Can a Calvinist deny Lordship salvation and hold to the sinners prayer?

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Faith is not a decision we make.

I disagree. Faith consists of four distinctives: Cognition (understanding the message), Volition (the will to commit), Affection (what the heart desires), and Action (the hands and feet of what we believe). Calvinists, of course, will deny that any of this enters into the process of salvation, that God zaps us with faith and we believe without going through any of those phases, simply because we are "the elect." If that were true, why does the average person need to hear the gospel 15 times before believing? No Calvinist can adequately explain that and remain true to the concept of election.

If it were, Jesus should have never chided the apostles for lack if faith after they believed in Him. They would have simply decided to believe, and it would have been settled.

That's where most people get tripped up, in not realizing these four distinctives, and the fact we need to revisit them on a daily basis. Cognition changes only as an increase, as we grow in knowledge and wisdom from the Scriptures. Volition can vary with mindset. There are times we want to act on our will rather than God's. Affection changes with our emotions. Sometimes we'd rather eat a Hershey bar than witness to our best friend. Action is the real driver of the reference you make, however. Jesus wasn't talking about whether they had faith or not. He was talking about whether they were willing to be His hands and feet, both during His Earthly ministry and particularly after His ascension.

He said some believed having seen, while others would believe having not seen. He told Thomas to see His hands and feet. Thomas would not believe until he was convinced.

Couple things here. First, there is no difference in faith through being an eyewitness, and faith through hearing the gospel. Both methods of coming to belief in Christ are equally effective. Second, Thomas was not a doubter. That is a description that has come from generations of people misunderstanding him, and not relating the other sparse mentions of him in the Gospels to what he said in John 20.

In Luke 11:16, we see Thomas ready to lead the other disciples to death alongside Christ. That's is nothing less than faith in action. It is saving faith and was probably the only real saving faith expressed by any of the disciples prior to the cross. Sure, Peter called Jesus "the Christ, the Son of the Living God" but he also denied Jesus three times the night of the crucifixion. He had cognition, but not volition, affection or action. Thomas seems to have had all four very early on.

Thomas was also one who wanted it all explained so he could grasp it. At the Passover meal, he spoke up boldly when Jesus said, "And you know the way where I am going," and said, "Lord, we do not know where you are going, how do we know the way?" To which Jesus confirmed for him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." That was all Thomas needed to hear.

Finally, the reputation Thomas has of being a doubter is because his words are misunderstood. In John’s Gospel, belief isn’t about an intellectual assent to some list of facts, but instead, belief is about a relationship. When Jesus died on the cross, Thomas believed the relationship also died. Thomas believed Jesus, he gave Him his heart and his hope, and he thought that belief couldn’t possibly live beyond the grave. In short, Thomas was heartbroken and inconsolable.

But if Jesus lived beyond the grave, something extremely hard to fathom, Thomas hope would be renewed, he could find again not just the cognition of faith, but also the volition, affection and action. Before he would give his heart again, Thomas wanted proof. And Jesus doubly affirmed his desire, because in meeting Thomas the following Sunday, Jesus spoke the exact words Thomas had spoken the week before. Note Thomas' next words: "My Lord and my God!" This is affirmation of two-thirds of the Trinity. Thomas wasn't a doubter, Thomas was perhaps the foremost servant of Christ at that time. We don't know for certain what happened to Thomas, other than he was martyred. But don't ever call him a doubter. He was not.

Paul, in Acts, went through the cities convincing people, they "became" believers.

How? Magically zapped by the Holy Spirit? Or through the hearing of the Gospel?

Becoming convinced of the gospel is purely a work if the Holy Spirit, not us. But we bear the burden of refusing to be convinced. It's called a stubborn heart, when we refuse to believe.

And you really can't see the impossible dichotomy your statement raises? No, it isn't the work of the Holy Spirit to convince us of the Gospel, though being convinced is impossible without the Holy Spirit. The work of the Holy Spirit is to draw us, call us, open our minds to the truth. It is, indeed, up to us to understand, commit, love and act.

 

[Winman]

Yes, faith is the only "requirement"

But faith is not some kind of active substance, where God gives you a spiritual water gun and you point it and pull the trigger. Faith in Christ is simply being fully convinced that what He set out to do, He finished.

Faith is not a decision we make. If it were, Jesus should have never chided the apostles for lack if faith after they believed in Him. They would have simply decided to believe, and it would have been settled.

He said some believed having seen, while others would believe having not seen. He told Thomas to see His hands and feet. Thomas would not believe until he was convinced.

Paul, in Acts, went through the cities convincing people, they "became" believers.


Becoming convinced of the gospel is purely a work if the Holy Spirit, not us. But we bear the burden of refusing to be convinced. It's called a stubborn heart, when we refuse to believe.

A person can absolutely decide to trust another. I could tell you to send me a thousand dollars, and I will guarantee to send you back two thousand dollars in two weeks.

You could absolutely decide you are going to send me that money no matter what.

See, you are confusing feeling with actual trusting. If you send me your money, have you trusted me? Absolutely. It doesn't matter how you feel.

If a stranger came up and asked to borrow your car for just ten minutes so he could take a friend to the hospital, could you decide on the spot to do so no matter how you feel? Of course you could. You could say, I am going to trust this guy and give him the keys to my car. If he steals my car, I am out of luck, but I am going to trust him.

And you give him the keys. That is trust, that is what it means to believe on Jesus. Just give yourself to him, doesn't matter how you feel, just do it.

You are confusing trusting with feeling. They are not the same. Trust or belief is a commitment, not a feeling.

Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.

 

[JamesL]

A person can absolutely decide to trust another. I could tell you to send me a thousand dollars, and I will guarantee to send you back two thousand dollars in two weeks.

You could absolutely decide you are going to send me that money no matter what.

See, you are confusing feeling with actual trusting. If you send me your money, have you trusted me? Absolutely. It doesn't matter how you feel.

If a stranger came up and asked to borrow your car for just ten minutes so he could take a friend to the hospital, could you decide on the spot to do so no matter how you feel? Of course you could. You could say, I am going to trust this guy and give him the keys to my car. If he steals my car, I am out of luck, but I am going to trust him.

And you give him the keys. That is trust, that is what it means to believe on Jesus. Just give yourself to him, doesn't matter how you feel, just do it.

You are confusing trusting with feeling. They are not the same. Trust or belief is a commitment, not a feeling.

Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.

Who the heck said anything about feeling?

Trust is not a commitment. You are muddling together believing and doing. Try reading Genesis 15:1-6, and Romans 4:21-24.

Abraham "believed in God" and it was credited to him as righteousness. Paul said he was FULLY ASSURED that what God had promised, He was also able to perform. THEREFORE, it was credited to him as righteousness.

full confidence is not "feeling". And if you again misrepresent what I've been stating, by trying to insinuate that I'm suggesting feelings, my discussions with you will end forevermore.

There isn't anything I detest in a debate more than someone twisting my words.

Have a nice night

 

[Winman]

Who the heck said anything about feeling?

Trust is not a commitment. You are muddling together believing and doing. Try reading Genesis 15:1-6, and Romans 4:21-24.

Abraham "believed in God" and it was credited to him as righteousness. Paul said he was FULLY ASSURED that what God had promised, He was also able to perform. THEREFORE, it was credited to him as righteousness.

full confidence is not "feeling". And if you again misrepresent what I've been stating, by trying to insinuate that I'm suggesting feelings, my discussions with you will end forevermore.

There isn't anything I detest in a debate more than someone twisting my words.

Have a nice night

I was not trying to put words in your mouth, but I would say lack of assurance is a very fearful thing.

But trust is a commitment. When you put money in the bank you are committing your savings to them, relying on them to keep your money safely. This is belief, this is trust, and this is something you can choose to do or not.

That faith is a commitment is shown by Paul in scriptures.

2 Tim 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

You have stated that to believe is to be persuaded, and indeed it is, but it also to commit one's self to Jesus for salvation and depend on him to keep and save your soul.

I have compared it to the olden days when firemen used nets to rescue folks. Someone might be trapped on the sixth floor of a building. They could try to climb down, but will most certainly fall to their death. Firemen below spread out a large net and call to the person to jump, promising to catch them. The person jumps, and the firemen do catch them. Jumping is an action, it is a work, but the person would not have jumped unless first they believed the firemen could catch them.

Likewise a person who prays for salvation must first have faith. If you do not believe Jesus is the Son of God who can hear your prayer and save you, you are not going to pray to him. If you believe he was just an ordinary man who died 2000 years ago, you are not going to pray for him to save you. So the prayer is simply an outward expression of inward faith.

And this is exactly what Paul says in Romans.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Paul asks, how is a person going to call on him in whom they have not believed? So, you must believe Jesus is the Son of God who can hear your prayer and has the ability to save you before you can possibly call on him.

The Pharisee prayed to God, but he was not saved. Why? Because he trusted in himself, in his own righteousness to save him. His prayer was not heard. The publican prayed quite differently, he cast himself upon God and depended upon God alone to save him. His prayer was heard and his sins forgiven.

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

I believe the Lord gave us this parable to show us how to be saved. To understand how to "believe" can be difficult and confusing, but any person can understand that it means to cry out to God for forgiveness. It is a casting of one's self on Jesus to be saved as shown here.

 

[Yeshua1]

Who the heck said anything about feeling?

Trust is not a commitment. You are muddling together believing and doing. Try reading Genesis 15:1-6, and Romans 4:21-24.

Abraham "believed in God" and it was credited to him as righteousness. Paul said he was FULLY ASSURED that what God had promised, He was also able to perform. THEREFORE, it was credited to him as righteousness.

full confidence is not "feeling". And if you again misrepresent what I've been stating, by trying to insinuate that I'm suggesting feelings, my discussions with you will end forevermore.

There isn't anything I detest in a debate more than someone twisting my words.

Have a nice night

Are you stating that we are NOT saved by Grace thru faith alone, but that we must act upon that faith and do required good works?

 

[JonC]

Here’s a pretty old (perhaps worn out) illustration of belief:


A man walking by a great cliff overlooking the ocean slipped. As he fell down the cliff he grasped a small root sticking out beside a rock. Hanging between life and death, he prayed for salvation. As he gazed upward, he saw an angel standing on the ground above his position. He pled for help. The angel asked, “do you believe I can save you?” The man, seeing his large strong arms, replied, “yes, I believe you can save me.” The angel asked, “Do you believe I will save you?” The man, seeing kindness and compassion in the angel’s face replied “yes, I believe you will save me.” The angel replied “if you believe I can save you, and you believe I will save you, then let go.”


I am sure we are all aware of the foolishness of analyzing illustrations as they tend to focus on one element of a subject and are, by nature, prone to error as a whole. But I believe this illustrates the difference between belief as a cognitive acceptance of something and a true faith in something. In the illustration, the man either let go because of his belief in the angel and was saved, or he held tight to the root until it broke and perished on the rocks below, although he possessed a belief of the angel’s strength and compassion. Or as James would say, faith without works is dead.



“Easy believism” is not defined by the method that brings the gospel but by the type of belief it encourages. I don’t think that we are saved by faith and works…but we are saved through a faith that produces fruit and by Christ. James uses works to define the faith.

 

[Yeshua1]

[

“Easy believism” is not defined by the method that brings the gospel but by the type of belief it encourages. I don’t think that we are saved by faith and works…but we are saved through a faith that produces fruit and by Christ. James uses works to define the faith.[/QUOTE]

But isn't the truth though that its faith alone in jesus and His work that is the bridge God uses for Him to apply the atoning Grace towards sinners, and THEN after salvation we will indeed have varying degrees of good works as evidence a change has happened?