Can a Christian be a Mason?

[Jim1999]

So, according to some of the views here, one should never take an oath of allegiance; should never take an oath in a court of law, when taking the office of president or other political office.

Also, we ought to abolish such organizations as the Lions Clubs, Kiwanis, Legions and all those other charitable organizations.....they all require oaths by the way.

I'm sorry, but I think we can stretch things more than an elastic band.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[mark]

We really seem to be blasting the Masons for things that are certainly NOT fundamental to Christianity and things we gladly accept from others. Jim Already pointed it out, that many groups do good works and the organization takes credit. Do good things and not giving God the glory happens everyday, and I daresay, by almost everyone. The second biggie is the oaths. We take oaths all the time. The President takes an oath, jurors take oaths, witnesses take oaths. For crying outloud, I practically took an oath when I sold Cubs autographs on ebay. Come up with a better reason to condemn them.
Gina, seriously, what is the specific issue or practice you would like addressed. I promise (oops an oath) I won't lie to you about the practices I observed.

 

[Gina B]

Mark, the specific issue:

Question 1. Would whether or not a church condones Masonry affect your choice to be a member there?

I wasn't thinking when I posted that I was wrong about them, but if someone wants to point out where they are or aren't than great.
Why do I think they're wrong?

1. 32nd degree person not able to talk about it and unwilling to accept Christianity because it didn't gel with whatever it is he believed from Masonry.

2. Another member not willing to tell me if the one handshake was the same as one of the Mormon temple ones because if I knew it, it would endanger me physically if people found out.

3. The resemblance I've HEARD exists between the Mormon and higher up Mason ceremonies. The Apron, the Handshake, the secret name for God, the symbols, the blood oath, although I believe the blood oath has been dropped at least in wording out of the Mormon temple ceremony.

My belief that if nothing is wrong with something EXPOSE IT TO THE LIGHT and let everyone see that it's pure.

Gina

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Bro. Glen Wrote:

I don't believe you will find Mason among the Primitive Baptist but then Brother Jeff knows more about the PBs than I do and there is probably is a faction somewhere and maybe not?..

There are some Primitive Baptists (mostly in Kentucky) who will accept masons as members, others will not. The fellow who lives across the street from me is a Primitive Baptist and a mason (his membership is in a Kentucky church). There ain't many in this category though.

As to whether or not Masons are totally evil or cultish, I cannot say. I have never been to a lodge meeting. I suspect the whole thing is a bit overblown (the negative reactions to Masonic lodges). It is not something that I would do, nor something that I would recommend. That said, I will not give a blanket condemnation of something of which I know only by rumour.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
So, according to some of the views here, one should never take an oath of allegiance; should never take an oath in a court of law, when taking the office of president or other political office.

I would say that oathes of allegiance or oathes to uphold the rule of law are quite different from oathes of secret societies as they relate to Christians. The prior are oathes specifically establish a public intent accepting public accountability. The latter is an attempt for whatever reason to avoid public scrutiny.

Also, we ought to abolish such organizations as the Lions Clubs, Kiwanis, Legions and all those other charitable organizations.

That is not what I said, maybe someone else did? I personally think it would be wrong (in the wood, hay, and stubble sense) for a Christian to do good works in the name of these groups. Good works for a Christian are an opportunity to evangelize and bring glory to God. Efforts to do good outside of God's will and glory are contrary to biblical principle.

I am sorry you think this is stretching something.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by mark:
Do good things and not giving God the glory happens everyday, and I daresay, by almost everyone.

True but should this be the ideal for a Christian? Should we go out of our way to participate in groups that compete with God for the glory of our good deeds?

Come up with a better reason to condemn them.

I don't condemn them by any stretch. I am simply stating what I think the Bible teaches for an ideal principle on the matter.

 

[Johnv]

Would whether or not a church condones Masonry affect your choice to be a member there?
For me, it would. I tend to see what the position of the SBC is, when it comes to some uncertainties I have.

32nd degree person not able to talk about it and unwilling to accept Christianity because it didn't gel with whatever it is he believed from Masonry.
Freemasonery doesn't prevent Christians from joining, and it doesn't prevent non-believers from keeping involved if they become CHristians while in the order. But I've always said, if you'r a part of something, even if it's boy scouts, and it's negatively impacting your faith, then you should drop it. I was in scouts with someone who did just that. Meanwhile, I remained active in my church AND scouts.

Another member not willing to tell me if the one handshake was the same as one of the Mormon temple ones because if I knew it, it would endanger me physically if people found out.
It's been rumored that they have secret handshakes to secretly identify themselves. Yet that doesn't make sense, because a Mason is supposed to be openly proud of his membership, as is often demonstrated by the wearing of tie tacs and lapel pins that are emblazoned with the Mason logo (a builder's square and scribing compass). But, as e-rumors would have it, I did a search on the internet, and found several sites claiming to have photos of GW Bush, Charles Stanley, Billy Graham, Robert Schuller, James Kennedy, and even Jerry Falwell, all displaying some sort of "secret masonic handshake".

The resemblance I've HEARD exists between the Mormon and higher up Mason ceremonies. The Apron, the Handshake, the secret name for God, the symbols, the blood oath, although I believe the blood oath has been dropped at least in wording out of the Mormon temple ceremony.
Just spouting off the top of my head, the mormons haven't been around for that long, while the masons have been around for hundreds of years. So if there are any intentional similarities, I would point blame on the Mormons, but that's just my $.02. On the other hand, some of these similarities could be coincidental. After all, there are a lot of similarities between Judeo-Christianity and LDS Christianity, but I don't think we can be blamed for them.

 

[Johnv]

...should [doing good things and not giving God the glory] be the ideal for a Christian?
Not sure what you're getting at. Boy Scouts do good things and "don't give God the glory". I'd think it's up to the individual who is a scout, a mason, an elk, or moose, to give GOd the glory individually.

Should we go out of our way to participate in groups that compete with God for the glory of our good deeds?
I don't think these groups do.

 

[romanbear]

Hi Gina;

I disagree with Jim mostly because you don't just up and quit free masonry, once you reach a certain level.My brother that is my blood related brother is a 32nd degree mason and it grieves me because I know what masonry is.Jim is wrong in that what goes on in secret behind closed doors hasn't been a secret for a long time.A man named Aliester Crowley( not sure of spelling) spilt the beans a long time ago about the masons. He was grand something or other in the mason and broke his oath.When you are first sponsered by another mason to join you are lied to about the initation.You are told to believe in a lie.This is done for the first couple of degrees of rank until you are assured of your being loyal to the group.
Other mason's to be aware of is our president and The last five that I know of are or were masons.I'd like to say this no one fools around with pentagrams for long before they find out the true meaning of them.The Fez or cap they wear on there heads is blood red for a reason.Why don't you ask Jim what it's meaning is I'll bet you He won't answer.It's probably one reason he left.
Truth You cannot serve two masters and Jim choose the right one...Thank God you did Jim
Mark

You were only 3 degrees you just barely scratched the surface.The fact that both of you would defend a secret orginzation says a lot about you.Do you keep your approns to be burried in?It's obvious to me that we can't take what you say about them to be anything because of your oath.
Gina

there is a book out by John Ankerberg and John Weldon called the Secret teachings of the masonic lodge It's a Christian perspective on this subject and these men haven't lied about the Masons.
May God Bless you.
Romanbear
Peace

 

[Johnv]

GW Bush is not a Mason. This is one of those e-rumors that won't die.

Here's a list of US Presidents who were Masons:

James Buchanan
Gerald R. Ford
James Garfield
Warren G. Harding
Andrew Jackson
Andrew Johnson
Lyndon B. Johnson
William McKinley
James Monroe
James Polk
Theodore Roosevelt
Franklin D. Roosevelt
William Howard Taft
Harry S. Truman
George Washington

[ January 06, 2003, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

[romanbear]

Hi JohnV;
I disagree with your matter of fact tone. Both Bushes are masons and george senior is a 32nd degree mason.
Romanbear
Peace

 

[Ben W]

Can anyone explain to me why it is o.k to swear an oath to the masonic lodge, when Jesus says specifically not to?

Simply quoting other organisations that require oath taking or government authorities like courts that do the same thing, is not anything like an answer. Tell me specifically why it is o.k to do exactly the opposite of what Jesus Said.

 

[Jim1999]

Ben says:

Can anyone explain to me why it is o.k to swear an oath to the masonic lodge, when Jesus says specifically not to?
_______________________________________________

The poor Apostle Paul is in great trouble, I fear......."As God is my witness.......I call God for a witness upon my soul.....Before God, I lie not...." (Rom 1:9; 2 Cor 1:23; Gal 1:20) I would submit these are all pretty strong oaths.

Seeing as the Apostle Paul uses oaths responsibly, oaths are not totally forbidden in our Lord's statement in Matthew 5:34 and we must seek a different understanding of that passage. Is He not referring to Levitical laws?

Just be certain that your yes means yes and your no means no. When you make a solemn promise it might better be true.........in ALL things.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Even if all other reports of masonic goings on are false, "a higher power" is enough to make me pass.

Then you'd have to pass on:

Alcoholics Anonymous
The Boy Scouts
The Girl Scouts
The Elks Club
Habitat for Humanity

Lets see...

From A.A.s 12 steps: "2, Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. 3, Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. "

Sounds nice, but a step down from Acts 4:12, so yeah, pass

A quote from constitution of British Boy Scouts: "The Association is first and foremost a Christian organisation and seeks to serve the Christian Church as a means of advancement of the Christian Faith. This is achieved through local Churches sponsoring BBS & BGS Groups or Companies, in which leisure, education and Christian influence are combined in an attractive way. It can provide both an activity for Christian young people and be the means of introducing young people to the Christian Faith" Part 1 General Principles 3.1" (from http://www.worldscouts.free-online.co.uk/bbs/bbs.htm)

British Girl Scouts is same. So ok

Unsure of US version, couldn't find exact info on them.

Took some doing to dig up the Elks too..From their site: "Today's guidelines for membership are that the candidate be invited to join, be a citizen of the United States, and believe in God." Looks like they do a lot of "nice" things (Elks Overview), will keep digging and see what they mean by "God"

Habitat for Humanity: Habitat as a Christian Ministry Sounds ok here

Any more?

Pete

 

[mark]

Gina said:"Mark, the specific issue:

Question 1. Would whether or not a church condones Masonry affect your choice to be a member there?

I wasn't thinking when I posted that I was wrong about them, but if someone wants to point out where they are or aren't than great.
Why do I think they're wrong?

1. 32nd degree person not able to talk about it and unwilling to accept Christianity because it didn't gel with whatever it is he believed from Masonry.

2. Another member not willing to tell me if the one handshake was the same as one of the Mormon temple ones because if I knew it, it would endanger me physically if people found out.

3. The resemblance I've HEARD exists between the Mormon and higher up Mason ceremonies. The Apron, the Handshake, the secret name for God, the symbols, the blood oath, although I believe the blood oath has been dropped at least in wording out of the Mormon temple ceremony.

My belief that if nothing is wrong with something EXPOSE IT TO THE LIGHT and let everyone see that it's pure.

Gina "

Ok I will address these as honestly as I can.
"Question 1. Would whether or not a church condones Masonry affect your choice to be a member there? " I believe in the Baptist principle of Individual Sole Liberty, that each person decides issues like this for themselves. I have not been to a meeting or paid dues for 23 years, so maybe I am not the best one to answer this, but whether a church allows members to be Masons or not would not affect whether I joined or not. I don't think there are any practicing Masons in my IFB church, but I would be really surprised to find if I was the only "former" Mason.

1. "32nd degree person not able to talk about it and unwilling to accept Christianity because it didn't gel with whatever it is he believed from Masonry." Ummm by not-talk-about-it do you mean discuss the ceremony? Then yes that is true, member of societies like the Masons don't discuss the rituals at any level. My dad is a 32nd degree Mason and he has never hidden the fact, in fact he is a proud member of the Consistary (spelling). As far as believing in Christianity, I have not found a conflict in DeMolay and Christianity or in the Blue Lodge (1st 3 degrees) and Christianity, with the noted exception of taking oaths. My Dad was saved after being a 32nd Degree Scottish Rite Mason. He is by NO MEANS a strong Christian. He has denied to me any conflict, but I cannot answer this from first hand knowledge. Sorry. I am not being evasive. I have known strrong Christian men who were Masons, even higher degree masons, but not many.

2. "Another member not willing to tell me if the one handshake was the same as one of the Mormon temple ones because if I knew it, it would endanger me physically if people found out."
I don't know about Mormon handshakes. To be honest, I didn't even know that the Mormons had handshakes. I have however heard that there are many similarities between Masonic ritual and Mormonism, which was one of the things that made me uncomfortable enough to leave. The other problems in this vain that I was uncomfortable was the phrase "so mode it be", which may have Satanic implications and the 5 pointed star of the Eastern Star. On the other hand our US has 50 five-pointed stars.

3. "The resemblance I've HEARD exists between the Mormon and higher up Mason ceremonies. The Apron, the Handshake, the secret name for God, the symbols, the blood oath, although I believe the blood oath has been dropped at least in wording out of the Mormon temple ceremony." Again, I have heard the same things, but Masonry predates Mormonism and seem likely that Mormonism took Masonic ritual rather than the other way around. It is possible that both were handed down as secret symbolism from Satan. I am not being silly or ridiculing this idea. It is a serious possibility and scary enough of a possibility (not probability) to make me leave the Lodge. The problems with this idea is that we are painting an organization as evil because Mormon leaders once belonged to it. Also we Baptists are enthusiatic to say that Satanic symbols and phrases are so powerful, but we dismiss the symbols and rituals of early churches passed down to today like the Orthodox churches and the Roman Catholics. I see it as hypocritical to say Satanic symbols and rituals carry all kinds of power, but Christian ones do not.

I have noticed that many former Masons who become Christians (like myself and old DeMolay friends of mine) leave the Lodge for the reasons pointed out AND also acknowledge the power of symbols of all kinds more than most evangelical Christians. At the same time "former" Masons such as myself are willing to defend Masonry because we have seen the good works done by the members of Lodges and know the many good men involved.

I am not active in Lodge and have no desire to be, but other than the things I have mentioned in this reply cannot condemn this organization and believe it to be a superior non-religious organization to most othersa i have belonged to or known about first hand, such as the Jaycess, the Lions clubs, etc.

 

[mark]

Romanbear wrote "Mark You were only 3 degrees you just barely scratched the surface.The fact that both of you would defend a secret orginzation says a lot about you.Do you keep your approns to be burried in?It's obvious to me that we can't take what you say about them to be anything because of your oath."

TO be a Master Mason, "the highest level you will ever obtain" you have only to go through the first 3 degrees. The other degrees are additional, not higher. However you are correct. I was uncomfortable with the degrees and chose not to go any further with them, so I cannot really tell you anymore about them.

Just what does the fact that I defend an organization filled with good men who do good works say about me?

I do not have my apron, though it would not surprise me to learn that my dad kept it. And no I will not be buried in it.

I am insulted by the insinuation that you don't trust me (because I was initiated in the Blue , as a brother in Christ (assuming you are Christian).

 

[Gina B]

Thank you Mark.

Just as a note, I'm not equating the symbols as being wrong because they resemble mormon ones or think they got them from there, I'm noting the similarities because I'm familiar with Mormonism and what the symbols mean when used by them.
For all I know the Masons could be wearing white aprons because they cook at the meetings and white ones are cheaper.

Given the number of similarities I've heard I came up with they're probably not innocent meaningless things though.
Gina

 

[mark]

Dear Gina and others,
I just had lunch with my pastor and we had the best talk about this. I do not feel a huge loyalty to the Masons, except through and because of DeMolay. My pastor and I discussed at length, how has organizations like DeMolay instilled values, loyalties and precents into their members that have lasted decades, where the church has failed. A DeMolay (even very old senior DeMolays) will not say something bad about a brother DeMolay, but a Christain will bad-mouth a brother Christian in a heart beat (just look at this thread!) You won't find a widow of a Mason (who was active) that needs all kinds of assistance because they take care of their own. Why doesn't the church. WE in the church are suppose to, but we don't. Instead of blasting the Masons, maybe we should be learning from them.
Mark
PS To Gina, I appreciate your honest interest... I really do.

 

[Johnv]

Romanbear, you'r flat out wrong. The Neither George Bush I or II are Masons.

Titus, Neither AA, nor the Elks, nor similar organizations, define God. AA has members who are Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Mormon, JW, Muslim, Shinto, Buddhist, non-religious, etc etc ..

Boy Scouts and Girls Scouts are not Christian organizations, and do not instruct their members on what to believe in when it comes to God. They have chapters at are associated with churches, synagogues, mosques, and temples, but also have chapters that aren't associated with houses of worship at all.

Habitat for Humanity is a Christian organization, but does not require the recipients of their homes to be Christian. Nor does it require its volunteers to be Christian.

 

[romanbear]

Hi Mark;

I didn't mean to insult you. It's not you it's the mason secret oath that I don't trust.

Romanbear

Peace