Can a Christian sin?

[Marcia]

Your spirit doe not sin, after salvation. It cannot sin, for it is born of God.

BBob,

You are making a duality where there is none. We are made a body/mind/soul or spirit unity. Our body is separated after death but we get it again later.

When we sin, it's not just our body; it's our mind and will that does that.

Are you saying that you do not sin? Please answer.

 

[DHK]

1Cr 15:36[Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

This verse speaks of the resurrection. Every believer waits for it.

You soul had to die dead to the love of sin, in order to be made alive in Christ Jesus.

False, if not heresy. When I was born again, I was redeemed--both soul and spirit. God wiped the slate clean. He forgave all my sins--past, present and future. If the soul died, then I would have been dead physically. I don't die and go to heaven the day I get saved. What kind of theology is that!

Your body will die the natural death, in order to be made alive spiritually.

Providing the Lord doesn't return first my body will die, and then it will wait in the grave until Christ comes. Then it will rise, or be made alive, as you say.
Thus the Bible says: "we wait for the redemption of our bodies."

No part of you can be saved, except it die first and that includes the body.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Don't know what you are trying to prove here.
It says in Ephesians that every unsaved person is dead. They are dead spiritually. When saved they are made alive; alive in Christ.
In James it says that death is the separation of the spirit from the body. The body goes to the grave and the spirit goes to heaven. We have been saying that all along.

Your spirit doe not sin, after salvation. It cannot sin, for it is born of God.

BBob,

You sin every day Bob. You sin every time you misrepresent someone on this board. You sin every time you get frustrated, angry, etc. We all sin--every day. We sin because we have a sin nature which gives us a propensity to sin but does not force us to sin. We sin because we choose to sin, and we are accountable for it.
When you say you cannot sin, you sin again.
For he that says he does not sin makes Christ a liar and there is no truth in him. That is what the Bible says, not I.
I have explained 1John 3:8,9 to you before. I have quoted a Greek authority to you. You have rejected both my explanation and an authority on the Greek language. You, in essence, reject the teaching of the Word of God here.
You do sin after salvation, and you know you do; you have even admitted to it. So why be hypocritical (another sin) about it now?

 

[Brother Bob]

This verse speaks of the resurrection. Every believer waits for it.

And that is when you shall be delivered or saved from the corruptible body.

False, if not heresy. When I was born again, I was redeemed--both soul and spirit. God wiped the slate clean. He forgave all my sins--past, present and future. If the soul died, then I would have been dead physically. I don't die and go to heaven the day I get saved. What kind of theology is that!

Do you still love sin, or did you die dead to that love?

Providing the Lord doesn't return first my body will die, and then it will wait in the grave until Christ comes. Then it will rise, or be made alive, as you say.
Thus the Bible says: "we wait for the redemption of our bodies."
Paul said you had to die in order to be quickened. How can you be made alive, except you die.

How could you be made alive in Christ Jesus, except you were dead in sin.

[/b]Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

That is why the Spirit is going to heaven and the body to the grave, for the wages of sin is death. You do not die because you were redeemed, you die because of sin. Your soul does not die though, wonder why??

Don't know what you are trying to prove here.
It says in Ephesians that every unsaved person is dead. They are dead spiritually. When saved they are made alive; alive in Christ.
In James it says that death is the separation of the spirit from the body. The body goes to the grave and the spirit goes to heaven. We have been saying that all along.

Very good, the soul goes to heaven because its been cleansed up and the body goes to the grave until the resurrection.

You sin every day Bob. You sin every time you misrepresent someone on this board. You sin every time you get frustrated, angry, etc. We all sin--every day. We sin because we have a sin nature which gives us a propensity to sin but does not force us to sin. We sin because we choose to sin, and we are accountable for it.
When you say you cannot sin, you sin again.
For he that says he does not sin makes Christ a liar and there is no truth in him. That is what the Bible says, not I.
I have explained 1John 3:8,9 to you before. I have quoted a Greek authority to you. You have rejected both my explanation and an authority on the Greek language. You, in essence, reject the teaching of the Word of God here.
You do sin after salvation, and you know you do; you have even admitted to it. So why be hypocritical (another sin) about it now?

Never have said I do not sin, but I have a carnal mind and that is where the sin is and in my flesh. My spirit does not sin, after being "born again". It is made free from sin.

Scripture says he that says he loves Him and keeps not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

You are making a duality where there is none. We are made a body/mind/soul or spirit unity. Our body is separated after death but we get it again later.

When we sin, it's not just our body; it's our mind and will that does that.

Are you saying that you do not sin? Please answer.

I have never said we do not sin. I do not sin in the spirit. Jesus is there, does He sin, the Holy Ghost is there, does it sin??

You just made the duality also, your body is going to the grave, because it can't go to heaven, because of sin. Your soul is going to heaven, because it was cleansed in the blood of Christ. If it had sin, it would go to hell.

It has everything to do with this topic, the last enemy to be destroyed is death, the natural death, then we in the body shall have the victory over the grave, by the blood of Jesus Christ.

You ever wonder why your soul will go to heaven at your natural death, but your body will not?? There is a reason for it.

BBob,

 

[Joe]

Romans 7:22-25(NKJV )
For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! 
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[DHK]

You ever wonder why your soul will go to heaven at your natural death, but your body will not?? There is a reason for it.

BBob,

Yep, It is called the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

 

[Joe]

In reading the threads, it seems the misunderstanding is when salvation actually takes effect.

I could be wrong on both ends but Bob appears to be saying salvation actually takes effect when the fleshy body is dead. Not at the exact moment a person accepts Christ as Savior.
If that is true, then this would be the logical conclusion imho.
The moment in time when someone is saved prior to the fleshly death would not be as important then (it appears)

This would mean...here's an example: if someone sinned a sin unto death (let's say drunkeness or adultery) in a car, then seconds later it rolled over a cliff, unless the person repented becoming ontrack with the Lord mere seconds before their death occured, they have lost salvation.

All the good works and obedience to the Lord decades prior to these few minutes do not count.
The only thing the Lord is focused on are the mere seconds or minutes prior to the fleshy death. He doesn't judge whether to save someone based upon their whole life, but the last minutes of it depending upon whether there was time to repent.




VS....

DHK and Marcia appear to say salvation became effective immediately upon accepting christ as savior, that salvation doesn't wait to take effect until the fleshly body dies. Both seem to be saying when we accept Christ as Savior and follow him, we are saved from that moment on.

 

[DHK]

Never have said I do not sin, but I have a carnal mind and that is where the sin is and in my flesh. My spirit does not sin, after being "born again". It is made free from sin.

Scripture says he that says he loves Him and keeps not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.

BBob,

Scripture does not contradict itself:
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

You sin because you want to sin. You spirit sins. Your soul sins. One cannot sin without the other. They are both joined together. You cannot separate the two. So connected are they that even the Bible uses the two terms interchangeably.

What is the "heart"? Is it the soul or the spirit?
What is the "mind"? Is it the soul or the spirit?

What did Jesus say?
Mark 7:21-23 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

What is "within a man"? Is it the heart? the mind? the soul? the spirit?
Can you differentiate?
Out of the spirit of man comes these things. Your spirit is sinful, just as sinful as your soul.

Acts 18:25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
--Apparently Apollos hadn't even been saved yet. He knew only the baptism of John. But he was fervent in spirit. What spirit?

 

[Marcia]

I have never said we do not sin. I do not sin in the spirit. Jesus is there, does He sin, the Holy Ghost is there, does it sin??

You just made the duality also, your body is going to the grave, because it can't go to heaven, because of sin. Your soul is going to heaven, because it was cleansed in the blood of Christ. If it had sin, it would go to hell.

It has everything to do with this topic, the last enemy to be destroyed is death, the natural death, then we in the body shall have the victory over the grave, by the blood of Jesus Christ.

You ever wonder why your soul will go to heaven at your natural death, but your body will not?? There is a reason for it.

BBob,

BBob, just because the Holy Spirit is in you, that does not mean you are the Holy Spirit. You are still you! Yes, you still sin and it's not just your body.

I did not say the body goes to the grave because it sins. God has ordained that our bodies are resurrected at the end, at the final judgment time. He does not tell us why.

Our bodies are not more sinful than our minds/spirits are. You seem to think sin resides in the body.

My mind/spirit/soul is not righteous - it is covered by Christ's righteousness, which is another thing.

 

[Brother Bob]

In reading the threads, it seems the misunderstanding is when salvation actually takes effect.

I could be wrong on both ends but Bob appears to be saying salvation actually takes effect when the fleshy body is dead. Not at the exact moment a person accepts Christ as Savior.
If that is true, then this would be the logical conclusion imho.
The moment in time when someone is saved prior to the fleshly death would not be as important then (it appears)

This would mean...here's an example: if someone sinned a sin unto death (let's say drunkeness or adultery) in a car, then seconds later it rolled over a cliff, unless the person repented becoming ontrack with the Lord mere seconds before their death occured, they have lost salvation.

All the good works and obedience to the Lord decades prior to these few minutes do not count.
The only thing the Lord is focused on are the mere seconds or minutes prior to the fleshy death. He doesn't judge whether to save someone based upon their whole life, but the last minutes of it depending upon whether there was time to repent.




VS....

DHK and Marcia appear to say salvation became effective immediately upon accepting christ as savior, that salvation doesn't wait to take effect until the fleshly body dies. Both seem to be saying when we accept Christ as Savior and follow him, we are saved from that moment on.

Thanks Joe;
But I believe in two men, the inward man, who at accepting Christ is made alive in Him and raised to walk a newness of life. His sins have been cleansed up and when the natural death comes, that inward part (soul) will go to heaven, because it has no sin. The outward man on the other hand is not cleansed up, but is still in a dead state and will not be make alive in Christ until the resurrection. Then both soul and body will be perfect and go to heaven to live forever.

I believe when we accept Christ our inward man is "born again" and the outward man receives the promise of God that he also, will be delivered from the bondage of corruption unto the glorious liberties of the Children of God, in the resurrection.

I believe the inward man who delights after the law of God is the "perfect" man that has already cleansed up. I believe that is how you can explain many scripture, especially 1John, which say he that is born of God cannot sin. It also says, he who says he hath not sin, is a liar. If you believe as I do, those scripture are simple.

Hope that explains my belief.

 

[Brother Bob]

BBob, just because the Holy Spirit is in you, that does not mean you are the Holy Spirit. You are still you! Yes, you still sin and it's not just your body.

I did not say the body goes to the grave because it sins. God has ordained that our bodies are resurrected at the end, at the final judgment time. He does not tell us why.

Our bodies are not more sinful than our minds/spirits are. You seem to think sin resides in the body.

My mind/spirit/soul is not righteous - it is covered by Christ's righteousness, which is another thing.

I would like to ask you why does the body go to the grave because of sin and the soul has sin also, but goes to heaven. If God cleansed up the soul at the "born again", then why not the body also. You say the soul sins also, then how does it receive heaven, and the body the grave?

When God sees Christ's righteous, why does that not cover the body also. Do you have an answer please.

I mean you give the soul "special" rewards of heaven, but the body the grave, why?

BBob,

 

[steaver]

I believe when we accept Christ our inward man is "born again" and the outward man receives the promise of God that he also, will be delivered from the bondage of corruption unto the glorious liberties of the Children of God, in the resurrection.

Hope that explains my belief.

Sounds like dualism to me. Which is heresy.

 

[steaver]

I mean you give the soul "special" rewards of heaven, but the body the grave, why?

BBob,

Tell it to the Master! He made the rules.

 

[Brother Bob]

Tell it to the Master! He made the rules.

Sounds like dualism to me.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

Sounds like dualism to me. Which is heresy.

I guess me and Apostle Paul are dualist, with a ? mark.

Romans 7:
22: For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24: O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25: I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[DHK]

I would like to ask you why does the body go to the grave because of sin and the soul has sin also, but goes to heaven. If God cleansed up the soul at the "born again", then why not the body also. You say the soul sins also, then how does it receive heaven, and the body the grave?

When God sees Christ's righteous, why does that not cover the body also. Do you have an answer please.

I mean you give the soul "special" rewards of heaven, but the body the grave, why?

BBob,

Where does the Bible say that the "soul" has sin; whereas the human "spirit" does not? Please use the exact words soul and spirit in the Scripture you quote avoiding the use of vague terminology such as "the inward man" which could refer to either or both.

 

[Joe]

Thanks Joe;
But I believe in two men, the inward man, who at accepting Christ is made alive in Him and raised to walk a newness of life. His sins have been cleansed up and when the natural death comes, that inward part (soul) will go to heaven, because it has no sin. The outward man on the other hand is not cleansed up, but is still in a dead state and will not be make alive in Christ until the resurrection. Then both soul and body will be perfect and go to heaven to live forever.

Thanks for the explanation. I think I have a good feel for what you mean.

So is the "outward man" otherwise known as the flesh to you?
I am sure the flesh is included, at the very least. Maybe you mean our outside man us which is controlled by the flesh? Your next part seems to touch on it, so it's not that important.

I believe when we accept Christ our inward man is "born again" and the outward man receives the promise of God that he also, will be delivered from the bondage of corruption unto the glorious liberties of the Children of God, in the resurrection.

This verse seems to back up what you are saying.

1Thes 5:23:
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I believe the inward man who delights after the law of God is the "perfect" man that has already cleansed up. I believe that is how you can explain many scripture, especially 1John, which say he that is born of God cannot sin.

Yes, it does appear to explain it well. Never thought of it that way. Except... when you divide what the inward man is comprised of, I am not sure it would hold up. I'll have to study more The inward man seems to include many identities wrapped into one.

Matt 22: 37 you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment.

The inward man appears to be 4 identities in one- soul, spirit, mind and some form of "body" which is not fleshly. So the inward man that you say has already been cleansed up (or sanctified if you agree with that) includes those 4 identities. Extreme dualism possibly, but if it works.
My reply may be too confusing, sorry.
There appears many topics here that would be good to start new threads with.

 

[Brother Bob]

Thanks for the explanation. I think I have a good feel for what you mean.

So is the "outward man" otherwise known as the flesh to you?
I am sure the flesh is included, at the very least. Maybe you mean our outside man us which is controlled by the flesh? Your next part seems to touch on it, so it's not that important.


This verse seems to back up what you are saying.

1Thes 5:23:
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.



Yes, it does appear to explain it well. Never thought of it that way. Except... when you divide what the inward man is comprised of, I am not sure it would hold up. I'll have to study more The inward man seems to include many identities wrapped into one.

Matt 22: 37 you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment.

The inward man appears to be 4 identities in one- soul, spirit, mind and some form of "body" which is not fleshly. So the inward man that you say has already been cleansed up (or sanctified if you agree with that) includes those 4 identities. Extreme dualism possibly, but if it works.
My reply may be too confusing, sorry.
There appears many topics here that would be good to start new threads with.

Well, scripture does say, who that hath an ear, let him hear and I do not believe its talking about our natural ears. Also says to annoint thy eyes with eyesalve that thou mayest see, and I do not believe it means our natural eyes. Also say, we are given a heart of flesh and the stony heart is removed, and I do not believe it means our natural heart, for we can have a heart transplant.

Seems to me everyone believes in a soul and a body. If thats called dualism, what can I say Joe.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

Where does the Bible say that the "soul" has sin; whereas the human "spirit" does not? Please use the exact words soul and spirit in the Scripture you quote avoiding the use of vague terminology such as "the inward man" which could refer to either or both.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Rom 7:9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Mat 8:22But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Dead souls in sin, burying the dead bodies.

His body did not die.

Mic 6:7Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, [or] with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn [for] my transgression, the fruit of my body [for] the sin of my soul?


BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

Where does the Bible say that the "soul" has sin; whereas the human "spirit" does not? Please use the exact words soul and spirit in the Scripture you quote avoiding the use of vague terminology such as "the inward man" which could refer to either or both.

1: The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2: He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
3: He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4: Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5: Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
6: Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

BBob, raying: