Can a Dead Body Sin?

[Amy.G]

HP: In light of the following verse, is it any wonder why I am a bit leery of being converted to Steaver’s brand of theology, which in essence is trying to make thieves, extortioners, or those that covet out of fellow believers?

1Co 6:9 ¶ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

HP, "the unrighteous" always refers to the UNSAVED. Show me one reference where saints are called "the unrighteous".

Verse 9 is a reference back to verse 1, where Paul says they are taking their disputes before the unrighteous (unsaved) instead of before the saints.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: Both parties have sinned.

HP: "To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” Where is your evidence that the individual knew that to do so would be injurious to his brother? Could he not have been ignorant concerning the matter, and it only becomes sin once he knew to good but subsequently refusing to do it?

Sin, according to Scripture as well as reason, requires knowledge of what is expected from one. When you pin sin on the one being addressed in this passage, are you not making a determination of what the individual knew to be right when Scripture does not tell us, neither does it in any way associate sin with the possible actions of the one being addressed? I certainly think so.

The position you seem to be taking, along with the position of DHK and Steaver, makes sin a mandatory pronouncement upon the word ‘defraud.’ There is not a shred of evidence to support such a preposterous conclusion. To defraud is not necessarily to sin. It may or may not be, depending on many things and circumstances.

Regardless, if the one doing the defrauding is a thief, such a one cannot in reality be a believer in the end, for Scripture, in the very same chapter in question, clearly states that no one that is such will inherit eternal life.

 

[steaver]

The position you seem to be taking, along with the position of DHK and Steaver, makes sin a mandatory pronouncement upon the word ‘defraud.’ There is not a shred of evidence to support such a preposterous conclusion. To defraud is not necessarily to sin. It may or may not be, depending on many things and circumstances.

defraud....
to deprive of a right, money, or property by fraud:

This is an "unrighteous" act. EVERYTIME!

Do you have another definition?

 

[Amy.G]

HP: "To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” Where is your evidence that the individual knew that to do so would be injurious to his brother? Could he not have been ignorant concerning the matter, and it only becomes sin once he knew to good but subsequently refusing to do it?

Sin, according to Scripture as well as reason, requires knowledge of what is expected from one. When you pin sin on the one being addressed in this passage, are you not making a determination of what the individual knew to be right when Scripture does not tell us, neither does it in any way associate sin with the possible actions of the one being addressed? I certainly think so.

The position you seem to be taking, along with the position of DHK and Steaver, makes sin a mandatory pronouncement upon the word ‘defraud.’ There is not a shred of evidence to support such a preposterous conclusion. To defraud is not necessarily to sin. It may or may not be, depending on many things and circumstances.

Regardless, if the one doing the defrauding is a thief, such a one cannot in reality be a believer in the end, for Scripture, in the very same chapter in question, clearly states that no one that is such will inherit eternal life.

I already explained to you that Paul is referring to the unsaved when he speaks of the unrighteous. Saints are never called unrighteous.

As far as the rest of your post, you are imagining things to support your theory. Paul is clearly saying they have sinned because they have defrauded one another.

Here is the definition of "defraud" according to the King James Dictionary.
King James Dictionary

DEFRAUD, v.t. L. To cheat.

1. To deprive of right, either by obtaining something by deception or artifice, or by taking something wrongfully without the knowledge or consent of the owner; to cheat; to cozen; followed by of before the thing taken; as, to defraud; a man of his right.
We have corrupted no man, we have defrauded no man. 2 Cor. 7.

The agent who embezzles public property, defrauds the state.

The man who by deception obtains a price for a commodity above its value, defrauds the purchaser.

2. To withhold wrongfully from another what is due to him. Defraud not the hireling of his wages.
3. To prevent one wrongfully from obtaining what he may justly claim.
A man of fortune who permits his son to consume the season of education in hunting, shooting, or in frequenting horse-races, assemblies, &c., defrauds the community of a benefactor, and bequeaths them a nuissance.

4. To defeat or frustrate wrongfully.
By the duties deserted-by the claims defrauded.


I don't see anything in this definition that implies innocence. Defrauding is sin. Paul makes it clear there were saints who were defrauding other saints. Therefore, they were sinning.

 

[steaver]

Do you believe homosexuallity is only sin depending on the circumstances as well? Many believe this. How about adultery? Depends on the circumstances?

Since I did not understand the full definition of adultery twenty years ago and I did not think that I was committing adultery then by your standards I was not guilty of adultery, correct?

When I look back I see me guilty of adultery. But you say I am not if I didn't know any better, right?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: defraud....
to deprive of a right, money, or property by fraud:

This is an "unrighteous" act. EVERYTIME!

Do you have another definition?

HP:Certainly I do. If you would simply read the last few posts I am certain you will find another definition there. As I recall it can be explained as to 'deny' or to 'deprive' and that does not necessitate sin by any means.

The reality of your position is that according to this very passage, those who you claim are sinning believers CANNOT inherit eternal life. 1Co 6:9 ¶ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[steaver]

I don't see anything in this definition that implies innocence. Defrauding is sin. Paul makes it clear there were saints who were defrauding other saints. Therefore, they were sinning.

But they cannot accept the definition sister! It destroys their position.

 

[Amy.G]

HP:Certainly I do. If you would simply read the last few posts I am certain you will find another definition there. As I recall it can be explained in one word, to 'deny' and that does not necessitate sin by any means.

The reality of your position is that according to this very passage, those who you claim are sinning believers CANNOT inherit eternal life. 1Co 6:9 ¶ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Where did you get this definition? Could you post it?

 

[Amy.G]

But they cannot accept the definition sister! It destroys their position.

Grrrrrrrrr...............:laugh:


I'm getting frustrated Steaver!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: But they cannot accept the definition sister! It destroys their position.

HP: Speaking of destroying ones position, explain to the list how a thief is to be in the end considered as a believer when the passage in question states emphatically that such a one shall NOT inherit eternal life?

 

[steaver]

The reality of your position is that according to this very passage, those who you claim are sinning believers CANNOT inherit eternal life. 1Co 6:9 ¶ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

HP: Speaking of destroying ones position, explain to the list how a thief is to be in the end considered as a believer when the passage in question states emphatically that such a one shall NOT inherit eternal life?

This is not about "sinning believers". You are off topic. This discussion for the past several pages is about whether or not a believer can break the law.

So redirect your thoughts and get on board.

Do you side with BBob that a saved person cannot commit sins such as adultery, stealing, lying? or not?

ANswer up brother!

 

[steaver]

HP:Certainly I do. If you would simply read the last few posts I am certain you will find another definition there. As I recall it can be explained as to 'deny' or to 'deprive' and that does not necessitate sin by any means.

Replacing the word "defraud" with another word is not giving "defraud" another definition.

When we are commanded NOT to do something whether you say "defraud" or "deprive" then if we DO "deprive" something in the way we were told NOT to we have sinned!

You are saying that even though the word of God states do not deprive one another from intamacy except for righteous reasons, one can deprive the other from intamacy for any reason, righteous or not and not be sinning.

 

[Amy.G]

HP: Speaking of destroying ones position, explain to the list how a thief is to be in the end considered as a believer when the passage in question states emphatically that such a one shall NOT inherit eternal life?

Corinth was a terribly corrupt city. These saints that Paul is teaching are having trouble learning how a Christian is to behave. They have lived their entire lives in a pagan world, following pagan behaviors. They are saved, righteous in Christ, but have much work to do in the sanctification process. No one who is heavily involved in sin suddenly becomes perfect the moment they are saved. This involves a lifetime of submission to Christ and denying the flesh. But Christians sometimes fail, and fall into sin. They do not lose their salvation. God will discipline them until they "yield the peaceful fruit of righteousness" (NASB).

The unrighteous that Paul refers to in verse 9 are unbelievers. They have rejected the gospel and do not have the righteousness of Christ. They are still in a lifestyle of sin (which Paul describes). The saints were living the same sinful lifestyles until they received the gospel and were saved. But Paul is having to teach them how they are to behave as saints. They still obviously have problems with certain sins and Paul is rebuking them for it.

I am soooooo thankful for our merciful Lord and Savior, who does not condemn me when I sin, but chastises me and brings me back into His favor.

 

[steaver]

Corinth was a terribly corrupt city. These saints that Paul is teaching are having trouble learning how a Christian is to behave. They have lived their entire lives in a pagan world, following pagan behaviors. They are saved, righteous in Christ, but have much work to do in the sanctification process. No one who is heavily involved in sin suddenly becomes perfect the moment they are saved. This involves a lifetime of submission to Christ and denying the flesh. But Christians sometimes fail, and fall into sin. They do not lose their salvation. God will discipline them until they "yield the peaceful fruit of righteousness" (NASB).

The unrighteous that Paul refers to in verse 9 are unbelievers. They have rejected the gospel and do not have the righteousness of Christ. They are still in a lifestyle of sin (which Paul describes). The saints were living the same sinful lifestyles until they received the gospel and were saved. But Paul is having to teach them how they are to behave as saints. They still obviously have problems with certain sins and Paul is rebuking them for it.

I am soooooo thankful for our merciful Lord and Savior, who does not condemn me when I sin, but chastises me and brings me back into His favor.

Amy, your post have been dead on! But understand they are glossing right over them. Keep this joy in your heart, there are many reading in that are learning soo much. What can one do when the scripture states "ye defraud" and they say "no ye do not defraud"? They are opposing God's word. Pray for them to see....raying: raying: raying:

 

[Amy.G]

Thank you Steaver. Your posts are excellent. :thumbsup:

God Bless. I have to go do some Bible study and get ready for :sleeping_2: .

More tomorrow.

 

[DHK]

I am soooooo thankful for our merciful Lord and Savior, who does not condemn me when I sin, but chastises me and brings me back into His favor.

But if you agree with Bro.Bob, when you sin Christ does condemn you--right to Hell, and you weren't even saved in the first place. Christians don't sin.

 

[DHK]

They are opposing God's word. Pray for them to see....raying: raying: raying:

Yes, perhaps on another thread. This one needs to be closed.