Can A Baptist Believe In TULIP And Not Be Reformed?

[Iconoclast]

That sounds strange to me, Iconoclast, unless perhaps you meant upper case S, G and B, and were refering to a grouping of Baptist churches calling themselves "Sovereign Grace Baptist". Cerainly Baptists believing in the doctrines of God's sovereign grace were around long before the 1980s.

They (baptists holding to the Doctrines of Grace) have had various names here in the UK, including "Particular Baptist", "Grace Baptist", and "Reformed Baptist".

The first and second London Baptist Confessions of Faith (1646 and 1689 respectively) were both based firmly on the Doctrines of Grace.

I suppose what I'm really asking you is this: What is "the teaching of what are called sovereign grace baptists (which) did not take root until the 1980s with john zens"?

Hello David,
There were a group of baptists that believe that the law is all done away,except those laws that are repeated in the NT.
So they teach that we are only under 9 of the ten commandments,,they cannot see the Lords day commandment.
They say we are under the law of love.
Zens wrote in a small magazine called reformation today.
there are some who refer to themselves as NT baptists.
Do a google search on Jon Zens.

 

[psalms109:31]

Love

Romans 13:10
Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Anyone can misuse the word of God doesn't make the word of God not true.

When we love we will not sin against our brother, we will do no wrong, without loving God through Jesus Christ we will not know even how to love. With love we don't have to add a bunch of regulation and it no longer is a work.

It is a shame that some lift love over Christ, we do strive for peace, but Christ brought a sword.

Matthew 10:34
" Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

 

[Iconoclast]

willis;

The Ten Commandments(OT LAW) were fulfilled when Jesus hung, bled, and died, and arose that third and appointed morning!! They are no longer in effect today. We live under Grace now, and not the law.

So you see, Brother Iconoclast, we are freed from the law which kept us under bondage. Why would God place the law in our hearts, when time and time again, the OT people couldn't keep it?? God isn't going to free us from the curse of the law, and then turn around and place them in our hearts. We are free from the law through the blood of Christ.

Willis-The Ten Commandments(OT LAW)--they are seperate.

They are no longer in effect today;
.---so we can worship other God's,or commit murder now? If these laws are no longer in effect. Do you see how this makes no sense Willis.

We live under Grace now, and not the law

Law and grace go together for a believer. How do you love your neighbor? you do not steal from him,you do not covet his goods, his wife,you do not bear false witness against him, you do not murder him.

8Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Why would God place the law in our hearts

God isn't going to free us from the curse of the law, and then turn around and place them in our hearts

He already has declared that He does indeed put the law in our heart
Hebrews 8
Willis look at this,
http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc19.html

 

[Iconoclast]

Ron
you said,

The law of faith and the law of Christ.

How do we know what that is? What do we use to determine this standard?

For unbelievers not believers. The whole of the book of Galatians is about not being under the law. Why would we put ourselves under a yoke that not even the best of the Jews could bear? When men, Reformed folks especially, put believers under the law what they do is destroy the law. I have an extremely high view of the law. To make the law to be something we can keep as believers is to bring down the law to us and makes the law to be less than what it is. The law can only kill. It can never give hope or life. We can never make ourselves better by the law any more than we can live by the law. I serve God by love not by law. Love is a much better motivator than law.

Ron ,I agree galatians is about not being under law as a means to become saved! We are under law to Christ. The 10 commands are God's guidelines of how we are to live along with all the teaching in His word.
The ceremonial aspects ,and judicial outworkings of the ten commandments that were part of the OT theocracy have been completed in Christ ,yes.
the ten commands are still valid today.I posted this on another thread,but it is a good read.
http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc19.html

 

[Ron Wood]

Ron
you said,
How do we know what that is? What do we use to determine this standard?

Ron ,I agree galatians is about not being under law as a means to become saved! We are under law to Christ. The 10 commands are God's guidelines of how we are to live along with all the teaching in His word.
The ceremonial aspects ,and judicial outworkings of the ten commandments that were part of the OT theocracy have been completed in Christ ,yes.
the ten commands are still valid today.I posted this on another thread,but it is a good read.
http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc19.html

I will look at the link when I can. I again ask that you show me where in the Scriptures the law is separated into ceremonial , moral, dietary and civil? Those are separations made by theologians, in a legitimate way to help us understand to be sure, but never in the Scriptures. As a believer do you need a rule to tell you what is right? A rule, or law if you will, necessarily carries with it a penalty for disobedience. What is the penalty for believers for not keeping the law?

 

[Iconoclast]

I will look at the link when I can. I again ask that you show me where in the Scriptures the law is separated into ceremonial , moral, dietary and civil? Those are separations made by theologians, in a legitimate way to help us understand to be sure, but never in the Scriptures. As a believer do you need a rule to tell you what is right? A rule, or law if you will, necessarily carries with it a penalty for disobedience. What is the penalty for believers for not keeping the law?

Ron,

One example is in Acts 15-circumcision

If all law was done away,why was this discussed?

What is the penalty for believers for not keeping the law?

[/QUOTE]

They come under the discipline of God;
[QUOTE 6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

12Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;

13And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

14Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

][/QUOTE]

27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Ron think of psalm 119.What was the psalmists view of the law word of God?
all through the Psalms believers delight in the commands and law of God.

The fact that we are no longer under the OT theocracy shows that those aspects,ceremonial and judicial were fulfilled and completed,ie
we do not stone adulterers to death now, we ex-communicate them.

The ten commandments are before the mosaic law, and after the mosaic law.

Ron, look at leviticus 19,20, 21. You can find many of the same laws repeated in the NT.The law word of God is our standard.

 

[convicted1]

They are no longer in effect today;
.---so we can worship other God's,or commit murder now? If these laws are no longer in effect. Do you see how this makes no sense Willis.

If they are in effect today, you better not work on the Sabbath, or you will stoned to death. If you break the law(any part of it), then physical death is what occurs.

Law and grace go together for a believer. How do you love your neighbor? you do not steal from him,you do not covet his goods, his wife,you do not bear false witness against him, you do not murder him.

This is what I would call the "moral" portion of the law. Those that have been born again, know not to do this because we have THE KEEPER on the inside now, the OT saints didn't have this luxury.

He already has declared that He does indeed put the law in our heart
Hebrews 8.

I don't disagree with this verse, but with the way you are applying it. Let's go back and I will try to break it down, or at least I hope I can.

Jer. 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Here is the fulfillment of Jeremiah chapter 31:

Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


Heb. 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Now, here are the "laws" that these scriptures are making reference to:

Matt. 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

So, Brother Iconoclast, the two "laws" that Jesus told the Disciples hung all the law and prophets are what "laws" are placed in our hearts....these two "laws" boil down to "love". God puts the "law of love" in the hearts of His children!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[convicted1]

Gal. 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

The OT law(including the Ten Commandments) kept them in bondage. Read them closely. They are nothing but one BIG "THOU SHALT NOT"!! God knew that the OT Saints couldn't keep the law then, and we sure can't now.

Look at how Jesus worded the two "Laws" He said He would place in our hearts:

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

We live under the Grace Covenant now, and nothing but Grace. It is not Grace *plus* the Law, but rather, Grace *minus* the Law. Jesus fulfilled the Law when He died, was buried, and was resurrected that third and appointed morning. Praise His sweet name!!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[David Lamb]

David Lamb, here are three pages that try to explain the splintered Reformed/Calvinist Baptist groups that have sprung up in the past few decades in America:

What Strain of Reformed Baptist Do You Belong To?

Calvinism and Mental Health

The Reformed Baptists: A Fundamentalism File Research Report

Thanks, Jerome. I have visited those links, and it certainly seems that in the USA, "Sovereign Grace Baptist" is a particular (no pun intended!!) grouping of reformed baptist churches. Here, the term is used much more generally, as in this paragraph from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Grace_Baptists :

Sovereign Grace Baptists in the broadest sense are any "Calvinistic" Baptists that accept God's sovereign grace in salvation and predestination, including Primitive Baptists, Reformed Baptists, Continental Baptist Churches (org. 1983) and Strict Baptists.
​

[The "(org. 1983)" only refers to the so-called Continental Baptist Churches.]

For example , there was a church in Glasgow (Scotland) called "Zion Sovereign Grace Baptist Church", and as far as I know, they were nothing to do with the "Ashland Schism" mentioned in your first link. Indeed, the Glasgow church was founded in 1967, some years before the "Ashland Schism" in America.

I understand now from Iconoclast's reply (Post 41) -thanks for that, Iconoclast - that he was using the expression in the "American" way, and was referring to a group with antinomian tendencies - something which was certainly not true of the church in Glasgow.

 

[Iconoclast]

Willis,
Did you read this over?? Read all of it,and if you look in number 6+7. I think it answers all your worries. I agree with some of what you posted about,but I think it would help to look at this offered in the confession. Read it slow and go over the verses offered,I think you will like it.

Chapter 19: Of the Law of God
1._____ God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience written in his heart, and a particular precept of not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; by which he bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
( Genesis 1:27; Ecclesiastes 7:29; Romans 10:5; Galatians 3:10, 12 )
2._____ The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables, the four first containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
( Romans 2:14, 15; Deuteronomy 10:4 )

3._____ Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth divers instructions of moral duties, all which ceremonial laws being appointed only to the time of reformation, are, by Jesus Christ the true Messiah and only law-giver, who was furnished with power from the Father for that end abrogated and taken away.
( Hebrews 10:1; Colossians 2:17; 1 Corinthians 5:7; Colossians 2:14, 16, 17; Ephesians 2:14, 16 )

4._____ To them also he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any now by virtue of that institution; their general equity only being of moral use.
( 1 Corinthians 9:8-10 )

5._____ The moral law doth for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; neither doth Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.
( Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8, 10-12; James 2:10, 11; Matthew 5:17-19; Romans 3:31 )

6._____ Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, in that as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts, and lives, so as examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against, sin; together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ and the perfection of his obedience; it is likewise of use to the regenerate to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to shew what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse and unallayed rigour thereof. The promises of it likewise shew them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, though not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works; so as man's doing good and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law and not under grace.
( Romans 6:14; Galatians 2:16; Romans 8:1; Romans 10:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7, etc; Romans 6:12-14; 1 Peter 3:8-13 ) 7._____ Neither are the aforementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it, the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God, revealed in the law, requireth to be done. ( Galatians 3:21; Ezekiel 36:27 )


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chapter 20 "Of the Gospel and the Extent of Grace thereof"
Return to Table of Contents.

 

[convicted1]

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith[//B] which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


Rom. 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

The "law" was our sins on a billboard....for all to see. Without the law, there would be no sin(Rom. 7:8). Christ fulfilled the law by His death, burial, and resurrection!! We live under Grace *plus* NOTHING!! The law was finished when Jesus stated on the cross, "It(Law) is finished"!! I believe Him.

When we are confronted by the "law" as sinners, it shows us how evil we really were at that time. It was our schoolmaster in our sinful days, and it brought us unto Christ, when it showed us in our "dead state" of sin, and that we needed to be saved by Him. This is the purpose of the "law" now. It works in sinners to show them their sinful lives, and that without Him, they will die lost. Once we are saved, the "law" isn't placed in our hearts, but the two that Jesus told the Disciples(boils down to the "law of love") are!! I hope this clears up how I see the law. It has a purpose, but only in sinners, and not CHRISTians after salvation has taken place!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[David Lamb]

Hello David,
There were a group of baptists that believe that the law is all done away,except those laws that are repeated in the NT.
So they teach that we are only under 9 of the ten commandments,,they cannot see the Lords day commandment.
They say we are under the law of love.
Zens wrote in a small magazine called reformation today.
there are some who refer to themselves as NT baptists.
Do a google search on Jon Zens.

Thanks for that, Iconoclast. That's much clearer!

However, to save possible confusion, there is another magazine with the title: "Reformation Today", and it has nothing to do with Jon Zens. Its web site describes the magazine like this:

Reformation Today is a bi-monthly journal by Baptists for Baptists, applying the teachings of the Bible to the life of our churches to bring reformation and spiritual refreshment. The magazine is founded on the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689, and links together those who are concerned to see reformation in our churches, and an appreciation of our reformed and puritan heritage. The editor Erroll Hulse is widely travelled, recently ministering in Australia, Indonesia, Cameroon, Namibia, Brazil, Argentina, USA and Canada. He is able to give a truly worldwide perspective on the reformed Baptist scene.
​

In fact, I have found references to Jon Zens being editor of a quarterly magazine called "Searching Together", but so far I cannot find any reference to him starting a magazine called "Reformation Today". (Not saying you are wrong, Iconoclast, merely that I can't find reference to it.)

 

[ReformedBaptist]

So in sum, it depends on how one defines "Reformed"

I am surprised no one mentioned the five solas of the Reformation...Calvinism is not the litmus test for being Reformed as far as I know. For me personally, the only parts of the 1689 Confession I fall short of giving assent to is with regard to the Lord's Table and Baptism, as a means of grace (just not sure I understand what they mean) and a Sunday Sabbath.

Let others call me what they will then.

 

[Jerome]

David Lamb, please take the accusations/namecalling regarding John Zens with a grain of salt. Apparently Iconocast's faction of Reformed Baptists got their dander up against Zens, publisher of Baptist Reformation Review, several decades ago. Read his account of their behavior here.

 

[David Lamb]

David Lamb, please take the accusations/namecalling regarding John Zens with a grain of salt. Apparently Iconocast's faction of Reformed Baptists got their dander up against Zens, publisher of Baptist Reformation Review, several decades ago. Read his account of their behavior here.

Thanks, Jerome, but I think you have misunderstood me (probably I didn't make myself clear). I certainly wasn't accusing Iconoclast of accusations/namecalling or anything else. I was just asking for clarification of what he had written.

For instance, my post 36 ended:

I suppose what I'm really asking you is this: What is "the teaching of what are called sovereign grace baptists (which) did not take root until the 1980s with john zens"?
​

He replied in post 41.

I thanked him in post 52, and added a note saying that I know of another magazine with the same name as the one he had mentioned as started by Jon Zens, Reformation Today, which is/was nothing to do with Zens.

I hope that is clearer.