Featured Can a Born Again Christian lose thei salvation?

By that, do you mean denomination? Anyway, I am part of a very old, tiny independent, unaffiliated Baptist church which holds to the original Baptist position on the question/doctrine being discussed.

 

And all Baptist faiths are accepted here.

However, there are fellowships that call themselves Baptist that are actually something quite different, just as there are those who call themselves Baptists, and might even attend a Baptist Church, but are something different.

My Dad was in a Baptist Church that tried to teach him ecstatic speech.

I am not aware of any Baptist faith that historically embraced ecstatic speech, though this one shows the chances of finding one, lol.

And "Fundamentalism" is not exclusive to the Baptist Faith. In fact, I think the truest Baptist is a fundamentalist by nature, one who places the Authority of Scripture above any creed or statement of faith drawn up by men.

And fundamentally speaking, few of are fundamentally Baptists. Ever baptized anyone? I haven't (well not intentionally, anyway...).

But I will say that we should question any belief we are not ready t openly confess. That is not in keeping with Christianity. Fear of persecution is not the norm...expectancy of persecution is.

God bless.

 

All Baptist faiths might be accepted here, but all views are not. I have read many old posts, some by people who have been banned.

 

That's interesting. Would you quote the "Original Baptist position" which teaches loss of salvation?


God bless.

 

If unsound doctrine led to banning there would be fewer active members here, lol.

The fact that so many different views are held shows that the Forum has a tolerance for differing views among Baptists.

Is it really that bad?

It is a rejection of Hell, isn't it.

Or Universalism?

Either way, I am about to end my time here, so I hope you get some answers, my friend.


God bless.

 

"Original" -- I'm just talking about the position of the first English Baptists, lead by Helwys, who believed one could forfeit salvation.

 

Not exactly or completely. There were other views I read about.

End your time here? Not permanently, I hope.

 

A quote concerning loss of salvation?

Lord willing no, but I have been here too long in this visit already. Was planning on making today my last day but it seems Iconoclast just doesn't want me to leave.


God bless.

 

What I am missing is an address of the Scripture provided that shows your understanding stands in conflict with what is said elsewhere.

John 12:32

King James Version (KJV)

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


1 Corinthians 3:5

King James Version (KJV)

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

Does all men and every man refer only to sheep?

Not just free will, but a perverted teaching of the Elect.

And the travesty both views wreak on the Word of God, making a caricature of God and a joke of His salvation.

Here is a few more passages to consider:


Ephesians 3:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,



1 Timothy 2:3-5

King James Version (KJV)

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;




1 Timothy 4:9-11

King James Version (KJV)

9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

11 These things command and teach.




Titus 2:10-11

King James Version (KJV)

10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,


God bless.

 

This is article 7 from the Confession of Thomas Helwys of 1611. I posted the entire confession in my thread titled "Earliest Confessions" in the Baptist History section:


7. That men may fall away from the grace of GOD, (Hebrews 12:15) and from the truth, which they have received &acknowledged, (Hebrews 10:26) after they have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the HOLY GHOST, and have tasted of the good word of GOD, &of the powers of the world to come. (Hebrews 6:4, 5). And after they have escaped from the filthiness of the World, may be tangled again therein &overcome. (2 Peter 2:20). That a righteous man may forsake his righteousness and perish (Ezekiel 18:24, 26). And therefore let no man presume to think that because he hath, or had once grace, therefore he shall always have grace: But let all men have assurance, that if they continue unto the end, they shall be saved: Let no man then presume; but let all work out their salvation with fear and trembling.

 

Thanks.

Mr. Helwys is sadly mistaken, As he seems to miss this...


Hebrews 12

King James Version (KJV)

1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


Christ is the Author, and completer of our faith, even as Paul writes...


Philippians 1:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:


Scripture also attests we are...


1 Peter 1

King James Version (KJV)


2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



Hebrews 12:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;


Consider that what the writer points out is in reference to our witness in the world. Our conduct impacts others, and it is they that stand in danger of, not losing their salvation, but failing of the grace of God. Not "Lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble...whereby you are defiled," but many.

This context begins in the start of the chapter:


Hebrews 12

King James Version (KJV)

1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.


The point in view is be holy despite that which you go through. We are the ones warned against being wearied and faint in our minds. Christ is our example.

The key in understanding Hebrews 10:26 is first to understand the first part of the chapter, where there is the clearest statement of Eternal Security in all of the Bible:


Hebrews 10:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


"Perfected" here is a variant of the same word that is the root of "Finisher" in the above passage. It means complete as well.

The context refers to remission of sins, the sacrifice of the Levitical Service contrasted with the sacrifice of Christ. In vv.1-4 it is shown that the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sins, and that those who offered up the sacrifices could not be made perfect by those sacrifices:


Hebrews 10:1-4

King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Now watch the same thing being said here as we see in the proof-text:


Hebrews 10:15-18

King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

The statement is that when remission of sins is complete as promised that it would be under the New Covenant, there is no more offering for sins.


Now let's see it in the proof-text:

Usually offered by itself, where the context of the chapter is obscured, and seems to indicate no more sacrifice for sins for willful sin that seems indistinct, when we see it in the fuller context we better understand that the sin in view is rejection of Christ and the New Covenant:

These are adversaries because they have done that listed in v.29. Their punishment is worse than the Old Testament example given, which is rejection of the Covenant of Law (Called Moses' Law).

The reason that there is "no more sacrifice for sin" is because if one rejects the sacrifice of Christ, clearly defined in v.19...there is no sacrifice one can turn to for remission of sins. The writer has just told us that the Law could not make the comer thereunto perfect, and that the blood of bulls and goats can not take away sins, then stated those sanctified by the blood of Christ are made perfect forever, or in other words...have received remission of sins that was promised, which is complete, and requires "no more sacrifice for sins:"


Hebrews 8:10-12

King James Version (KJV)

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


Continue...

 

The problem here is missing the fact that this is in the midst of a rebuke of the audience, starting in about 5:10, where the writer rebukes them for being ignorant, of the First Principles of the Oracles of God, called the Principles of the Doctrine of Christ in 6:1.

It is an exhortation to progress from the foundational principles of the Law and to go on unto, yep, you guessed it...perfection.

Those things listed here are viewed by some to be speaking of Christians, Christian Principles, and only things that have been bestowed upon Christians, when in fact these things are ministries of the Comforter:


Hebrews 6:4-6

King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


In view are those being brought under conviction who fall away. In other words, they reject that ministry.

No man will be saved apart from those things listed here, but for those who respond to the Gospel we were not "once enlightened," meaning that has stopped, and we have not "tasted of the Heavenly Gift," we have received it.We have not partaken of the Holy Spirit, we have received Him, and we have not tasted of the Word of God, but have been born again by it. The powers of the world to come refers, I believe, to the ministry of the Spirit which in that world to come will be an everyday reality. In that day there were healings, miracles, and other establishing acts performed by the Apostles which we really have not witnessed ourselves.

And the way they crucify Christ again unto themselves is by offering up the sacrifices of the Levitical Services. This is why the writer tells them not to lay again the foundational principles:



Hebrews 6

King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Many see this as a Christian going on to maturity, but a Christian laying again the foundational principles of the Oracles of God would not be an issue of immaturity, it would be a rejection of Christ Himself. It is forbidden. So we if we impose a context of maturing here then the teaching would be tantamount to saying "Grow up or go to Hell."


Furthermore...

...if this were a matter of maturing...it would not be a matter of God permitting it.

Understand?

Then the text would mean "Grow up, or else, and by the way, I hope the Lord allows you to do that which He has commanded."

No, what he is saying is we, as a people, will progress to the perfection found in Christ if God allows.

Those in view are identified as false teachers frmthe beginning of the chapter, not believers:


2 Peter 2

King James Version (KJV)

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.


Cross reference Jude to see that without question these were never saved, but as the description is given it is clear they have always been lost:



20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


These have willingly rejected the truth. They are not saved, as some might think, but are the same ones in view in the verses leading up to this. Again, cross reference Jude with this chapter.

The context, like most of the Old Testament, is temporal. The "soul" in view is not the spirit of a man with eternal damnation in view, but a man in totality who's physical life is at risk because of sin.

If an eternal perspective were in view, then we would have a conflict with New Testament teaching which makes it clear that salvation is not of works, but through the kindness of God towards man, by grace, through faith. This would in fact nullify the Sacrifice of Christ and cast Christianity itself in doubt, because That revealed in the New Testament would certainly deny that the Law had a salvific element, or that it was not temporary.

My best suggestion would be to consider those things mentioned in this post and see if Mr. Helwys is not in fact a member of the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) who teaches works-based salvation.

I apologize for the brief treatment of these passages but it's late, and I am about spent.


God bless.

 

Thanks for your post, but I completely disagree with you and completely agree with Thomas Helwys, the General baptists, and the Free Will Baptists. They represent the views of the original Baptists in England, not the Particular Baptists who came later.

 

That is your choice, my friend. All I can suggest is that you make it a habit of giving the Word of God at least equal time that you give extra-biblical sources.


God bless.

 

The article of faith that I posted from Helwys contained several scripture references. I get my beliefs from scripture and the early churches, not someone's opinion.

 

Helwys offers an opinion:

So unless you feel his commentary is inspired Scripture then you can't say...

God bless.

 

Youtube? Seriously?

How about just opening the Scripture for me, if you feel I have spoken erroneously. lol

Which passages that I presented did not mean all?


God bless.