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Can a Born Again Christian lose thei salvation?
- Thread starter Robert William
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1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
HankD
Because it's taught in the New Testament proves it was believed since Pentecost. :laugh:
Not to mention it was taught in the Old Testament as well:
Ezekiel 36:21-27
King James Version (KJV)
21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
There is no clearer picture of the New Birth in all of the Old Testament, and just as those who enter into the Kingdom prepared for them by God are amazed to be credited with righteousness for works they were not aware of doing, even here we see how one can fulfill God's will, and why.
God bless.
You are preaching the opposite of what the verses say, please read them again. It doesn't say you are not My sheep because they don't believe, it says they don't believe because they are NOT His sheep.:BangHead:
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Yea I did not finish it because the rest is understood given the subject. Even then what you have posted here does not change what I said.
I'm surprised that a free willy would use verses with God saying "I will cause"
In the Old only a few predestined elect were saved by Grace through faith, if there was no Grace there would never be faith in the gospel. The majority were under law (self righteous) and the blood of animals never forgave but only covered.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
I would also add that this is most likely due to refusal to acknowledge any legitimate defense so as to demonize a view different than your own.
No, not at all, lol.
And I will show you that before the post is over.
We will read them together, that will be clear to the public.
Perhaps not to you, but to those that are honest about the issue.
It says nothing of the kind:
John 10:24-27
King James Version (KJV)
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
What you are missing is that...they have been told.
And like them, you illustrate this very thing...
...you keep asking for the answer you want, and ignoring what you are told.
When do the sheep...believe Christ?
Answer that and you will see that the Gospel is necessary to salvation, and only the Holy Spirit enlightens men.
Now your turn. Address the Scripture:
John 12:32
King James Version (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
1 Corinthians 3:5
King James Version (KJV)
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
Does all men and every man refer only to sheep?
It is interesting that not one of you have bothered to address the first Scripture presented in opposition to your views.
Anyone else here like to try?
God bless.
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If your emotion was not the center of your theology, you might understand that I do not embrace free will.
That use derisive terms is not surprising, seeing that those whose theology is simply borrowed from the works of others seldom have an ability to engage in discussion apart from resorting to derision and mockery.
And the following shows a complete lack of understanding on quite a few fronts:
Got Scripture for that?
Can you show me where the Old Testament allowed for Eternal salvation in Christ by grace through faith?
I'm not asking for a quotation of "The just shall live by faith," I want you to show me a born again believer that trusted Christ's sacrifice for salvation.
And while your at it, show me where Christ died in the Old Testament.
Show me the Gospel of Christ in the Old Testament that was not still prophecy.
Being under Law is not defined as (self righteous).
Galatians 4:4
King James Version (KJV)
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
On the contrary, remission of sins was provided through the prescribed sacrifices.
Hebrews 9:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Now what the sacrifices of the Levitical Economy could not do, which you just implied in the equally absurd statement addressed above, was bring remission of sins in completion.
That is what "perfect" means, by the way, just in case you are in the least interested in what is actually meant.
And what those sacrifices could not do is bring Eternal Redemption, which has a point in time, that is, at the Cross:
Hebrews 9:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Furthermore, since it drives me nuts to see someone abuse Hebrews, consider:
Hebrews 10:1-4
King James Version (KJV)
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
The Writer keeps a consistent theme you would do well to pay heed to, and that is the Theme of Perfection, or...completion.
He makes it clear that the Law could not make perfect.
Yet you impose this into the Old Testament.
Hebrews 10:10-14
King James Version (KJV)
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
IN the future you would also do well not to choose Epistles you are obviously so unfamiliar with, because when you go on your proof-texting searches, that lack of understanding is going to get you into trouble.
The Old Testament Saint was not made perfect.
That is just a Bible fact.
And if you study Ch.10, you will see that just as was promised in the promise of the New Covenant, remission of sins in completion is what the Writer is trying to teach you. But you are still in ch.5.
Hebrews 8
King James Version (KJV)
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Now, go back and contrast this Scripture with the Promise in Ezekiel 36, and learn what it means that God does not do this for our sake, but...
Ezekiel 36:21-22
King James Version (KJV)
21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
Go and learn what that means.
God bless.
I have a question.
In the born again passage this statement is made by none other than, Jesus.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
What did Jesus mean when he said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh,"?
Exactly what was the process of this birth? I'm sure we all probably consider, an abortion, sin yet in the process of that which is born of the flesh is there sometime a natural miscarriage for whatever reason?
Could it be possible for the birth from above mirror that which is born of the flesh?
I can think of an interesting verse which I believe could be relative.
Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God. Isa 66:9
In the born again passage this statement is made by none other than, Jesus.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
What did Jesus mean when he said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh,"?
Exactly what was the process of this birth? I'm sure we all probably consider, an abortion, sin yet in the process of that which is born of the flesh is there sometime a natural miscarriage for whatever reason?
Could it be possible for the birth from above mirror that which is born of the flesh?
I can think of an interesting verse which I believe could be relative.
Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God. Isa 66:9
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This is stated in response to Nicodemus' statement:
John 3
King James Version (KJV)
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Now in all fairness to Nicodemus, I have heard it said that it was not actually physical birth in view, but a metaphorical analogy of a religious man...starting over.
But I take the view Nicodemus was genuinely asking this question based on the Lord's response.
The Lord goes on to say:
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Because we have water baptism, some think the Lord refers to Baptismal Regeneration, meaning one has to be water baptized in order to be saved. Some believe the Spirit is given at that time.
Because there is water at physical birth, some think the water in view is that associated with physical birth, hence the Lord is saying "One must be physically born and born of the Spirit to enter the Kingdom of God.
Neither of those are true because we cannot substantiate either a necessity for water baptism (though some try) nor a doctrine that suggests that babies that die in miscarriage or abortion are sent immediately to Hades to await eternal separation in Gehenna (Hell).
Keep in mind that water is often used in correlation with the Spirit of God in the New Testament, such as we see here (c.r. in green):
John 7:37-39
King James Version (KJV)
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
And we will see that again later in the post, but back to our current text:
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
The stipulation given is being born of water and the Spirit, which Nicodemus, as a revered teacher of Israel should have known, should have immediately called to mind the promise of God in the Hebrew Scriptures:
Ezekiel 36:22-27
King James Version (KJV)
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Instead, Nicodemus' response, in my view, is impertinent. Nowhere in Scripture is there anything that would generate such a response if Nicodemus did in fact consider Christ a "teacher from God." If he did, then he would have searched the Scriptures in order to find a relevant correlation.
And the key verse of your question:
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
In other words, "Nicodemus...you know the difference between physical birth and being born of the Spirit."
Christ is not teaching Nicodemus the difference here, I believe, rather, it is a rebuke for his impertinence.
There is no correlation between the two, as it is a given that no-one who has not been born physically will enter the Kingdom, which brings me to a point I wonder whether you have previously considered before: what Kingdom, if Nicodemus searched the Scriptures...would be in view in this conversation?
Would it be the Kingdom which Christ came to establish in building the Church?
Or would it be the Kingdom promised to Israel, which promise the disciples inquire about in Acts 1?
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
In other words..."Don't be amazed I would say you must be born again, Nicodemus, because you should know that God has promised cleansing and regeneration will be associated with that Kingdom. Regeneration by the Spirit is just like the wind, you know it's happening, but it is not a visible event like physical birth is."
It is exactly like it is stated in the promise in Ezekiel 36: it is not done because of the one that benefits from it, but for God's Name's sake. It is a cleansing which gives not a restored heart or a restored spirit, but both are new (hence we are new creations, not remodeled). It is God indwelling us that we might not only understand His will...but do it. That is what Ezekiel tells us, and Paul reiterates this:
Titus 3:4-5
King James Version (KJV)
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
We see that it is through God's kindness and love towards man, which is manifested in the Incarnation, that is...God with us.
Not by works of righteousness, but again for God's Holy Name's sake, He bestows mercy (unmerited on our part) and saves us. and that salvation is by the washing, the cleansing of regeneration (new birth) and renewing of the Holy Spirit, which is a reference, in my view, not in the Holy Spirit renewing us, as that is seen in the previous statement (washing of regeneration/new birth), but the renewal of the relationship with God that was lost in Adam which is accomplished by the indwelling of God in the believer.
Again we see the imagery of water associated with the Holy Spirit, which is not literal water of Christian Baptism, but the cleansing that is effected through the indwelling of God at which time we are made new creations.
And I would add that if you read Matthew 3 you will see three mediums referenced, water (John's Baptism unto repentance), fire (clearly judgment of the unrepentant, as this is contrasted with chaff which is burned up), and the Holy Spirit (clearly this is salvation in Christ because it refers to the wheat which is gathered into His Garner).
Another reference to water as a New Testament cleansing agent is seen here:
Ephesians 5:25-27
King James Version (KJV)
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Continued...
Another text specific to regeneration would be...
1 Peter 1
King James Version (KJV)
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
We see another reference to being born of God here:
1 John 5:1-5
King James Version (KJV)
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
And here:
John 1:12-13
King James Version (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
And one more text which some might miss:
James 1:17-18
King James Version (KJV)
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
What we take from these regeneration specific texts is that New Birth was promised in the Old Testament, given through Christ and the sending of the Comforter, is accomplished through the Gospel, and specifically faith in Christ's death, cleanses men, makes men new creatures they were not before, is effected by God, cannot be worked for, is not rewarded to men, and is completely dependent on the grace, mercy, and love of God towards man.
That's something to rejoice about, is it not?
Completely irrelevant in the sense that the human fetus is not a new creation, new creature, but a new person being born into the world. If we could tie this in we would also have to say everyone conceived meets the requirement of the demand of Christ that one must be born from above to enter into the Kingdom.
Everyone owes God for being conceived, but not everyone will be born from above.
Only insofar that we analogize the creation of new life. The fetus is physical, but the born again believer was already physical, bereft of spiritual life, and is just as much a new creation as the babe conceived in the womb, though spiritual.
Isaiah 66:7-9
King James Version (KJV)
7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
While we know that all of Israel that enters the Kingdom (which is what is in view here) will be born again (for no-one not born again will, as Christ taught, enter into that Kingdom when it is established, all unbelievers will be destroyed in the Sheep and Goat judgment), here we see that an existing "creation," if you will, Israel, is in view. The imagery is that of going through Tribulation for the result of a joyous occasion. Similarly...
John 16:20-22
King James Version (KJV)
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
This also brings to mind this picture given us in Revelation:
Revelation 11:7-10
King James Version (KJV)
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Going back to...
Isaiah 66:7-9
King James Version (KJV)
7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
...again, I think in view is God's promise that what He promises He will fulfill. He will not allow the tribulation His People suffer to end in anything but joy.
God bless.
1 Peter 1
King James Version (KJV)
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
We see another reference to being born of God here:
1 John 5:1-5
King James Version (KJV)
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
And here:
John 1:12-13
King James Version (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
And one more text which some might miss:
James 1:17-18
King James Version (KJV)
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
What we take from these regeneration specific texts is that New Birth was promised in the Old Testament, given through Christ and the sending of the Comforter, is accomplished through the Gospel, and specifically faith in Christ's death, cleanses men, makes men new creatures they were not before, is effected by God, cannot be worked for, is not rewarded to men, and is completely dependent on the grace, mercy, and love of God towards man.
That's something to rejoice about, is it not?
Completely irrelevant in the sense that the human fetus is not a new creation, new creature, but a new person being born into the world. If we could tie this in we would also have to say everyone conceived meets the requirement of the demand of Christ that one must be born from above to enter into the Kingdom.
Everyone owes God for being conceived, but not everyone will be born from above.
Only insofar that we analogize the creation of new life. The fetus is physical, but the born again believer was already physical, bereft of spiritual life, and is just as much a new creation as the babe conceived in the womb, though spiritual.
Isaiah 66:7-9
King James Version (KJV)
7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
While we know that all of Israel that enters the Kingdom (which is what is in view here) will be born again (for no-one not born again will, as Christ taught, enter into that Kingdom when it is established, all unbelievers will be destroyed in the Sheep and Goat judgment), here we see that an existing "creation," if you will, Israel, is in view. The imagery is that of going through Tribulation for the result of a joyous occasion. Similarly...
John 16:20-22
King James Version (KJV)
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
This also brings to mind this picture given us in Revelation:
Revelation 11:7-10
King James Version (KJV)
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Going back to...
Isaiah 66:7-9
King James Version (KJV)
7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
...again, I think in view is God's promise that what He promises He will fulfill. He will not allow the tribulation His People suffer to end in anything but joy.
God bless.
Zaac
Well-Known Member
I generally don't speak of this Calvin as he is not mentioned in Scripture. I base my belief upon what I see in Scripture. And simply from a logical perspective, it makes no sense to send Jesus to the Cross if we can just undo what HE does when He saves us.
God does not author confusion.
I passionately disagree. And so did the first English Baptists.
In response to your question, in bold: I don't know that I had any specific thoughts on hell way back then, as a child.
The Father gave them to the Son to save!
The Son carrying out the will of the Father saved those the Father gave him!... Because of that sacrifice the Father raised the Son from the dead!
The Holy Spirit brings comfort to those that the are in the Covenant of Grace are saved... How can any lose their Salvation?... To get to any heir of Salvation one would have to overthrow the Godhead!... Impossible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... That is why I'm OSAS!... Salvation is never in the WILL of the Sinner (Adam) only in the WILL OF GOD (Jesus the Christ)... Brother Glen
I don't "demonize" views other than my own, my friend. I simply disavow views that I don't believe are in accord with scripture or God's nature as revealed therein.
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