Can a Calvinist deny Lordship salvation and hold to the sinners prayer?

[Tom Butler]

You misquoted Romans 10:9. It doesn't say confess that Jesus is Lord, it says confess the Lord Jesus. HUGE difference.

To say you must confess that Jesus is Lord is to argue that obedience is required to be saved, and obedience is WORKS.

To say you must confess the Lord Jesus is very slightly different, here you are simply expressing his title. Very subtle difference, but a difference just the same.

The scripture DOES NOT say you must confess Jesus as Lord.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Now, that said, I believe to be saved you must realize that sin has destroyed your life and will lead to eternal death and separation from God, so to repent and come to Jesus is a willful turning away from sin. I believe a person must desire to live a life of obedience to Jesus to be saved.

But salvation is obtained by trusting Jesus alone to save us, not our obedience to do good works the rest of our life. This is why salvation is a one-time event shown in scripture. And there could never be assurance if we must persevere in good works till the end. You would only be assured until the next time you sin, which is often.

You quoted the KJV, which you quoted accurately. Several other translations agree, but a lot of them do, in fact, translate the passage as confessing Jesus is Lord.

For instance:
ASV: "...confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord...."
AMP: "Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord..."
DARBY: "..that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord..."
ESV: "because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord...."
HCSB: "If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,”....'

That same verse also includes "believe" or "believe in your heart" that God raised Jesus rose from the dead.

I find it interesting that the HCSB (Holman Christian Standard Bible) gives us the words to say. "Jesus is Lord." And we must say them aloud, not just believe them as truth, according to 10:9.

I know this thread has wandered a bit from the OP, so maybe somebody could start a thread on exactly what are the mechanics of being saved.

Repent?
Believe in Jesus?
Confess aloud with words? (Such as "Jesus is Lord," "I believe," "I repent")
Call on the name of the Lord? (What do we say?)
Ask God to save you? ( As, Lord be merciful to me, a sinner)

All of the above?
Any one of the above?
Any two of the above.
Something else?

Or, to relate this to the OP, would a Calvinist give different answers from a non-Calvinist to these questions?

Okay, have at it.

 

[Tom Butler]

You misquoted Romans 10:9. It doesn't say confess that Jesus is Lord, it says confess the Lord Jesus. HUGE difference.

To say you must confess that Jesus is Lord is to argue that obedience is required to be saved, and obedience is WORKS.

To say you must confess the Lord Jesus is very slightly different, here you are simply expressing his title. Very subtle difference, but a difference just the same.

The scripture DOES NOT say you must confess Jesus as Lord.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Now, that said, I believe to be saved you must realize that sin has destroyed your life and will lead to eternal death and separation from God, so to repent and come to Jesus is a willful turning away from sin. I believe a person must desire to live a life of obedience to Jesus to be saved.

But salvation is obtained by trusting Jesus alone to save us, not our obedience to do good works the rest of our life. This is why salvation is a one-time event shown in scripture. And there could never be assurance if we must persevere in good works till the end. You would only be assured until the next time you sin, which is often.

You quoted the KJV, which you quoted accurately. Several other translations agree, but a lot of them do, in fact, translate the passage as confessing Jesus is Lord.

For instance:
ASV: "...confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord...."
AMP: "Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord..."
DARBY: "..that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord..."
ESV: "because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord...."
HCSB: "If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,”....'

That same verse also includes "believe" or "believe in your heart" that God raised Jesus rose from the dead.

I find it interesting that the HCSB (Holman Christian Standard Bible) gives us the words to say. "Jesus is Lord." And we must say them aloud, not just believe them as truth, according to 10:9.

I know this thread has wandered a bit from the OP, so maybe somebody could start a thread on exactly what are the mechanics of being saved.

Repent?
Believe in Jesus?
Confess aloud with words? (Such as "Jesus is Lord," "I believe," "I repent")
Call on the name of the Lord? (What do we say?)
Ask God to save you? ( As, Lord be merciful to me, a sinner)

All of the above?
Any one of the above?
Any two of the above.
Something else?

Or, to relate this to the OP, would a Calvinist give different answers from a non-Calvinist to these questions?

Okay, have at it.

 

[OldRegular]

This thread has gone completely OT thanks allot Winman! The discussion was not on Lordship or the sinners prayer, but was on if a Calvinist can deny/affirm them if that is at all possible.

I am curious! Just what do people consider a "sinners" prayer. I believe that all sincere prayer is a sinners prayer!

1 John 1:8-10
8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Tom Butler]

Sorry for the multiple posts. I tried to edit my post and something went awry. The edit I wanted to make was to ask another question regarding belief in Jesus.

The question is, what exactly do we have to believe?

And this one also occurred to me: Is there a difference in believing IN Jesus and believing ON Jesus (as in Acts 16:32)?

 

[Tom Butler]

I thought of a couple more questions.

Obviously, Romans 10:9 says we must believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. What else must we believe?

If we confess the Lord Jesus, to whom do we confess? To God Himself? Publicly, to other believers? Publicly, to anybody who will listen?

 

[Yeshua1]

Ahh....I see what you mean. I don't view Lordship Salvation in that manner. Is this the Reformed view of Lordship Salvation?

reformed salvation view os that when God saves a sinner, that power will prove/confirm/show that he was really one of the Elect chosen out by God by preserving himself unto the end, no falling away, going back etc...

The really saved shall lives lives worthy of their calling, and have fruit to evidence that truth...

Lordship salvations goes a bit further, as those advocating for that view seem to hold that Jesus must become established as Lord over all aspects of our lives before real salvation has happened, but think they overeact to just say the sinners prayer years ago, and still live as usually...

Jesus is the Lord over us once we got saved, and we should realize that truth, but that is an ongoing work in our lives, NOT iintial point of salvation!

They mix up Justification sad sauctification in this!

 

[JonC]

reformed salvation view os that when God saves a sinner, that power will prove/confirm/show that he was really one of the Elect chosen out by God by preserving himself unto the end, no falling away, going back etc...

The really saved shall lives lives worthy of their calling, and have fruit to evidence that truth...

Lordship salvations goes a bit further, as those advocating for that view seem to hold that Jesus must become established as Lord over all aspects of our lives before real salvation has happened, but think they overeact to just say the sinners prayer years ago, and still live as usually...

Jesus is the Lord over us once we got saved, and we should realize that truth, but that is an ongoing work in our lives, NOT iintial point of salvation!

They mix up Justification sad sauctification in this!

This is still difficult for me. Jesus is, IMHO, Lord over all of my live and not of only part, even though there are areas where I struggle. Jesus is Lord and I am therefore convicted of my sinfulness (the process of sanctification is directly related to the Lordship of Christ).

I take it, then, that the Reformed view of Lordship Salvation is not that when we are saved Jesus is both Savior and Lord, but that this perseverance which comes with the Lordship of Christ equates to sinless Christians or not Christian at all?

 

[Tom Butler]

To say you must confess that Jesus is Lord is to argue that obedience is required to be saved, and obedience is WORKS.

I read something a short time ago which I think more nearly reflects my view.

It is, that confessing Jesus as Lord is the outward reflection of an inward change.

Confessing Jesus as Lord is not an act which results in salvation. It is an act which is the result of salvation.

 

[Winman]

I read something a short time ago which I think more nearly reflects my view.

It is, that confessing Jesus as Lord is the outward reflection of an inward change.

Confessing Jesus as Lord is not an act which results in salvation. It is an act which is the result of salvation.

Yes, it is a very subtle difference. But there are two ways to look at it.

The easy-believism person (that's me) believes you are saved and cannot lose salvation. I am not working to be saved, but simply trusting Jesus will save me as he promised to save all those that come to him.

The lordship-salvation person believes they must be obedient to be saved. They can never relax, they must persevere to the end. They are always working.

I mean, watch Paul Washer and he beats his audience over the head. By the time he is finished, nobody in his audience believes they were EVER saved.

I've sat under evangelists like that before, you can have them.

 

[OldRegular]

I read something a short time ago which I think more nearly reflects my view.

It is, that confessing Jesus as Lord is the outward reflection of an inward change.

Confessing Jesus as Lord is not an act which results in salvation. It is an act which is the result of salvation.

You are correct according to Scripture!

1st Corinthians 12:3. Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

 

[OldRegular]

Yes, it is a very subtle difference. But there are two ways to look at it.

The easy-believism person (that's me) believes you are saved and cannot lose salvation. I am not working to be saved, but simply trusting Jesus will save me as he promised to save all those that come to him.

The lordship-salvation person believes they must be obedient to be saved. They can never relax, they must persevere to the end. They are always working.

I mean, watch Paul Washer and he beats his audience over the head. By the time he is finished, nobody in his audience believes they were EVER saved.

I've sat under evangelists like that before, you can have them.

I don't know but I suspect that MacArthur's justification for teaching Lordship salvation was to throw proper light on the "easy believism" salvation! Turns out after a little searching my suspicions were correct!

An Introduction to Lordship Salvation

What follows is from the Grace Community Church Distinctive on LordshipSalvation . It was adapted from John MacArthur's material on the topic of lordship salvation, and serves as an excellent introduction to the subject.

The gospel that Jesus proclaimed was a call to discipleship, a call to follow Him in submissive obedience, not just a plea to make a decision or pray a prayer. Jesus' message liberated people from the bondage of their sin while it confronted and condemned hypocrisy. It was an offer of eternal life and forgiveness for repentant sinners, but at the same time it was a rebuke to outwardly religious people whose lives were devoid of true righteousness. It put sinners on notice that they must turn from sin and embrace God's righteousness. Our Lord's words about eternal life were invariably accompanied by warnings to those who might be tempted to take salvation lightly. He taught that the cost of following Him is high, that the way is narrow and few find it. He said many who call him Lord will be forbidden from entering the kingdom of heaven (cf. Matt. 7:13-23).

Present-day evangelicalism, by and large, ignores these warnings. The prevailing view of what constitutes saving faith continues to grow broader and more shallow, while the portrayal of Christ in preaching and witnessing becomes fuzzy. Anyone who claims to be a Christian can find evangelicals willing to accept a profession of faith, whether or not the person's behavior shows any evidence of commitment to Christ. In this way, faith has become merely an intellectual exercise. Instead of calling men and women to surrender to Christ, modern evangelism asks them only to accept some basic facts about Him.

This shallow understanding of salvation and the gospel, known as "easy-believism," stands in stark contrast to what the Bible teaches. To put it simply, the gospel call to faith presupposes that sinners must repent of their sin and yield to Christ's authority. This, in a nutshell, is what is commonly referred to as lordship salvation.
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/A114

 

[JonC]

I don't know but I suspect that MacArthur's justification for teaching Lordship salvation was to throw proper light on the "easy believism" salvation! Turns out after a little searching my suspicions were correct!

So basically it's the "sinner's prayer" (Jesus as Lord and Savior) expounded upon. I agree with MacArthur.

 

[Revmitchell]

So basically it's the "sinner's prayer" (Jesus as Lord and Savior) expounded upon. I agree with MacArthur.

Where do you get the idea that easy believism is completely tied up in the sinners prayer?

 

[JonC]

Where do you get the idea that easy believism is completely tied up in the sinners prayer?

I don't get the idea that easy believism is at all (much less completely) tied up in the sinners prayer. I remember Graham's "sinner's prayer" where it was basically an acknowledgement that the person had realized Jesus as his Lord and Savior (that was actually my point, and I apologize for not being clear). If it is "easy believism" then it is on the part of the pastor and not the "prayer." I have no issue with the "prayer," only with its misuse (I believe it can, like Scripture, be misused to advocate an "easy believism). That said, I don't know that saying the prayer is the best method of explaining salvation to those being saved.

 

[Revmitchell]

I think and have seen its "misuse" as a result of poor discipleship and failure to communicate properly.

 

[JonC]

I think and have seen its "misuse" as a result of poor discipleship and failure to communicate properly.

I have also seen the misuse of Scripture. But those who are anti-"sinners prayer" or believe it to be "easy believism" are (I hope) speaking of this misuse rather than the practice itself. I suppose there is still an issue of "inviting" Jesus into one's heart for some...or as Spurgeon would say "come and drink"...or "call upon the Lord." But that is a straw-man issue not worth entertaining (IMHO, of course).

 

[Revmitchell]

Well its use is currently being condemned by some of our Rock Star theologians in the convention.

 

[JamesL]

Well its use is currently being condemned by some of our Rock Star theologians in the convention.

As it should be. It is a damnable heresy.

I'm not sure how you think its misuse is the result of poor discipleship ?? Can you explain ??

Does that mean the one who wasn't disciples properly is the one who misuses it?

If that's what you mean, I would agree some.

However, misuse should be understood as any use at all. It is a works-based, self righteous attempt to reach God thru a means which would leave room for boasting.

Plus, those who advocate it seriously misunderstand the context of Romans 10, and also misunderstand what is meant by "call on the name of the Lord" and "confess with your mouth"

 

[Revmitchell]

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[JamesL]

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Can you explain what 25 or so dots means? I've seen that before, but I seriously don't get it.

Does that mean "ditto" ??

Or maybe "I'm stumped" ??

Or "I'll get back to you" ??