Can a believer sin?

While we don't agree on whether or not Christians can commit sins or not, I do agree with you here. I have always interpreted that to mean Paul was speaking about prior sins when he said that. I think the point is that nobody can be such a bad person that you can't be saved. Sins, even the most awful don't disqualify you from the opportunity to be born again.

 

Lets say the soul and spirit sure are close.

Hbr 4:12For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I believe it to be the "inward man" which consists of the soul and spirit, which I believe to be the part of a man that is raised from a dead state of sin, unto a lively hope in Jesus Christ. Cleansed up and ready to go to be with Jesus, when the natural death come. I believe to be the part that John was speaking of when he said "that which is born of God, cannot sin". The inward man has the "mind of Christ" and is where the "indwelling of the Holy Ghost is".

This I believe to be the outward man that Paul was speaking of when he said:
Rom 7:24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I believe this is where the carnal mind is which cannot serve God, for God seeketh such to worship him in spirit and in truth.

Now, I believe the inward man is stronger than the outward man and keeps him. That is where the warfare comes when the outward man wants to serve the flesh, and the inward man wants to serve the spirit. He that walketh after the flesh shall die, but he "through" the spirit, shall mortify (bring under subjection) the deeds of the body, shall live.

Sometimes the outward man gets his way and sin abounds, and that is when the chastisement comes in, that he be not condemned with the world, and comes back under subjection to the spirit.

I hope I have explained it so you can see what I believe?

Rom 8:21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

The word "also" is very important for it tells us a part of us has been delivered and a part will be delivered in the resurrection. I think this one scripture tells the whole story, but of course you have to have the other scripture to know what the story is.

 

1. With all due respect, Bob, you are using Strong's irresponsibly.

2. I know of no one who will take that reading that you gave of 1 Tim 1:15.

3. Even the KJV doesn't even take that reading.

4. Who really is trying to build a doctrine here.

5. If you take the reading as it is, it destroys your entire argument, so you would not have it. That's what is taking place here.

 

TC,

I agree with you in respect that the wording is "I am". But I still always took that to mean he (Paul) considered himself the chief sinner because of the sins he committed Prior to Salvation. Most specifically the ones he mentioned just before in verse thirteen. I always understood it to mean that there is no such thing as being such a bad sinner as to disqualify you from being eligible for salvation. Like saying I am the worst persons on this earth, yet Gods grace is still sufficient.

 

TC is quite correct here that there is no way to render this in any way but the present tense and apply it accordingly. It's a present, indicative.

 

1. Paul is fond of using superlatives in reference to himself (Eph. 3:8, "least of all saints").

2. A simple reading of 1 Tim 1:12-15 shows a former life and a present life. Admittedly, Paul still struggled with sin (Rom 7:17-25).

 

There's no getting around that. :thumbs:

 

That still doesn't really answer my question. I agree he is speaking in the present tense. But it still sounds to me like he is referring to what he had done previously. I can easily see someone saying. "I am the worst kind of person there is, yet I am saved", thinking about what they had done in the past. I feel that way myself sometimes, and maybe that is what it takes to understand that. Based on things I have done many years ago, I can understand the thinking that, I am a horrible sinner, worst than many. I don't think a person would stop thinking of himself that way, because he is saved, just appreciate that much more the grace of the Lord.

 

It does not destroy my argument if Paul was speaking in present tense of his life span.

It just seems strange to me that Paul spoke and told the sins he had committed, but did not speak of sins he was committing now. If you know of some terrible sins Apostle Paul was committing in present tense, please tell us.
If he was speaking of his life span in present tense then it would make sense in your terms.

It seems to me if you and HoG or anyone says that Paul is chief of sinners while he was speaking in this verse, you should be able to tell us what were those "terrible sins"? Paul condemned adultery, fornication, unrighteous of all kinds and if he was more guilty than those he was condemning, then Paul would be a hypocrit, condemning others while he was guilty.

 

I see that Paul's fondness of superlatives has eluded you.

 

I see no one is quoting any present tense terrible sins worse than anyone else around tha Apostle Paul was guilty of.

Also, Strong's was not put together by people like me, they were scholars no doubt, and Strong's says "am" can be "was" or "have been". Which makes a whole lot more sense when reading the scripture for Paul listed his past sins, of which he was acknowledging then.

1 Tim 1:
12: And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13: Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14: And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
15: This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

He is talking about when Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners, which was certainly in the past of when Paul was talking.

I will close out on this part, I think I will accept Strong's.

 

1. Paul is fond of using superlatives (Eph 3:8, "To me, the least of all saints).

2. Paul elsewhere says that sin was present in him (Rom. 7:17-25).

3. Paul does not have to itemize his sins for us to know that he struggled with sin.

4. Hasn't experience taught every believer that sin is for real and we will continue to struggle with it until the good Lord returns to eventually set us free?

5. It has taught me that, and I see the same in Paul's life (Rom 7).

 

Not chief of sinners. I don't believe that you think you are the chief of sinners now. Do you compare to the murderers and rapists of little children, I think not.

What time you are shaking your head, are you also "chief" among sinners now. Are you also worse than rapists of 3 year olds? I don't think so.

I think we are getting ready to find out James.

 

Apparently it has not taught all this, based on what I see posted here, from time to time.

Ed