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Can a Born Again Christian lose thei salvation?
- Thread starter Robert William
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The video uses scripture, and I can't explain it better than the video.
Then enjoy your video, lol.
If you want to discuss the Scripture and the doctrine itself, let me know.
God bless.
Being man, I am not able to remove anyone from Our Lord's Hand. Including myself.
Very interesting and informative thread.
As to the question "Can a Born from Above Christian lose their salvation?" I'll answer in the negative. Why? Well, as the dear friend who lead me to the Lord many, many years ago said, "God ain't no indian giver." Yeah, I know, not theologically profound, but being that salvation is a GIFT, I just don't see Him demanding it back from me at some future time.
Okay, I've tossed in my two cents worth (more like 1/2 cent with inflation LOL), so I'll leave the discussion to the more theologically astute. :smilewinkgrin:
Have a blessed Sunday y'all!! :godisgood:
As to the question "Can a Born from Above Christian lose their salvation?" I'll answer in the negative. Why? Well, as the dear friend who lead me to the Lord many, many years ago said, "God ain't no indian giver." Yeah, I know, not theologically profound, but being that salvation is a GIFT, I just don't see Him demanding it back from me at some future time.
Okay, I've tossed in my two cents worth (more like 1/2 cent with inflation LOL), so I'll leave the discussion to the more theologically astute. :smilewinkgrin:
Have a blessed Sunday y'all!! :godisgood:
Very interesting and informative thread.
As to the question "Can a Born from Above Christian lose their salvation?" I'll answer in the negative. Why? Well, as the dear friend who lead me to the Lord many, many years ago said, "God ain't no indian giver." Yeah, I know, not theologically profound, but being that salvation is a GIFT, I just don't see Him demanding it back from me at some future time.
Okay, I've tossed in my two cents worth (more like 1/2 cent with inflation LOL), so I'll leave the discussion to the more theologically astute. :smilewinkgrin:
Have a blessed Sunday y'all!! :godisgood:
And that is the beauty of the Gospel...simplicity.
He did something we could not, which we did not deserve, and in spite of that He saved us.
And it is thought by some He would renege on His promises?
Romans 11:29
King James Version (KJV)
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
God bless.
Thousand Hills
Active Member
Something that's always stuck in my mind is something a former pastor said. Basically, that there are only three ways a person can become a part of a family. Being born into a family, adoption, and marriage. In all three cases scripture uses these illustrations: born of the spirit (John 3), adopted children (Romans 8), and the church as the bride of Christ (Eph 5).
If that truth doesn't give one assurance/security, I don't know what will.
If that truth doesn't give one assurance/security, I don't know what will.
The scriptures you gave are so beautiful, I thought I would show a few more verses.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
He also offered scripture verses right there in the body of his confession to back up his beliefs. He thus got his beliefs from scripture, just as I do, and just as most claim to do. Of course someone is wrong, but who is to say who that is? That's the beauty of being Baptist.
And that makes me think of D. James Kennedy speaking about the "I" religion, which he defined as that religious mentality that says in their heart "I keep a roof over my family's head; I don't beat on my wife; I don't kick the cat; I don't..." well, you get the picture, lol.
He went on to say that if you can successfully live your entire life and never sin, thus meeting that righteous standard that God does not just demand but Himself establishes, then, when you die, and enter Heaven, you can shove the Angels out of your way, stride up to God, and say...
"Move over...there's two of us now."
God bless.
He also offered scripture verses right there in the body of his confession to back up his beliefs. He thus got his beliefs from scripture, just as I do, and just as most claim to do. Of course someone is wrong, but who is to say who that is? That's the beauty of being Baptist.
Well, certain types of Baptists, lol.
Like I said the other day, or sometime, when I was first saved and began witnessing to people, a common statement I would hear was "Well, those Baptists sure know their Bibles!"
Another was "I don't trust Baptists...they believe "once saved always saved."
And usually both came from Catholics.
And that was really what motivated me in study. There was a standard there of an expectancy at least among some people. Now, some twenty or so years later, things have changed quite a bit. When I was first saved doctrines such as Annihilation and Soul Sleep were generally thought to be doctrines of cults.Hell was a basic Bible principle, whereas today it has become very popular in Modern Christendom (a term I use to indicate the professing Church Today, though not necessarily the confessing Church). I am surprised any more if I don't run into at least one person who has embraced one of those views.
But I agree, an association with any group does not necessarily mean those adherents embrace or even understand that group's doctrine, and for all of us, a reliance on Scripture should be another basic principle we live by. It does, I think, create a separation among professing believers. Doctrine divides, which the numerous faiths attest to. And how many types of Baptists there are I would not venture a guess, because in any given fellowship I would expect to find a smattering of probably all of them, lol.
But fortunately, in the better Baptist fellowships, those that have embraced the Eternal Security of the Believer are still the ones teaching.
No reason to question Helwys' salvation, to be sure. His doctrine, well, no man stands without the need of testing, lol. Those who don't, stand without a reason to be listened to.
I have been led to believe Ana-Baptists set a pattern for those rising out of the Reformation, and perhaps before. One thing I would say about those guys regardless of where I might disagree with them on other issues, is we have to give them credit for their view of Baptism, and teaching that a person must of themselves choose Christ.
Along the way I think that we probably owe a debt of gratitude even to some who we disagree with on certain issues. The sincerity of each believer coupled with the zeal with which that person embraces the Great Commission, could probably be illustrated by that Tree of Provision in which all who trust in Christ have been grafted into.
And with that said, I think it is about time for me to leave....
God bless.
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Brother Rebel,
I am not going to be on the forum much today, but wanted to do a quick post or two. I see one of the verses Helwys quotes is 2 Peter 2:20 to support his believe that a child of God can lose his salvation. Here is the passage in context, "20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." (2 Peter 2:20-22).
Notice the individual never ceased to be a sow by becoming a sheep (which is an animal symbolic of a child of God), but always remained a sow (or pig). A pig is not symbolic of a child of God, nor is a "dog" mentioned in verse 22. Jesus said, "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." (Matthew 7:6) Therefore to interpret this passage to mean the dog/pig was a child of God is not in line with what other scriptures give as characteristic of dogs or pigs representing the nonelect. To prove this simply do a word search in a Concordance on the words "sow" and "dog" and it leads to this inevitable conclusion based on the usage in throughout the Bible.
God bless,
Brother Joe
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Thank you for your response, Just a question concerning that passage you posted above specifically that in bold.
Is that speaking of a birth? If yes, whose? When?
Also:
And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Rev 12:2,5
Whose birth is that speaking of? When?
I am not trying to be smart here, but the reason you hold that view is because you do not understand the following.
what faith is
what repentance is
the work that Christ preformed for salvation verses the work of creation
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I see this as ultimately speaking specifically about Christ, which is how God will appear to "Israel's joy." As well as to the joy of the whole earth.
In view we see God speaking about who He will look upon, and how we will look upon them:
Isaiah 66
King James Version (KJV)
1 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
We see the Sovereignty and judgment of God, first to those who fear Him, secondly to those who reject Him and His will:
3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
His judgment will be upon those that He looks upon:
4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
This can be seen also in connection with eschatological events in the New Testament, where in Revelation we see man's fear expressed, and still they do not call out to God, but call out to the mountains to fall on them, and hide them from His wrath. Paul wrote He will send strong delusion on the people of that time, and cause them to believe the lie. The philosophy of the wicked is better dead and ignorant than under the thumb of God.
In this next section I will suggest to you that we see the "Comforter" of the Old Testament, Who is still God utilizing the revelation He has already given to man:
5 Hear the word of the Lord, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the Lord be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the Lord that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
Eschatological events have but one center, and that is Christ, because the testimony of Christ is the spirit, or life...of Prophecy.
But, we also see that there are other issues which take a temporal center, Jerusalem being one of them. Before "she" travails...she brought forth. This picture is seen in Revelation:
Revelation 12
King James Version (KJV)
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Israel is in view, and Christ is the central focus. Those reading the Scriptures in that day could not, as we do, see the culmination of Prophecy and the result of the birth of Christ.
And this is a promise of God in this Prophecy.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
The question is "...has this ever happened before? Can these things come to pass?"
The answer is no, this is a new work effected by God, and yes, they not only can, but we can be assured they will...because God has promised it.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
God is saying in a fashion which rebukes, in my view "...will I not accomplish that which I say will be?"
"Will I put you through tribulation which I have declared without also accomplishing that which the tribulation is to effect?"
The bottom line would be "These things shall come to pass. I will do that which I have said."
10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
And here, as it was intimated in the beginning of the Chapter, we see the general promise to the world, that the purpose God created Israel for would result in all the families of the earth being blessed through the Seed promised in the Garden, Who is the Christ promised in the Old Testament. It is not Israel we place the emphasis on, but the Redemption God intended from the first day of sin. He did not have to give thought about what He would do to rectify sin, but knew even then that which had to be done in order to bring man back into relationship with Himself.
It is not Israel that will be vindicated, but God. And those that have feared Him, and those that have rejected Him, will both one day see the accomplishing of those things prophesied here.
God bless.
Good discernment convicted.
Yes, I think because of his free willy idol he rejects the "L"
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Good discernment convicted.
Yes, I think because of his free willy idol he rejects the "L"
I don't actually reject limited atonement in the practical sense. I just don't nullify what Scripture teaches and go around thinking I'm saying something theologically deep in saying "Only the saved will be saved."
But, the topic of the OP isn't no-brainers.
God bless.
It's simple, if you are a free willy, you believe there are no vessels of dishonor without a free will choice.
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
My name was written in the Lamb's Book of Life. And there is no scripture saying that God has White Out or an eraser. So I feel SECURE :wavey:
Great, you want to proof-text your misunderstanding of my views?
Can you quote me as saying that which you charge me with here?
That is your burden.
And you will be seen as a slanderer.
Care to take up the challenge?
God bless.
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
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