Can a believer sin?

[Steven2006]

Well, I still say when he said "I am chief of sinners" he could of been talking about just 2 or 3 lines above where he tells what sins he commits.

If he is saying that he now commits sin more than they all. Please give us some examples of what sins he was committing, that were so bad?

While we don't agree on whether or not Christians can commit sins or not, I do agree with you here. I have always interpreted that to mean Paul was speaking about prior sins when he said that. I think the point is that nobody can be such a bad person that you can't be saved. Sins, even the most awful don't disqualify you from the opportunity to be born again.

 

[Brother Bob]

I'm very interested in your comments.
That wich is born of God is the Spirit. Do you take this to be the part of man in which God gives breath to upon the bestowing of grace? The spirit?

That which sins is flesh. Are you saying this is the soulical man?
I would think that we all here should agree that the soul and spirit are not the same thing.

Lets say the soul and spirit sure are close.

Hbr 4:12For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I'm very interested in your comments.
That wich is born of God is the Spirit. Do you take this to be the part of man in which God gives breath to upon the bestowing of grace? The spirit?

I believe it to be the "inward man" which consists of the soul and spirit, which I believe to be the part of a man that is raised from a dead state of sin, unto a lively hope in Jesus Christ. Cleansed up and ready to go to be with Jesus, when the natural death come. I believe to be the part that John was speaking of when he said "that which is born of God, cannot sin". The inward man has the "mind of Christ" and is where the "indwelling of the Holy Ghost is".

That which sins is flesh. Are you saying this is the soulical man?
I would think that we all here should agree that the soul and spirit are not the same thing.

This I believe to be the outward man that Paul was speaking of when he said:
Rom 7:24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I believe this is where the carnal mind is which cannot serve God, for God seeketh such to worship him in spirit and in truth.

Now, I believe the inward man is stronger than the outward man and keeps him. That is where the warfare comes when the outward man wants to serve the flesh, and the inward man wants to serve the spirit. He that walketh after the flesh shall die, but he "through" the spirit, shall mortify (bring under subjection) the deeds of the body, shall live.

Sometimes the outward man gets his way and sin abounds, and that is when the chastisement comes in, that he be not condemned with the world, and comes back under subjection to the spirit.

I hope I have explained it so you can see what I believe?

Rom 8:21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

The word "also" is very important for it tells us a part of us has been delivered and a part will be delivered in the resurrection. I think this one scripture tells the whole story, but of course you have to have the other scripture to know what the story is.

 

[TCGreek]

Well, I still say when he said "I am chief of sinners" he could of been talking about just 2 or 3 lines above where he tells what sins he commits.

If he is saying that he now commits sin more than they all. Please give us some examples of what sins he was committing, that were so bad?
He gave us what he committed before, and found mercy. You also speak of God's Grace, which to me is what helps us from sinning.

Also, once again it seems that Strong's agrees it could of meant past.

Strong's

1510
eimi
eimi
i-mee'
the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):--am, have been, X it is I, was.

So it could read "I have been chief of sinners". or "I was chief of sinners".

I could not quote how many times members have went to that 5 words to make up a whole doctrine on a subject, when it could mean "Past sins". No one seems to know all those bad sins he is committing now, or present.
What if Strong's Translation of "am" is correct. I can see where some want it to be present, to justify their own sins, present.

BBob

1. With all due respect, Bob, you are using Strong's irresponsibly.

2. I know of no one who will take that reading that you gave of 1 Tim 1:15.

3. Even the KJV doesn't even take that reading.

4. Who really is trying to build a doctrine here.

5. If you take the reading as it is, it destroys your entire argument, so you would not have it. That's what is taking place here.

 

[Steven2006]

1. With all due respect, Bob, you are using Strong's irresponsibly.

2. I know of no one who will take that reading that you gave of 1 Tim 1:15.

3. Even the KJV doesn't even take that reading.

4. Who really is trying to build a doctrine here.

5. If you take the reading as it is, it destroys your entire argument, so you would not have it. That's what is taking place here.

TC,

I agree with you in respect that the wording is "I am". But I still always took that to mean he (Paul) considered himself the chief sinner because of the sins he committed Prior to Salvation. Most specifically the ones he mentioned just before in verse thirteen. I always understood it to mean that there is no such thing as being such a bad sinner as to disqualify you from being eligible for salvation. Like saying I am the worst persons on this earth, yet Gods grace is still sufficient.

 

[Hope of Glory]

TC is quite correct here that there is no way to render this in any way but the present tense and apply it accordingly. It's a present, indicative.

 

[TCGreek]

TC,

I agree with you in respect that the wording is "I am". But I still always took that to mean he (Paul) considered himself the chief sinner because of the sins he committed Prior to Salvation. Most specifically the ones he mentioned just before in verse thirteen. I always understood it to mean that there is no such thing as being such a bad sinner as to disqualify you from being eligible for salvation. Like saying I am the worst persons on this earth, yet Gods grace is still sufficient.

1. Paul is fond of using superlatives in reference to himself (Eph. 3:8, "least of all saints").

2. A simple reading of 1 Tim 1:12-15 shows a former life and a present life. Admittedly, Paul still struggled with sin (Rom 7:17-25).

 

[TCGreek]

TC is quite correct here that there is no way to render this in any way but the present tense and apply it accordingly. It's a present, indicative.

There's no getting around that. :thumbs:

 

[Steven2006]

1. Paul is fond of using superlatives in reference to himself (Eph. 3:8, "least of all saints").

2. A simple reading of 1 Tim 1:12-15 shows a former life and a present life. Admittedly, Paul still struggled with sin (Rom 7:17-25).

That still doesn't really answer my question. I agree he is speaking in the present tense. But it still sounds to me like he is referring to what he had done previously. I can easily see someone saying. "I am the worst kind of person there is, yet I am saved", thinking about what they had done in the past. I feel that way myself sometimes, and maybe that is what it takes to understand that. Based on things I have done many years ago, I can understand the thinking that, I am a horrible sinner, worst than many. I don't think a person would stop thinking of himself that way, because he is saved, just appreciate that much more the grace of the Lord.

 

[James_Newman]

Hey, you guys talked without me, thats not fair.

I think it boils down to this:

1. A person that has absolutely no fruit of the Spirit evident in their heart or life should not be boastfully confident in their profession of faith. Among the fruits of the Spirit are faith and love. The conversion experience itself is an evidence of regeneration.

I don't think anyone should be confident in their profession of faith. They ought to be confident in the one whom they have believed. As for conversion, I don't think this is something that happens at the moment of salvation for many, even most, believers.

2. The greatest evidence of my salvation is not what can be seen outwardly but what I know I believe inwardly.

I think you mean what I mean also, that we should just trust that what Christ said is true. He said if we believed on Him we would be raised up on the last day. I don't think there are any strings attatched to that promise, its a free gift.

3. It is not our good works, per se, that proves we're saved, nor is it our bad works that prove we're not saved, but it is the ability to continue in sin without a conscience toward God that is evidence that a person might not be saved. In other words, someone that does not have that struggle going on between the Spirit and the flesh should examine their faith.

The problem I have is that the bible tells us every man has a conscience. Even unbelievers feel guilty when they sin, unless their conscience has been so seared that they are beyond feeling. It is this light of the conscience that leads us to the knowledge that the scripture is true when it says we have all sinned against God. But beyond that, there is also the problem that we can't see a mans conscience. He may outwardly show no signs of a raging inward struggle. We often use drugs or alcohol to silence our inner voice, and many folks are able to go for years seemingly happy in their sin. David sinned in the matter of Bathsheba, and it didn't seem to bother him, that is until Nathan brought his sin to remembrance and David realized that he was naked before God.

 

[Brother Bob]

TC;
5. If you take the reading as it is, it destroys your entire argument, so you would not have it. That's what is taking place here.

It does not destroy my argument if Paul was speaking in present tense of his life span.

It just seems strange to me that Paul spoke and told the sins he had committed, but did not speak of sins he was committing now. If you know of some terrible sins Apostle Paul was committing in present tense, please tell us.
If he was speaking of his life span in present tense then it would make sense in your terms.

It seems to me if you and HoG or anyone says that Paul is chief of sinners while he was speaking in this verse, you should be able to tell us what were those "terrible sins"? Paul condemned adultery, fornication, unrighteous of all kinds and if he was more guilty than those he was condemning, then Paul would be a hypocrit, condemning others while he was guilty.

 

[TCGreek]

That still doesn't really answer my question. I agree he is speaking in the present tense. But it still sounds to me like he is referring to what he had done previously. I can easily see someone saying. "I am the worst kind of person there is, yet I am saved", thinking about what they had done in the past. I feel that way myself sometimes, and maybe that is what it takes to understand that. Based on things I have done many years ago, I can understand the thinking that, I am a horrible sinner, worst than many. I don't think a person would stop thinking of himself that way, because he is saved, just appreciate that much more the grace of the Lord.

I see that Paul's fondness of superlatives has eluded you.

 

[Brother Bob]

I see no one is quoting any present tense terrible sins worse than anyone else around tha Apostle Paul was guilty of.

Also, Strong's was not put together by people like me, they were scholars no doubt, and Strong's says "am" can be "was" or "have been". Which makes a whole lot more sense when reading the scripture for Paul listed his past sins, of which he was acknowledging then.

1 Tim 1:
12: And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13: Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14: And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
15: This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

He is talking about when Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners, which was certainly in the past of when Paul was talking.

I will close out on this part, I think I will accept Strong's.

 

[TCGreek]

It does not destroy my argument if Paul was speaking in present tense of his life span.

It just seems strange to me that Paul spoke and told the sins he had committed, but did not speak of sins he was committing now. If you know of some terrible sins Apostle Paul was committing in present tense, please tell us.
If he was speaking of his life span in present tense then it would make sense in your terms.

It seems to me if you and HoG or anyone says that Paul is chief of sinners while he was speaking in this verse, you should be able to tell us what were those "terrible sins"? Paul condemned adultery, fornication, unrighteous of all kinds and if he was more guilty than those he was condemning, then Paul would be a hypocrit, condemning others while he was guilty.

1. Paul is fond of using superlatives (Eph 3:8, "To me, the least of all saints).

2. Paul elsewhere says that sin was present in him (Rom. 7:17-25).

3. Paul does not have to itemize his sins for us to know that he struggled with sin.

4. Hasn't experience taught every believer that sin is for real and we will continue to struggle with it until the good Lord returns to eventually set us free?

5. It has taught me that, and I see the same in Paul's life (Rom 7).

 

[James_Newman]

I see no one is quoting any present tense terrible sins worse than anyone else around tha Apostle Paul was guilty of.

Also, Strong's was not put together by people like me, they were scholars no doubt, and Strong's says "am" can be "was" or "have been". Which makes a whole lot more sense when reading the scripture for Paul listed his past sins, of which he was acknowledging then.

1 Tim 1:
12: And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13: Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14: And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
15: This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

He is talking about when Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners, which was certainly in the past of when Paul was talking.

I will close out on this part, I think I will accept Strong's.

I would tend to agree with you Bob, that Paul was speaking of his past.

 

[EdSutton]

 

[James_Newman]

1. Paul is fond of using superlatives (Eph 3:8, "To me, the least of all saints).

2. Paul elsewhere says that sin was present in him (Rom. 7:17-25).

3. Paul does not have to itemize his sins for us to know that he struggled with sin.

4. Hasn't experience taught every believer that sin is for real and we will continue to struggle with it until the good Lord returns to eventually set us free?

5. It has taught me that, and I see the same in Paul's life (Rom 7).

So back to the topic, how much sin do you suppose is permissible in the life of someone like Paul, who claims to be a Christian?

 

[Brother Bob]

TC;
1. Paul is fond of using superlatives (Eph 3:8, "To me, the least of all saints).

2. Paul elsewhere says that sin was present in him (Rom. 7:17-25).

3. Paul does not have to itemize his sins for us to know that he struggled with sin.

4. Hasn't experience taught every believer that sin is for real and we will continue to struggle with it until the good Lord returns to eventually set us free?

5. It has taught me that, and I see the same in Paul's life (Rom 7).

Not chief of sinners. I don't believe that you think you are the chief of sinners now. Do you compare to the murderers and rapists of little children, I think not.

Apparently it has not taught all this, based on what I see posted here, from time to time. {shakes head, sadly}

Ed

What time you are shaking your head, are you also "chief" among sinners now. Are you also worse than rapists of 3 year olds? I don't think so.

James; So back to the topic, how much sin do you suppose is permissible in the life of someone like Paul, who claims to be a Christian?

I think we are getting ready to find out James.

 

[James_Newman]

Apparently it has not taught all this, based on what I see posted here, from time to time. {shakes head, sadly}

Ed

Unfortunately it seems that many folks have to learn this lesson the hard way.

 

[EdSutton]

4. Hasn't experience taught every believer that sin is for real and we will continue to struggle with it until the good Lord returns to eventually set us free?

Apparently it has not taught all this, based on what I see posted here, from time to time.

Ed

 

[James_Newman]

Apparently it has not taught all this, based on what I see posted here, from time to time.

Ed

Got it right that time, did you?