get that this is an anachronism in that Calvin was 1500 years later, but if claim to be a believer, I would NEVER, EVER ((NEVER מעולם לא)) slap the name of Jesus onto another man's theology.

The teaching belongs to Jesus
the teaching comes from God.
That doctrine is known as .....calvinism....

I did not make the term up. IT exists and is understood.
I can teach...calvinism....from the gospel of John alone.....with the OT all of which were written before Calvin was born or looked at a bible.

I do not run away from the term, because that is how it is historically known, but the teaching comes from Jesus..plain and simple
As long as john;6:37-44 is in the bible....the teaching stands no matter what you want to call it, or not call it....Jesus taught in all through Jn, every chapter...it is everywhere.

we can call it Jesusism if that would make everyone happy....it is the doctrine taught , not the term that is at issue.

With all this , you have not addressed Jn 16;13....the context.

You did not address the heavenly zion and jerusalem

 

[DrJamesAch]

The teaching belongs to Jesus
the teaching comes from God.
That doctrine is known as .....calvinism....

I did not make the term up. IT exists and is understood.
I can teach...calvinism....from the gospel of John alone.....with the OT all of which were written before Calvin was born or looked at a bible.

I do not run away from the term, because that is how it is historically known, but the teaching comes from Jesus..plain and simple
As long as john;6:37-44 is in the bible....the teaching stands no matter what you want to call it, or not call it....Jesus taught in all through Jn, every chapter...it is everywhere.

we can call it Jesusism if that would make everyone happy....it is the doctrine taught , not the term that is at issue.

With all this , you have not addressed Jn 16;13....the context.

Please show me where Jesus taught infant baptism and murdering citizens was OK?

And if the millennial kingdom is now, just when did it start? And when did all of the events in Revelation come to pass?

 

[jonathanD]

When 99% of people call themselves calvinists, they are speaking of their soteriology.

 

[Iconoclast]

http://www.gracechurchofdupage.org/israel.html

the government was trying to close this down...have you seen it?

 

[Iconoclast]

When 99% of people call themselves calvinists, they are speaking of their soteriology.

:thumbs::applause::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

Please show me where Jesus taught infant baptism and murdering citizens was OK?

And if the millennial kingdom is now, just when did it start? And when did all of the events in Revelation come to pass?

I was taught the premill scheme first and held it for years...can still teach it...I am in between postmill/amill now...because of the book of Hebrews....

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.

We have entered...he is speaking now from heaven, ruling in the midst of His enemies
110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek

This passage is quoted 6x in the nt.....it is a heavenly reign until the last day,
the gospel is going worldwide...in the midst of His enemies now....like the parable of the mustard seed...

psalm 22:
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.

29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

isa2:
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

joel2
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

joel3
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

 

[DrJamesAch]

I was taught the premill scheme first and held it for years...can still teach it...I am in between postmill/amill now...because of the book of Hebrews....

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.

We have entered...he is speaking now from heaven, ruling in the midst of His enemies
110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek

This passage is quoted 6x in the nt.....it is a heavenly reign until the last day,
the gospel is going worldwide...in the midst of His enemies now....like the parable of the mustard seed...

psalm 22:
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.

29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

isa2:
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

joel2
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

joel3
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

The mistake most make with Hebrews is trying to fit all of it into the contemporary church. There is a reason it is address to HEBREWS (Jews) specifically. Much of the book of Hebrews is addressing the tribulation Jews which is yet future. There are numerous truths that are awesome in revealing OT rites and how they revealed Christ, but DOCTRINALLY, there is a large part of Hebrews that does not apply to the church.

Regarding, the millennium, I have written an article on my site regarding the problems of Preterism, Historicism and Covenant Theology that addresses the issues of the dating of Revelation, the events of Revelation that have yet to be fulfilled, and the problem with the Replacement Theology (Israel has become the church). Most of the arguments apply equally to amillenialism or post. http://dorightchristians.wordpress....-preterism-historicism-and-covenant-theology/

 

[saturneptune]

And the above comes from one known for his mendacious conduct on a repeated basis.

edited......

 

[Greektim]

If the shoe fits.......


So do you propose that we interpret the entire Bible symbolically? If not, then that means there are obvious times when exegeting scripture you can tell the difference between the literal, hyberbole, symbolic etc..When John 11:35 says "Jesus wept", that's pretty simply. It means Jesus wept. When the Bibles says out of their bellies shall flow rivers of living water, that is obviously symbolic because rivers don't literally flow from our bellies.

Thus when the Bible says that we shall rule and reign with Christ a thousand years, there is nothing in the text that suggests that this is symobolic. The ruling isn't symbolic, the reigning isn't symbolic, years is not symbolic and a thousand is not symbolic. There are numerous symbolisms in Revelation, but the symbolism is clear, and Rev 20:4 isn't one of those passages.


Probably because that's where the timing of the millennial period is found.


The millennial kingdom is fulfilling a covenant God made with Israel. To deny the millennial reign is to deny that covenant.

The rest of this comment makes absolutely no sense. When it comes to the role of Israel and the church (2 separate issues) you stick to literature, I'll stick to Romans ch 9-11.


Gee, I've never heard that one before.

"For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." Romans 15:4


Thou shalt not do drugs. Willie Mays couldn't catch that one. Your view of first things is way off base.

Where does the church and Israel fit with what? the garden of Eden? What are you smoking?

The RCC is and always has been amillennial. You can arrive at that conclusion all you want, it doesn't remove Rev 20:4 from the Bible.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

The majority of your post is drivel. But the fact that you have no way to fit the garden of eden into your eschatological scheme tells me you do eschatology in a vacuum. But it is the ending of a story. The only way to understand the end is if you know what the beginning is all about. Gen. 1-11 directs the grand drama of Scripture w/ 12 being the turning point of redemption. You eschatology is no better than any other sci fi novel b/c it does not cohere to redemptive history.

 

[DrJamesAch]

The majority of your post is drivel. But the fact that you have no way to fit the garden of eden into your eschatological scheme tells me you do eschatology in a vacuum. But it is the ending of a story. The only way to understand the end is if you know what the beginning is all about. Gen. 1-11 directs the grand drama of Scripture w/ 12 being the turning point of redemption. You eschatology is no better than any other sci fi novel b/c it does not cohere to redemptive history.

Well thank you for that well thought out rebuttal that pretty much said absolutely nothing.

I'm wondering why John never quoted one verse of Genesis in twenty-two chapters of Revelation. The last and final book on prophecy doesn't mention one word about your theory on protology. When John was told to write Revelation, he was told to write:

"Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which ARE and the things which shall be HEREAFTER' Rev 1:19

There is a reason why end time prophecy is called eschatology and not protology. Revelation 1:19 shows you don't what you're talking about.

Protology is helpful if you use it correctly. It can explain sin, and even the foundations of Israel, but it is not the primary emphasis of end time prophecy because Christ's work is finished and the Bible emphasizes more about where we are GOING then where we've BEEN after one is saved. Protology is the study of FIRST things, not PAST things which is where you are misinterpreting the philosophy. There IS a difference

The one thing for certain that protology does NOT do is eliminate a thousand year reign which is clearly taught in Revelation, and none of the events in Revelation have come to pass.

 

[Greektim]

Well thank you for that well thought out rebuttal that pretty much said absolutely nothing.

Those with ears to hear....

I'm wondering why John never quoted one verse of Genesis in twenty-two chapters of Revelation. The last and final book on prophecy doesn't mention one word about your theory on protology. When John was told to write Revelation, he was told to write:

"Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which ARE and the things which shall be HEREAFTER' Rev 1:19

Well done scholar. John doesn't quote any passage of the OT. However, he alludes to Genesis all over. Rev 21-22 are the most overt. But if you can't see that, then it probably b/c you don't read the Bible as literature. And the fact that new creation is simply a restored and more fully realized garden of eden demonstrates that John was simply finishing the story begun in Gen. 1-11. This isn't my theory. Those who engage in biblical theology (since you probably don't know what that is, just know it is a discipline of theology opposed to historical or systematic or ect) follow the thread and seam all throughout Scripture. This is something dispensationalism lacks considerably.

There is a reason why end time prophecy is called eschatology and not protology. Revelation 1:19 shows you don't what you're talking about.

You must have a reading disability. I never called eschatology protology. I have only said that a good eschatology must cohere with a sound protology. Yet you seem to think that there is no relationship to the story whatsoever. Man, I'm glad I'm out of fundamentalism!

Protology is helpful if you use it correctly. It can explain sin, and even the foundations of Israel, but it is not the primary emphasis of end time prophecy because Christ's work is finished and the Bible emphasizes more about where we are GOING then where we've BEEN after one is saved. Protology is the study of FIRST things, not PAST things which is where you are misinterpreting the philosophy. There IS a difference

Aside from your oversimplification of protology which borders on ridiculousness, the only way you can grasp a coherent method of "where we are going" you have to know the trajectory. That is what Gen. 1-11 does. It sets the stage for God's mission which starts w/ Adam and is transferred on to Abraham and Israel and eventually fulfilled by Jesus and the church.

The one thing for certain that protology does NOT do is eliminate a thousand year reign which is clearly taught in Revelation, and none of the events in Revelation have come to pass.

That's only b/c they are not events. You can't see this though b/c you have no idea about its genre and how to read it as literature. Rev. doesn't even unfold chronologically. So it can't simply be future scripted beforehand. And if you keep waiting for things "clearly taught in Revelation" then you will spend your eternity in disappointment.

By the way... where are you spending eternity and what will you be doing?

 

[preacher4truth]

Man, I'm glad I'm out of fundamentalism!

Amen to that!!!

 

[HeirofSalvation]

See how it works GT?.....all christian teachers, confessions and creeds, mean nothing.....only what ACH says matters

Well, if you are a Baptist...than one thing is for sure:

Creeds DO mean less than nothing. Baptists are "non-creedal" and by definition. Accept that fact, or cease pretending you are a Baptist. There is such a thing as the "Other Denominations" section of this forum. Baptists are not CREEDAL and it is a specific distinctive of who and what we are, inseparable from the term "Baptist" itself.

"Confessions" mean something.......just not a whole lot, since anyone can cherry-pick the ones they like and discard the others.

i.e. You, for example, would reject the oldest Baptist Confession in favour of one which already agrees with your presuppositions [London Baptist]. Thus, it doesn't mean a whole lot since it speaks with no authority whatsoever. Similarly, when you quote it as though it contains some modicum of authority especially in a thread wherein people are disagreeing with you......it's laughably meaningless since anyone can pick and choose to adhere to any given confession they feel like adhering to, and that!!!!......on any given day! :laugh:

Icon....creeds mean ZILCH NIL NADA....and anyone who thinks they do is simply no Baptist whatsoever. If you believe they do, then you are no Baptist.

I don't want to be a Papist............but, if I wanted to surrender my own freedom of conscience....I'd choose a Papal system before a bloated bureacracy of Theological Oligarchs. At least a Spiritual Monarchy isn't as unweildy as a tyrrany of some committee of men who assumed room temperature 400 years ago. If I were to surrender "Soul Freedom"....I'd go all in to Papism, since, as Cromwell once said...
"An immovable Parliament is more obnoxious than an immovable King."

The Reformation did nothing more than off-load a Spiritual Monarch and replace it with a committee of bickering Nicolaitaines.....You can have them, and take all the "Reformers" with you.

I, for one, am a Baptist.

 

[preachinjesus]

Apologies for the delay in replying here, we've had a busy ministry week.

That is because they take it from the OT root,and believes it carries over...that there is a covenant continuity.They have a biblical position....I do not believe it is the correct biblical position however.

Fair enough. I do believe they have a position to articulate that has coherence, I just don't, like you, accept it as the correct biblical position.