Can a man keep the law?

[freeatlast]

Just read the first 3 chapters in Romans, where Apostle paul pretty much shows us that :

man is a sinner by birth/choice
man will fall away from God, not towards Him due to being in sin
God is the One that saves man

Yes man does deny God but that does not mean it is without volition or because he has to. man has a volitional choice, but he always chooses to deny God (sin). Thus the sinfulness of sin the magnificence of grace.
While being lost it matters not how much we do good as even our righteous deeds are like a filthy rag.
Once saved that no longer applies as our righteousness is bound up in Christ Jesus. We are not only positionally changed we are spiritually and inwardly changed into new creations who is now able to keep the commands. Even the Lord Jesus made that clear in John 14. if you love me you will keep my commandments. if it is impossible to keep the commandments then it is impossible to love the lord and if anyone loves not the Lord then according to scripture they are accursed which would mean that no one is saved.

 

[Winman]

Just read the first 3 chapters in Romans, where Apostle paul pretty much shows us that :

man is a sinner by birth/choice
man will fall away from God, not towards Him due to being in sin
God is the One that saves man

Nowhere do these chapters say God cursed man so that he cannot believe. In fact, if you read chapter 2, Paul speaks of men who seek life and do good.

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:

Who is Paul talking about here? Is he speaking of imaginary people who do not exist? How is it possible they patiently continue in well doing if that is impossible? How can they seek immortality and eternal life if it is impossible?

Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Calvinists never mention these verses in chapter 2. Reminds me of the Charismatics that are HUGE on Acts, but ignore the scriptures that say we should speak in tongues two or three at most, and that in order and only if an interpreter is present, and that women should not teach men.

Calvinism like the Charismatics cherry picks scripture they like, and ignores scripture they don't like.

No way Paul was saying men are unable to do good or believe.

 

[jbh28]

Yes man does deny God but that does not mean it is without volition or because he has to. man has a volitional choice, but he always chooses to deny God (sin). Thus the sinfulness of sin the magnificence of grace.
While being lost it matters not how much we do good as even our righteous deeds are like a filthy rag.
Once saved that no longer applies as our righteousness is bound up in Christ Jesus. We are not only positionally changed we are spiritually and inwardly changed into new creations who is now able to keep the commands. Even the Lord Jesus made that clear in John 14. if you love me you will keep my commandments. if it is impossible to keep the commandments then it is impossible to love the lord and if anyone loves not the Lord then according to scripture they are accursed which would mean that no one is saved.

:thumbsup:

 

[glfredrick]

Is this the verse you present to show God cursed man so they cannot believe? It does not even mention faith. It is simply saying man cannot find out or know all the works God has done from the beginning to the end. And this is true, I don't know how God created the world, and I cannot really comprehend eternity.

But this verse says absolutely nothing about men being unable to believe. You don't have to understand all God's works to believe, else no man could believe and be saved.

Try again.

Winman, I am fully convinced that no verse of Scripture will change your mind and that because, well saying what I think violates board rules, so I am silenced.

In any case, there are more verses (And please note, the all caps is in the translation I am using today, not any effort to single out words. Those are OT quotes cited in the NT).

Eph 2:12 (NASB)
12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Romans 11:7-8 (NASB)
7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written,
"GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."

Romans 11:34-35 (NASB)
34 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35 Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?

Romans 12:2 (NASB)
2 And do not be conformed to this world , but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Gal 3:10-14 (NASB)
10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM." 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, " THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." 12 However , the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE "— 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Gal 3:21-23 (NASB)
21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.

Gal 4:7-9 (NASB)
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?


Gal 5:1 (NASB)
1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

Gal 5:16-24 (NASB)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please . 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality , impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions , 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.


Col 1:13-14 (NASB)
13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Col 1:21-23 (NASB)
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister .

Col 2:8-14 (NASB)
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete , and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Col 2:20-23 (NASB)
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self -made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

Col 3:3-7 (NASB)
3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
5 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality , impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. 6 For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, 7 and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them.

 

[Winman]

Those verses are saying we all sin. I agree 100%, but not one of those verses says man was disabled in the fall and lost the ability to believe.

Show a verse that directly addresses ability and says man cannot believe. You are reading into scripture what is not being said.

Mt 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Is Jesus speaking of believers here? No, a believer already has righteousness imputed to him and no longer needs to seek for it. Is Jesus so silly to command them to do what he knows they cannot do? Absurd.

Lk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

First, Jesus shows the evil know HOW (ability) to give good gifts. These cannot be saved people, else he would not have called them evil. Then he says all they need to do to receive the Spirit is ask God. ANYONE can do that. If they were already regenerate, they would not need to ask for the Spirit.

I have addressed ABILITY, you have not. Show scripture that addresses ability and says the unregenerate are UNABLE to believe.

Don't show scripture that says man sins, everyone agrees with that.

 

[glfredrick]

Those verses are saying we all sin. I agree 100%, but not one of those verses says man was disabled in the fall and lost the ability to believe.

If we sinners from birth, then how is it that we arrived in that position?

Or, do you ascribe to the Pelagian view that we are not indeed sinners from birth? If so, then no amount of Bible verse will satisfy you, for I have provided more than enough to demonstrate that we under slavery to sin, aka, cursed.

 

[Skandelon]

If we sinners from birth, then how is it that we arrived in that position?

Do you mean how can an enemy of God be reconciled to God? How about through the powerful gospel appeal of God inviting us to be reconciled to him?

 

[Winman]

If we sinners from birth, then how is it that we arrived in that position?

Or, do you ascribe to the Pelagian view that we are not indeed sinners from birth? If so, then no amount of Bible verse will satisfy you, for I have provided more than enough to demonstrate that we under slavery to sin, aka, cursed.

You and the other Calvinists always deflect, no one is denying men are sinners.

The question is ABILITY. Show any scripture that says man is not ABLE to believe.

I am able to drink poison, but I am not willing to do so, I am willing to fly like a bird, but am not able to do so.

The fact that some men are not willing to believe in Christ and come to him does not prove they are unable. No where does scripture say men are unable to believe. You can't show it, because it isn't there.

You believe something that is not in the Bible. Look for yourself.

 

[freeatlast]

You and the other Calvinists always deflect, no one is denying men are sinners.

The question is ABILITY. Show any scripture that says man is not ABLE to believe.

I am able to drink poison, but I am not willing to do so, I am willing to fly like a bird, but am not able to do so.

The fact that some men are not willing to believe in Christ and come to him does not prove they are unable. No where does scripture say men are unable to believe. You can't show it, because it isn't there.

You believe something that is not in the Bible. Look for yourself.

Winman
I certainly believe you are correct on this. In fact I have known people who will tell you without a doubt that they believe everything about Jesus, they accept all the major doctrines and even understand the plan of salvation but they still do not want Him in their life. They make the volitional choice to reject His offer. In the same way we can choose or reject to obey God's commands. No believer has to sin.

 

[David Lamb]

[snip]
Calvinism like the Charismatics cherry picks scripture they like, and ignores scripture they don't like.

As I see it, Winman, on a discussion board like this one, the accusation of cherry-picking could be applied to anyone, no matter what their theological stance. It is not a matter of picking the scriptures they like, and ignoring those they don't like. Whether we discuss calvinism/non-calvinism, dispensationalism/non-dispensationalism, a-, post- and pre-milennialism, or any other set of differing beliefs, we will obviously quote verses that we believe lend support to our beliefs. In the discussions, we say what we believe on the matter under debate, then (hopefully) back it up with bible verses which we believe address the subject. You do it, I do it - the only people who don't are those who (for whatever reason) don't quote scripture at all.

Let me give a (fictitious) example of what I mean: Suppose someone on the "Other Denominations" forum starts a thread advocating infant baptism. A baptist replies, and quotes Acts 8.36-37 in support of the baptistic view of baptism being for believers:

36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" 37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
​

That doesn't mean that the baptist is ignoring other scriptures. As a baptist yourself, you will know that baptists believe what they do about baptism because they believe that view to be consistent with the teaching of the whole bible.

No way Paul was saying men are unable to do good or believe.

Yet he certainly did say such things elsewhere. Let me ask you a question: Does it please God or displease God when a sinner believes on the Lord Jesus Christ? I hope you would agree that it pleases Him. Yet Paul writes in Romans 8.8 that those who are in the flesh cannot please God. The context there indicates that by "in the flesh" he means unsaved sinners.

 

[Skandelon]

Yet he certainly did say such things elsewhere. Let me ask you a question: Does it please God or displease God when a sinner believes on the Lord Jesus Christ? I hope you would agree that it pleases Him. Yet Paul writes in Romans 8.8 that those who are in the flesh cannot please God. The context there indicates that by "in the flesh" he means unsaved sinners.

Yet, that verse never addresses the means by which one may move from being 'in the flesh' to being 'in the spirit," does it? Both Arminians and Calvinists affirm the need for a work of the HS, yet the difference is that we disagree as to the irresistibility of that working.

I believe the gospel (something not even mentioned in this passage) is a work of the Holy Spirit and God's appointed means to bring the dead to life, set the captive free, and reconciled His enemies. Does the gospel do so irresistibly? No. But it is a certainly sufficient mean to accomplish its intended purpose, which is to make that appeal to be reconciled to God.

No, on your own, you cannot please God. No, on your own, you would never seek God. No, on your own, you will not believe and obey. But WE ARE NOT ON OUR OWN!

God came to earth. God appointed divinely inspired messengers. God inspired the writing of the New Testament. God established his Church, the Bride of Christ, whose job it is to say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life."

Is that not enough? Must He also supernaturally through some secret inward working (that is never expounded upon in scripture) irresistibly change the heart and desires of man to accept this appeal?

If so, why all the other means? What purpose does envy serve in Romans 11:14? What purpose does persuasion serve in 2 Cor 5? What purpose did the miracles and other outward signs serve? What purpose did Thomas need to see the hands for himself, was the irresistible work not enough for him? Why does scripture teach that wealth can hinder a man from salvation?

 

[Havensdad]

Non-Cals often argue that God would not require of man what he is not able to do, such as believe. Non-Cals argue it would be unjust for God to punish a man for unbelief if it were impossible for him to do so.

Calvinists often respond that God gave man the law and it is impossible for man to keep the law, therefore it is not unjust for God to demand from a man what he is not able to do.

The question is, can man keep the law? Is he able? The scriptures say YES!

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

The scriptures say that Zacharias and his wife walked in ALL the commandments and ordinances of the Lord BLAMELESS.

I am not saying that Zacharias was not a sinner. In fact, we see in this story that Zacharias did not at first believe God's promise and was struck dumb, unable to speak because he did not believe.

Nevertheless, concerning the commandments and ordinances of God, the scriptures themselves say Zacharias AND his wife kept ALL of them BLAMELESS.

So, is it really true that it is impossible for man to obey God's laws?

No, they were not blameless, nor did they keep the commandments. They did the same thing as Abraham...

Rom 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."

Zacharias and his wife were wretched sinners just like the rest of us, who broke God's commandments, I am sure, countless times. But they believed God, and therefore it was "counted" as if they were blameless. Unless Paul is lying.

 

[Winman]

In answer to David Lamb, post #90, you are correct, Rom 8:8 does say that they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The answer here is that the moment a person believes they are no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit.

Jn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Jesus said the man who hears and believes shall have life. He did not say he that lives shall hear and believe.

You will ALWAYS see this order in scripture, a man first hears the word of God, then believes, and then receives the Spirit and life. It is immediate.

So, the moment a man believes he is no longer in the flesh, but the Spirit.

Believeing is receiving the Spirit, therefore the moment you believe you pass from death to life.

Notice Jesus said THE DEAD shall hear his voice and they THAT HEAR SHALL LIVE.

So hearing and believeing is the cause, having life the result or effect.

You will always see this order in scripture.

 

[Havensdad]

In answer to David Lamb, post #90, you are correct, Rom 8:8 does say that they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The answer here is that the moment a person believes they are no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit.

Jn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Jesus said the man who hears and believes shall have life. He did not say he that lives shall hear and believe.

You will ALWAYS see this order in scripture, a man first hears the word of God, then believes, and then receives the Spirit and life. It is immediate.

So, the moment a man believes he is no longer in the flesh, but the Spirit.

Believeing is receiving the Spirit, therefore the moment you believe you pass from death to life.

Notice Jesus said THE DEAD shall hear his voice and they THAT HEAR SHALL LIVE.

So hearing and believeing is the cause, having life the result or effect.

You will always see this order in scripture.

Sorry, but this does not apply. It is CLEARLY talking about the second coming of Christ, and literal physical life. NOT receiving faith.


Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.


I guess by your logic, the people in the tombs come to life before they hear His voice, too. Lazarus just "popped" back to life on his own, and then heard Jesus say "come forth"? Sorry, but this is clearly disproved from these verses. The Hebrew mind did not think in such a lineal fashion. Unless the object is clearly to show an order of events (such as it is in Romans 8 and 9), Hebrews (and the Greek language, for that matter) tend to speak the most prominent thing first; in this case, that the people in their graves will hear the voice of Christ. The ENTIRE POINT of these verses is that Jesus is speaking life back to (Physically) dead men.

 

[glfredrick]

I've had some time to think through this thread, and I need to do a bit of backtracking regarding the conversation Winman and I have been having.

Actually, Winman is correct in one aspect of his argument (but incorrect in the balance or the conclusions he draws from that one aspect). God has not cursed our moral ability. That does not mean that our moral ability is not cursed, only that God did not curse it.

In fact, as God created the world -- a "very good" world, where no sin existed -- save that the potential for sin was present all along, built into the fabric of the universe, hence God's command for obedience.

Had Adam followed God's command and not rebelled against God, it is entirely possible that Adam could have continued in his sinless state. Up until the point when Adam made the choice -- and Adam (and his wife) were the only ones who had a choice -- but alas, Adam chose rebellion and sin entered the world.

The Bible explains that fully in two different passages, one OT and one NT, and both of these have been seen by the church as orthodox belief since day one.

Psalm 51 and Romans 5 express this doctrine clearly:

Psalms 51:5 (ESV)
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 5:12-19 (ESV)
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.

I did a check of the great figures of historical theology, and TO A MAN (with several notable rare exceptions), all agree that ALL MANKIND is cursed with a sin nature that INCLUDES the moral nature of man, and that was passed down through the one man, Adam, who first sinned against God.

So, who were those "notable rare exceptions"?

The first was Pelagius. He took exception to the concept that man's moral nature was cursed by the fact that first man sinned and passed down that sin into the entire human race. Pelagius held that man was born sinless and that at the point when man first committed his (or her) first act of sin he (or she) became a "sinner." This was widely condemned, and rightly so, by the entire church of that age, with many writings in opposition to the concept that we are sinless until we act, for that concept is truly not found in the Scriptures.

Following Pelagius, the next person (well, group) that actively took up the cause for a potential sinless life was the Roman Catholic Church. Though for years they oozed in and out of Pelagian doctrines, largely depending on whether or not the pope was sound in his own grasp of scripturally-based doctrine, the RCC eventually adopted as their singular stance, a semi-Pelagian view of sin, or the lack thereof.

Following Pelagius and the RCC, the next individual who took up this faulty doctrine was Jacob Arminius, who was roundly censored by the Synod of Dort, where the five articles of Calvinism first saw the pen -- long after John Calvin, but that is a side note. John Calvin, as well as the other major Reformers all saw that man was born dead in his sin and trespasses, including his moral ability. All wrote widely on the subject and it simply was not up for debate amongst the Reformers. They held the anti-Pelagian stance.

Pelagius' doctrines would have died, except that they were picked up again by John Wesley and it was Wesley's modifications and extensive speaking, traveling world-wide, and teaching on this subject that finally gave it some traction so as to bring it into the mainstream of the church.

Today, we have "Baptists" who hold to a very "Pelagian," "Roman Catholic," and "Wesleyan-Methodist" view of Soteriology, those "Baptists" wrongly thinking that they are correct, but their doctrine does not satisfy the demands of Scripture and in fact, they are as incorrect as the original -- Pelagius himself -- in regards to anthropologically-centered doctrines that state that man has the capacity to be sinless and also that man has an intact morality.

There is only one cure for rebellion of this nature. To repent and turn from a theological position that places man squarely on the throne that is God's alone; and to give God the glory He deserves as the author and finisher of our salvation, for He alone has the power to make us alive again, based on His sovereign grace, applied as He wills to whom He wills, when He wills it, for WE are incapable at any time, place, or situation.

 

[Winman]

Man did not receive a sin nature in the fall, he received the knowledge of good and evil.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

Before Adam and Eve sinned they were not self-conscious. They were like little children who run around naked and are not aware or ashamed. They also had no real concept of right and wrong.

This knowledge became part of man and we are all born with it, although it takes time to mature. Anybody who has children has observed they also run around naked unashamed for several years, and they do not understand right from wrong at first. The scriptures confirm this.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

I would not say we inherit a sin nature, I would say it more accurate a "temptation nature". We inherit a knowledge that makes it extremely difficult to resist sin. But the scriptures show we retain the ability to choose between good and evil.

That said, all men do sin, except for Jesus who never sinned.

No one has to sin, we choose to sin.

 

[HankD]

Man did not receive a sin nature in the fall, he received the knowledge of good and evil.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

Before Adam and Eve sinned they were not self-conscious. They were like little children who run around naked and are not aware or ashamed. They also had no real concept of right and wrong.

This knowledge became part of man and we are all born with it, although it takes time to mature. Anybody who has children has observed they also run around naked unashamed for several years, and they do not understand right from wrong at first. The scriptures confirm this.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

I would not say we inherit a sin nature, I would say it more accurate a "temptation nature". We inherit a knowledge that makes it extremely difficult to resist sin. But the scriptures show we retain the ability to choose between good and evil.

That said, all men do sin, except for Jesus who never sinned.

No one has to sin, we choose to sin.

Why then do some babies and little children die winman? No sin, no death.

Death entered this universe through Adam. Even matter itself is "dying", it's called entropy and if allowed by God to continue the universe will disorganise and deteriorate until it becomes an infinite chasm of darkness and nothingness.

Of course we know that God will bring about a new heaven and new earth with no death, no sin, only righteousness and those who have Bible faith have already passed from this state of death to life eternal.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
​

I would say that it is not just extremely difficult but impossible for us not to sin.

Remember the analogy of the apple tree?
Until a tree bears fruit you can't always tell what kind of tree it is.

It only takes one apple to prove the tree.

But an apple tree is an apple tree even before it bears its first apple because it is the product of its progenitor and receives it's nature from thus.

​

HankD

 

[glfredrick]

Man did not receive a sin nature in the fall, he received the knowledge of good and evil.

<snip>

I would not say we inherit a sin nature, I would say it more accurate a "temptation nature". We inherit a knowledge that makes it extremely difficult to resist sin. But the scriptures show we retain the ability to choose between good and evil.

That said, all men do sin, except for Jesus who never sinned.

No one has to sin, we choose to sin.

And, in so saying, you blatantly disregard the Scriptures as well as the orthodox position of the church for 2000 years.

When Adam chose to sin (and he was the only human who could chose, save Christ, who was the only other "free man" with choice) he became a "slave to sin" as did his posterity -- the entire human race. Slaves are not free. They do not have a choice. They are under bondage to their master, and when one is a "slave to sin" -- set free only by death -- then they are indeed other than what you describe and not at all "free to chose."

I cannot explain it better than the Apostle Paul, so here is his, Holy Spirit inspired rationale:

Romans 6:1-23 (ESV)
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Winman]

Glf, I disagree, the scripture I showed you shows that little children do not know good and evil at first, but once they do they can make a choice. Read Isa 7:16 and see for yourself.

 

[glfredrick]

Glf, I disagree, the scripture I showed you shows that little children do not know good and evil at first, but once they do they can make a choice. Read Isa 7:16 and see for yourself.

You asked for Scripture to back up my point. I gave it to you. I even examined my own premise and reconsidered an error that I was making in saying that God cursed our moral capacity -- He did not, we did -- but still you argue with the sure Word of God and yes, with me.

And, true to my insight above, you have ARGUED with every verse of Scripture that I have presented.

I would consider this all a waste of time, except for one simple fact. I got to spend more time in the Word considering the things of God. For that, I have to thank you, for you have fulfilled one of my reasons for coming here -- to find the most heterodox arguments possible and to hone my own skills in "rightly dividing the Word of Truth."