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Calvnism getting hammered lately on this board

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Originally Posted by BobRyan


[QUOTE
You object to the Gospel as Paul presents it in Romans 2 (highlighted in red" in the quote above for all to see the glaringly obvious point - so then you blame Romans 2 on me -- as if I wrote it!

the gospel???? why are you concerned?

Concerning some of her revelations: "In one of her visions her accompanying angels told her that the time of salvation for all sinners ended in 1844

On pages 42-45 of Early Writings, Mrs. White describes a closing of a door in the holy place of the heavenly sanctuary, and an opening in the most holy place (in 1844), that the "midnight cry" was finished at the seventh month 1844, (see p.43), that then was the "sealing time", and that the time for salvation for sinners had passed (p.45).
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
the gospel???? why are you concerned?

I am concerned about the Gospel on this section of the board because it tells us there is a problem with the Calvinist model.

As we saw on yet "another thread" that "is not closed".


This is a great highlight on Spurgeon's view of a key doctrine in Calvinism - as we find it in the "Baptist Confession of Faith"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed

4. Others are not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may experience some common operations of the Spirit, yet because they are not effectually drawn by the Father, they will not and cannot truly come to Christ and therefore cannot be saved. Much less can men who do not embrace the Christian religion be saved, however diligent they may be to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the requirements of the religion they profess.


Clearly the statement above identified without question what Calvinism considers to be the determining element in all cases where one person is lost and another saved.


But in so doing - Spurgeon is stuck at the point of making God the author of His own "lament".


Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan


[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God's question on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about in t[FONT=&quot]he verse above[/FONT].

[FONT=&quot]I[FONT=&quot]n Calvinism i[/FONT][/FONT]f the result is wrong if it is to be lamented if the question [FONT=&quot]is to be asked "What more could have been done" w[FONT=&quot]ell [/FONT][/FONT]then Calvinism argues He [FONT=&quot]knows exactly what He failed to do [/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]in effect [/FONT] sabotaging His own plans - the cause of His own "lament" - or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.

[FONT=&quot]================================

[FONT=&quot]God's "lament" does not ask "what more could the LOST have done that they have not done" because He knows[FONT=&quot] exactly wh[FONT=&quot]at THEY could h[FONT=&quot]av[FONT=&quot]e [FONT=&quot]done.

[FONT=&quot]Rather [FONT=&quot]G[FONT=&quot]od asks[FONT=&quot] 'What MOR[FONT=&quot]E could I HAVE done that I did not do?" -- the very ques[FONT=&quot]tion [FONT=&quot]all Calvinists claim to have the answer for.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]


=======================

You have claimed that this lament is impossible because only God controls that outcome and he cannot save the lost. He must first make them saved because in your own doctrine only the already saved saints - accept the gospel as if they were lost and needed it.



 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
anyone who reads romans 2 understands what it is about, except for you evidently...the portion I offered explains itself...to Christian readers.

This is what I just wrote to you about Romans 2 - where "as we saw" the mere quote of the text is "sufficient" to give rise to your strong objection to it.

Originally Posted by BobRyan


Recall that we are establishing the fact that God is telling the "truth" when He claims to "Convict the World of Sin and righteousness and judgment" and also to "draw ALL unto ME" John 12:32 -- and "STAND at the door and knock" Rev 3



In Romans 2 where you imagine no success cases at all for the gentiles - Paul shows that under the Gospel some Gentiles are lost - and some are saved just as is the case with the Jews.


=============================================
Romans 2

4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

this chapter is in the context of the "Kindness of God" and of "repentance"

6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;


Next we see the NEW Covenant promise of the LAW written on the heart in Heb 8 found in Romans 2 for the gentiles who have no Bible at all.



13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


In that last verse above we find "Gospel" Judgment - not "no Gospel at all" as some have imagined.


And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

In that quote above we find the example of saved Gentiles who condemn those Jews that are lost and the work of the Holy Spirit on the saved - both Jew and Gentile - which is how the gentiles ended up with the Romans 2:13-16 Law of God written on their hearts - in true New Covenant fashion.



"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31


==============================================

Were we simply 'not supposed to notice'?? Surely you knew we would 'notice' these details in Romans 2 and 3:31 and Hebrews 8.







Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
I am advocating the obvious point that Paul is telling the truth in Romans 2.

=============================================
Romans 2

...

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


In that last verse above we find "Gospel" Judgment - not "no Gospel at all" as some have imagined.


And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

In that quote above we find the example of saved Gentiles who condemn those Jews that are lost and the work of the Holy Spirit on the saved - both Jew and Gentile - which is how the gentiles ended up with the Romans 2:13-16 Law of God written on their hearts - in true New Covenant fashion.



"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31
your argument is "with the text".
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
[BobRyan


you offer nothing to respond to...I did not need to make any point.

And so that is your excuse for making none? You skim all the details in the text and then respond with nothing???

As noted above "your argument is with the text"

And you have no answer for the problems for Calvinism that we all see "in the text" as noted in the posts above. #43 #42 #34

so you settle for posts about "vinegar" and ??? fluff.

..your posts are incoherent....no vitriol....no need to lie.

Your problem is that you view a post that uses no vitriol and no lie -- such as my quote of the Bible -- to be "incoherent" when Calvinism does not fair well in those Bible texts... because your "argument is with the text" itself and the mere quote of the text is "sufficient to give rise to your strong objection to it".

That is a tough spot to be in.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
BobRyan
And so that is your excuse for making none? You skim all the details in the text and then respond with nothing???

You have shown you cannot deal honestly with a person. You ignore what I say, then give your own fable on what you think is being said.

You string it out and bury the discussion by repeating your failed ideas over and over.
Your response about Jn 12;32 has not been demonstrated at all to be any response.
Attempting to use romans 2 where Paul discusses Judgement of a persons works does not address jn 12.
You can quote the whole book of romans and it does not help you.
I posted that portion of romans 2 that shows and explains why Paul said what he did. You try and ridicule me because you have no response biblically except to offer more out of context verses.
I have to obey Mt7:6 when I see this kind of behavior on display.

One reason you have done this might be found here....is this what you believe?

#17 The Gift Of Prophecy

One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. Support is found in these Bible passages: Joel 2:28,29: Acts 2:14-21: Hebrews 1:1-3: Revelation 12:17: Revelation 19:10

As noted above "your argument is with the text"
I have no argument with any of the texts. I understand them, you do not.
And you have no answer for the problems for Calvinism that we all see "in the text"

because you cannot understand Calvinism, does not mean it has a problem.


so you settle for posts about "vinegar" and ??? fluff.
I was quoting from your prophet:thumbsup: You see Bob....if you want to conduct yourself in the way you are doing here, and are not serious to find truth....I can adapt and give you the kind of posts you offer to me, except I will use your prophet so we can see why we differ so much.:wavey:

Your problem is that you view a post that uses no vitriol and no lie -- such as my quote of the Bible
-

Your mis-quotes of the bible is not to use the bible at all.

- to be "incoherent" when Calvinism does not fair well in those Bible texts... because your "argument is with the text" itself and the mere quote of the text is "sufficient to give rise to your strong objection to it".



When responses are offered to show your misuse of the text and you turn and rend what is offered that is not the sign of good healthy interaction.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
BobRyan


You have shown you cannot deal honestly with a person. You ignore what I say, then give your own fable on what you think is being said.

As usual -- Not on wit of exegesis in your post or responding to "the text" -

Your solution is composed of pure "harrrumph!'

By contrast


This is what I just wrote to you about Romans 2 - where "as we saw" the mere quote of the text is "sufficient" to give rise to your strong objection to it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan


Recall that we are establishing the fact that God is telling the "truth" when He claims to "Convict the World of Sin and righteousness and judgment" and also to "draw ALL unto ME" John 12:32 -- and "STAND at the door and knock" Rev 3



In Romans 2 where you imagine no success cases at all for the gentiles - Paul shows that under the Gospel some Gentiles are lost - and some are saved just as is the case with the Jews.


=============================================
Romans 2

4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

this chapter is in the context of the "Kindness of God" and of "repentance"

6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;


Next we see the NEW Covenant promise of the LAW written on the heart in Heb 8 found in Romans 2 for the gentiles who have no Bible at all.



13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


In that last verse above we find "Gospel" Judgment - not "no Gospel at all" as some have imagined.


And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

In that quote above we find the example of saved Gentiles who condemn those Jews that are lost and the work of the Holy Spirit on the saved - both Jew and Gentile - which is how the gentiles ended up with the Romans 2:13-16 Law of God written on their hearts - in true New Covenant fashion.



"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31


==============================================

Were we simply 'not supposed to notice'?? Surely you knew we would 'notice' these details in Romans 2 and 3:31 and Hebrews 8.







Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
I am advocating the obvious point that Paul is telling the truth in Romans 2.

=============================================
Romans 2

...

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


In that last verse above we find "Gospel" Judgment - not "no Gospel at all" as some have imagined.


And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

In that quote above we find the example of saved Gentiles who condemn those Jews that are lost and the work of the Holy Spirit on the saved - both Jew and Gentile - which is how the gentiles ended up with the Romans 2:13-16 Law of God written on their hearts - in true New Covenant fashion.



"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31


your argument is "with the text".


See?

Hint: that is "the text" --


You string it out and bury the discussion by repeating your failed ideas over and over.

Romans 2 is not "my failed idea" -- try dealing "with the text" for a change.

My support for John 12:32 was compelling and conclusive - meanwhile you ignore every detail - and settle for more "harrumph instead" posts.

Your response about Jn 12;32 has not been demonstrated at all to be any response.

until you read the actual posts.

Attempting to use romans 2 where Paul discusses Judgement of a persons works does not address jn 12.

Until you remember that YOU are asking about the Romans 2:15-16 case where someone with no access to the Bible is being drawn to God and saved.

You can quote the whole book of romans and it does not help you.

I am always helped by the text- and you always complain when it is posted.

Were we "not supposed to notice"??

One reason you have done this might be found here....is this what you believe?

#17 The Gift Of Prophecy

One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. Support is found in these Bible passages: Joel 2:28,29: Acts 2:14-21: Hebrews 1:1-3: Revelation 12:17: Revelation 19:10


I have no argument with any of the texts. I understand them,

That has yet to demonstrated. you have demonstrated an unswerving devotion to "harrrumph" in your response - and little else.

in Christ,

Bob
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
I don't think Cals have been hammered, but challenged. But why would they accept every challenge? They are solid in their beliefs. And I have to acknowledge that Icon and a few others are very studious and quite the formidable foe in discussions. We all get a bit snippy and perhaps childish in responses, but that's debate on the net. I would not count it a victory because Cals are not vocal.

Thank you much Brother. I don't call myself a Calvinist because Calvin held some beliefs on infant Baptism, the Lords Supper, and the governance of the Church with which I disagree and I have never read anything Calvin wrote. However, I do believe in the Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace. It is unfortunate that sometimes we get so caught up in debate that we forget that we are disputing with fellow Christians. I said the following in another thread:

This whole Calvinism/Arminianism thing has gotten ridiculous. The fact is, quoting Scripture:

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
 

RLBosley

Active Member
Observation: if you look at all the currently active threads it appears that Calvinism is getting hammered.

Question: Where are all the Calvinists that were so active not so long ago on this board?

This is not a thread for debating Calvinism -- we have lots of them if you want to post in favor or against it. I am just curious about where everyone has gone on the Calvinist side.

in Christ,

Bob

I for one leave for a few weeks at a time for a couple reasons:
First, I get tired of debating the same points over and over.
Second, debating so much makes me angry. Not good for my growth in holiness.
Third, much of the debating is a waste of time as most are not going to change their opinion based on the debates here.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
I for one leave for a few weeks at a time for a couple reasons:
First, I get tired of debating the same points over and over.
Second, debating so much makes me angry. Not good for my growth in holiness.
Third, much of the debating is a waste of time as most are not going to change their opinion based on the debates here.

Bro. Bosley

I would not want anyone to change their belief from Arminianism or whatever to the Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace based on my argument alone. However, I would hope that what I say might move them to a serious study of Scripture which may lead them to what I believe is a correct understanding of the teaching of Scripture concerning Sovereign Election and Grace!
 

RLBosley

Active Member
Bro. Bosley

I would not want anyone to change their belief from Arminianism or whatever to the Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace based on my argument alone. However, I would hope that what I say might move them to a serious study of Scripture which may lead them to what I believe is a correct understanding of the teaching of Scripture concerning Sovereign Election and Grace!

That is a good point, and I believe that is the right attitude.
I probably should have said that the debates are usually a waste of time as most people are too dedicated to their presuppositions to actually consider the other side's arguments.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
I for one leave for a few weeks at a time for a couple reasons:
First, I get tired of debating the same points over and over.
Second, debating so much makes me angry. Not good for my growth in holiness.
Third, much of the debating is a waste of time as most are not going to change their opinion based on the debates here.

It may be the case that Arminians leave this board from time to time for the same reasons. But it seemed to me that there were more Calvinists here in previous times.

For example there was a period of a few week where I think SavedByMercy was the most active and almost the only Calvinist posting on the current threads.


in Christ,

Bob
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
It may be the case that Arminians leave this board from time to time for the same reasons. But it seemed to me that there were more Calvinists here in previous times.

For example there was a period of a few week where I think SavedByMercy was the most active and almost the only Calvinist posting on the current threads.


in Christ,

Bob

Ryan

Basically all you do is take Scripture out of context and repeat them over and over. That is one reason people do not respond!
 
It may be the case that Arminians leave this board from time to time for the same reasons. But it seemed to me that there were more Calvinists here in previous times.

For example there was a period of a few week where I think SavedByMercy was the most active and almost the only Calvinist posting on the current threads.


in Christ,

Bob

People get tired of washing their eyes after reading one of your posts....
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I for one leave for a few weeks at a time for a couple reasons:
First, I get tired of debating the same points over and over.
Second, debating so much makes me angry. Not good for my growth in holiness.
Third, much of the debating is a waste of time as most are not going to change their opinion based on the debates here.

Brother,

I would not want anyone to change their belief from Calvinism or whatever to the Biblical Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace based on my argument alone. However, I would hope that what I say might move them to a serious study of Scripture which may lead them to what I believe is a correct understanding of the teaching of Scripture concerning Biblical Sovereign Election and Grace.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
People get tired of washing their eyes after reading one of your posts....

One of the most compelling substantive scripture responses we have seen from Calvinism on that subject of God's Lament.

It seems that in a failing position such as yours - there is no end to the idea of substituting vitriol, acrimony filled and "harrumph" toned (style over substance) posting instead of a Bible answer to the issues raised.

Your consistency with others that have chosen that same road -- noted.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBosley
I probably should have said that the debates are usually a waste of time as most people are too dedicated to their presuppositions to actually consider the other side's arguments.



Amen!! :thumbsup:

if the intent is to "explain why nobody posts" on the "Christian Debate Forums" -- then that is certainly one reason.

But once you do enter this part of the Board -- then that reason diminishes.

Notice that in the case of SavedByMercy's position it leads to a lot of answers/files/ being built up regarding the various points she raises.

in Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Ryan

Basically all you do is take Scripture out of context !

A factless accusation never actually proven to be true. But I understand that it is a "story" that some Calvinists like to tell themselves so not denying anyone the free will to go "down" that road.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Brother,

I would not want anyone to change their belief from Calvinism or whatever to the Biblical Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace based on my argument alone. However, I would hope that what I say might move them to a serious study of Scripture which may lead them to what I believe is a correct understanding of the teaching of Scripture concerning Biblical Sovereign Election and Grace.

Should I accuse you of plagiarizing my post #50? I thought it was good but??????

Bro. Bosley

I would not want anyone to change their belief from Arminianism or whatever to the Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace based on my argument alone. However, I would hope that what I say might move them to a serious study of Scripture which may lead them to what I believe is a correct understanding of the teaching of Scripture concerning Sovereign Election and Grace!
 
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