Can a Person Be Gay and Still Be a Christian?

[Iconoclast]

Zaac

To whom does it matter? Is Christ going to have a fit because someone He has forgiven chooses to call themselves a Gay Christian?

Jesus will send then into hell without getting worked up.No question.He did not have anytrouble with Sodom being destroyed

 

[Iconoclast]

If you are living for Christ you will not self-identify with a perversion that Scripture condemns.

:thumbsup::wavey::wavey::thumbs: Clearly not!

 

[Zaac]

If you are living for Christ you will not self-identify with a perversion that Scripture condemns.

Scripture condemns the sexual acts. It doesn't condemn the orientation.

 

[Zaac]

Zaac


Jesus will send then into hell without getting worked up.No question.He did not have anytrouble with Sodom being destroyed

Man where have you been hiding? :laugh: Good to hear from ya. Maybe we've just been in different threads.

But back to your comment. Did God destroy Sodom because of ACTS or because people were saying they were gay?

There's just nothing anymore sinful about calling oneself a gay Christian as there would be calling oneself a straight Christian.

The church may not like people using the two terms together. But there simply isn't anything sinful or damning to hell about it.

 

[annsni]

That link doesn't work correctly, Sister Ann...

Thanks for pointing that out!! I had just hand typed that but his actual address is moorematt.org

Definitely check out some of what he has to say.

 

[Zaac]

“They aren’t choosing to be attracted to the same sex, but, like the rest of us, they have a sinful heart that is filled with distorted, evil desires. They are choosing to act out on those sinful desires rather than trusting in Jesus – just like we used to before we knew Jesus. What gay men and women need is not to make a choice to become straight, but to make a choice to come to Christ for forgiveness of sins and a new heart that loves God and hates sin.”


Matt Moore

http://www.moorematt.org/christians-think-twice-before-you-say-being-gay-is-a-choice/

:applause:

 

[Scott J]

I've said in the past that sexual orientations are perhaps a little bit more complex than we like to believe some times.

The Bible does not agree with you. The Bible's teaching on sexuality as a whole is pretty direct and clear.

We don't say to the heterosexual who identifies as a heterosexual that he's not a heterosexual just because he hasn't ENGAGED in "heterosexual sex acts".

So why would we say that to the homosexual?

Because one according to God is inherently sinful while the other is only sinful when wrongly practiced. The Bible nowhere proscribes a righteous way of practicing homosexuality.

I know adults and kids who haven't engaged in any acts but they consider themselves gay because they are attracted to people of the same sex.

And Jesus said that the man who lusted after a woman in his heart was already an adulterer. If someone has entertained homosexual thoughts then they have sinned.

How about lust? Would we consider someone gay who has only lusted for the same sex but not engaged in a sexual act gay?

Jesus seems to have answered that question pretty clearly.

These are actual questions that people have asked me in the past.

I would still venture that it's a good idea to not try to deal with just this one area and to address people who struggle with this from the perspective of ALL of their sin, and not just one.

Sort of. But I doubt they call the lies they tell their "lifestyle".... There are people obviously who do lie, steal, cheat, murder, hate, etc as their "lifestyle"... but is there anyone trying to excuse those "lifestyles"?

 

[Zaac]

The Bible does not agree with you. The Bible's teaching on sexuality as a whole is pretty direct and clear.

Okay. Enlighten us then and BIBLICALLY explain how one becomes straight or gay.

Because one according to God is inherently sinful while the other is only sinful when wrongly practiced. The Bible nowhere proscribes a righteous way of practicing homosexuality.

BIBLICALLY incorrect. Scripture speaks to the practice of certain sexual ACTS as wrong. It says nothing about what people refer to as sexual orientation. So in that regard, Scripture DOES NOT say that any sexual orientation is inherently sinful.

Heterosexuality and homosexuality are orientations. They aren't ACTS to be practiced.

And Jesus said that the man who lusted after a woman in his heart was already an adulterer. If someone has entertained homosexual thoughts then they have sinned.

And I haven't said otherwise. Does entertaining those thoughts make them gay?

Jesus seems to have answered that question pretty clearly.

Again, please enlighten me. If Jesus spoke to sexual orientation, please point me to it.

Sort of. But I doubt they call the lies they tell their "lifestyle".... There are people obviously who do lie, steal, cheat, murder, hate, etc as their "lifestyle"... but is there anyone trying to excuse those "lifestyles"?

Apples and oranges. You can't compare lying and cheating , etc. to a sexual lifestyle. You'd have to compare a sexual lifestyle to another sexual lifestyle.

 

[Scott J]

Scripture condemns the sexual acts. It doesn't condemn the orientation.

That isn't correct either. "Orientation" is part of the sin nature we all inherited. Some are oriented to sexual perversion whatever the type. Some are orienting to substances abuse, lying, stealing, cheating, violence, etc. NONE of those things can be excused or justified simply because someone feels a "natural" compulsion to do them.

There is a very good reason why literally billions of $ have been spent attempting to prove that homosexuality is either biological or environmental... only to fail at producing a "scientific" answer. This is because the philosophy of modern science (materialism) precludes the correct answer.

Homosexuality isn't a biological or environmental product. It is a spiritual issue because we are all born sinners.

If you wish to argue from that perspective that some are more tempted by one sin or another then you will be on firm ground. The Bible supports that. But that STILL makes it part of the "old man" who dies at salvation. Biblical salvation and sanctification are the remedy. So the idea of a "gay" Christian makes no more sense than the idea of a liar Christian, adulterer Christian, murderer Christian, etc. It is a contradiction to self-identify with a sin as a modifier to your claim to be Christian.

 

[Croyant]

It should be added that homosexuality is an especially grave sin because the sinner sins against his own body, in which the Holy Spirit dwells.

It is impossible to be both a practicing homosexual and a Christian, however it is possible to be a Christian with same-sex attractions if the Christian resists them and repents if he acts out on them.

All the evidence I have seen makes me believe that it is based on nurture, but even if it came mostly from nature it wouldn't change anything. It's like someone who is genetically predisposed to be angry or alcoholic. Just because someone is "born this way" doesn't mean it is justified to act in a certain way.

Also if it was 100% something people were born with, you wouldn't see so many testimonies from ex-gays who have truly changed through the power of Jesus Christ. I've met some ex-gays myself, some of whom now have a wife and children.

Sure a few of them fell back into their sin, but who says that Satan is to ever leave us alone, or that God promises us we won't ever be tempted again?

In the end the onus is on the one who is tempted to choose God over his own worldly desires.

 

[Scott J]

Okay. Enlighten us then and BIBLICALLY explain how one becomes straight or gay.

The Bible does not say that being straight is sinful. In fact, it was part of God's design from the start. From a biblical perspective, you can't even classify them together.

You can classify perversions of "straight" together with homosexuality under the label of "fornication"/pornea (Sp?).

One becomes a homosexual the way one becomes any other type of sinner. Their sin nature is tempted and they give in.

Like any other behavior, it starts with a person's thought life which CAN be influenced by environment and experience. One's thought life cultivates their attitude. One's attitude will ALWAYS dictate their behavior.

BIBLICALLY incorrect. Scripture speaks to the practice of certain sexual ACTS as wrong. It says nothing about what people refer to as sexual orientation. So in that regard, Scripture DOES NOT say that any sexual orientation is inherently sinful.

The term "sexual orientation" doesn't just appear out of nothing. There is a philosophy behind it... and a notion that it is inherent and that some people are predestined to it.

The whole notion that it is anything BUT sin derived from our sin nature is alien to the Bible. You can choose to believe modern "science" governed by the limits of materialism or you can choose to believe God. In this case, there is no overlap between the two.

Heterosexuality and homosexuality are orientations. They aren't ACTS to be practiced.

So if someone does not entertain homosexual thoughts... then his orientation is what?

And I haven't said otherwise. Does entertaining those thoughts make them gay?

If someone entertains the thought of having sex with someone then according to Jesus they are guilty. Your argument isn't with me.

Again, please enlighten me. If Jesus spoke to sexual orientation, please point me to it.

You don't know the scriptures? In Matthew 19, Jesus made a VERY exclusive comment about the proper context for sex and limited it to a man and his wife. In Matthew 5 beginning at vs 27 Jesus tells us that a) lusting in the heart is sin and that b) sex of any kind (including homosexuality) outside of the marriage is sinful.

Sexual sin is a broad thing. If you complained that we tend to ignore heterosexual sin or somehow grade it above homosexuality then I'd agree with you. But whether you are talking about some gross straight sin or homosexuality... it is sin.

Apples and oranges. You can't compare lying and cheating , etc. to a sexual lifestyle. You'd have to compare a sexual lifestyle to another sexual lifestyle.

No. You may not like it but sin is to be grouped with sin. You could compare it to a "swinging" lifestyle if you are so determined... or beastiality, paedophilia, or any number of other perversions of God's design that you wish. Or you can very legitimately compare it to non-sexual sins.

Choosing to call a sin your "lifestyle" is mutually exclusive from submission to God.

 

[Scott J]

It should be added that homosexuality is an especially grave sin because the sinner sins against his own body, in which the Holy Spirit dwells.

It is impossible to be both a practicing homosexual and a Christian, however it is possible to be a Christian with same-sex attractions if the Christian resists them and repents if he acts out on them.

All the evidence I have seen makes me believe that it is based on nurture, but even if it came mostly from nature it wouldn't change anything. It's like someone who is genetically predisposed to be angry or alcoholic. Just because someone is "born this way" doesn't mean it is justified to act in a certain way.

Also if it was 100% something people were born with, you wouldn't see so many testimonies from ex-gays who have truly changed through the power of Jesus Christ. I've met some ex-gays myself, some of whom now have a wife and children.

Sure a few of them fell back into their sin, but who says that Satan is to ever leave us alone, or that God promises us we won't ever be tempted again?

In the end the onus is on the one who is tempted to choose God over his own worldly desires.

Since the ascent of philosophical naturalism/materialism in western culture about 150 years ago... a fallacy of limited alternatives has been so effectively promoted that even well meaning Christians can be subdued by it.

I am sure you are a great person with a heart for the Lord... but please consider the third possibility beyond "nuture" and nature...

Homosexuality like every other sin is spiritual first. It is the product of man's deadness and separation from God to the flesh and sin. By surrendering on this issue, we commit ourselves to a war that cannot be won.

In this respect, it is much like the creation-evolution debate. Once we concede to the materialists' demand that ONLY natural causes can be considered... we lose.

 

[Croyant]

http://www.gcmwatch.com/10615/80-exhomosexual-video-testimonies

There are more than 100 video testimonials of former homosexuals on this page alone.

I suppose every last one of them is lying?

 

[Croyant]

Since the ascent of philosophical naturalism/materialism in western culture about 150 years ago... a fallacy of limited alternatives has been so effectively promoted that even well meaning Christians can be subdued by it.

I am sure you are a great person with a heart for the Lord... but please consider the third possibility beyond "nuture" and nature...

Homosexuality like every other sin is spiritual first. It is the product of man's deadness and separation from God to the flesh and sin. By surrendering on this issue, we commit ourselves to a war that cannot be won.

In this respect, it is much like the creation-evolution debate. Once we concede to the materialists' demand that ONLY natural causes can be considered... we lose.

Very true, thanks for reminding me. These Renaissance influences are everywhere.

It would be indeed quite foolish to presume that the spiritual doesn't play an essential part.

 

[Scott J]

http://www.gcmwatch.com/10615/80-exhomosexual-video-testimonies

There are more than 100 video testimonials of former homosexuals on this page alone.

I suppose every last one of them is lying?

Just to play the devil's advocate here :smilewinkgrin:... if we submit to the idea that homosexuality is either nurture or nature then the answer to your testimonies is that they weren't really homosexual to start with... that they were actually acting against their nature.

Really only the spiritual explanation can explain the change AND that they were in fact previously very much in accord with their "nature"... their "sin nature".

 

[Zaac]

That isn't correct either. "Orientation" is part of the sin nature we all inherited. Some are oriented to sexual perversion whatever the type. Some are orienting to substances abuse, lying, stealing, cheating, violence, etc. NONE of those things can be excused or justified simply because someone feels a "natural" compulsion to do them.

We're talking sexual orientation. Either gay or straight. Where does Scripture say that either of these is sinful?

There is a very good reason why literally billions of $ have been spent attempting to prove that homosexuality is either biological or environmental... only to fail at producing a "scientific" answer. This is because the philosophy of modern science (materialism) precludes the correct answer.

But I'm not asking for a scientific answer. I'm asking for what God says. Where does HE say that a sexual orientation is sinful?

Homosexuality isn't a biological or environmental product. It is a spiritual issue because we are all born sinners.

How is an orientation a spiritual issue? Is heterosexuality a spiritual issue?

If you wish to argue from that perspective that some are more tempted by one sin or another then you will be on firm ground. The Bible supports that. But that STILL makes it part of the "old man" who dies at salvation. Biblical salvation and sanctification are the remedy. So the idea of a "gay" Christian makes no more sense than the idea of a liar Christian, adulterer Christian, murderer Christian, etc. It is a contradiction to self-identify with a sin as a modifier to your claim to be Christian.

Properly paralleling things, you would have a gay Christian, a lying Christian, an adultering Christian, a murdering Christian, etc.

They all exist.

How is it a contradiction to self identify with a sin while claiming to be a Christian if you are a sinner?

Sharing one's testimony generally demands self identifying with some sin.

 

[Zaac]

The Bible does not say that being straight is sinful.

The Bible doesn't say that any sexual orientation is sinful. Christians have a bad habit of placing demands on someone else's shoulders that they aren't willing to bear.

In fact, it was part of God's design from the start. From a biblical perspective, you can't even classify them together.

Sure you can. The same way you put good and evil together.

You can classify perversions of "straight" together with homosexuality under the label of "fornication"/pornea (Sp?).

That's not a parallel. You can classify sexual orientation against sexual orientation and ACTS of orientations against other ACTS of orientation.

One becomes a homosexual the way one becomes any other type of sinner. Their sin nature is tempted and they give in.

So is that how one becomes a heterosexual? The sin nature is tempted and they give in?

Like any other behavior,

Homosexuality and heterosexuality AREN'T behaviors.

it starts with a person's thought life which CAN be influenced by environment and experience. One's thought life cultivates their attitude. One's attitude will ALWAYS dictate their behavior.

Behavior is an ACT. That's not an orientation.

The term "sexual orientation" doesn't just appear out of nothing. There is a philosophy behind it... and a notion that it is inherent and that some people are predestined to it.

Orientation is a directional term in relation to something else. It doesn't mean someone is predestined for anything. It speaks RELATIONALLY to what they are in the NOW.

The whole notion that it is anything BUT sin derived from our sin nature is alien to the Bible.

I think Ann is right in pointing people to the Matt Moore page. You're using words in a way that simply don't make sense.

Sin demands an ACT. Heterosexuality and homosexuality are not acts.

You can choose to believe modern "science" governed by the limits of materialism or you can choose to believe God. In this case, there is no overlap between the two.

Who is talking science?

So if someone does not entertain homosexual thoughts... then his orientation is what?

I'd say ask the person. They know better than anyone else what they are identifying as. That's why I keep saying there's a little bit more to sexual orientation than what most folks are just equating with male/male, female/female or male/female sex.

If someone entertains the thought of having sex with someone then according to Jesus they are guilty. Your argument isn't with me.

I'm not arguing with you and I'm certainly not arguing with Jesus. ANd I didn't ask if it made them guilty. I asked if it made them gay?

You don't know the scriptures? In Matthew 19, Jesus made a VERY exclusive comment about the proper context for sex and limited it to a man and his wife. In Matthew 5 beginning at vs 27 Jesus tells us that a) lusting in the heart is sin and that b) sex of any kind (including homosexuality) outside of the marriage is sinful.

You're AGAIN speaking to specific sexual ACTS. Sexual acts are not a sexual orientation.

Sexual sin is a broad thing. If you complained that we tend to ignore heterosexual sin or somehow grade it above homosexuality then I'd agree with you. But whether you are talking about some gross straight sin or homosexuality... it is sin.

Words, words, words. Your statement again lacks the parallelism of good communication.

You pair heterosexual sin with homosexuality instead of properly pairing heterosexual sin with homosexual sin as Scripture does.

Scripture never speaks to sexual orientations as sinful. It speaks to ACTS as sinful.

No. You may not like it but sin is to be grouped with sin.

That's the problem though. You're not grouping sin with sin. You're grouping sin with a sexual orientation.

To JUSTLY do so, you'd have to be privy to all the layers and nuances that go into making someone gay or straight. And if you knew that, I'm sure there are a lot of parents and individuals who would be paying for this information so that they could make sure their child didn't turn gay.

You could compare it to a "swinging" lifestyle if you are so determined... or beastiality, paedophilia, or any number of other perversions of God's design that you wish. Or you can very legitimately compare it to non-sexual sins.

Why would I compare it to any of those things? None of those are sexual orientations.

You're just creating some extra-Biblical demands here.

Choosing to call a sin your "lifestyle" is mutually exclusive from submission to God.

Choosing to make into sin something God has not called a sin is also mutually exclusive from submission to God.

 

[Revmitchell]

I suppose you can be gay oriented just as you can be drug oriented, glutton oriented, adultery oriented, etc. We are born sinful and we all have our weaknesses. However, the use of the word "orientation" is propaganda used to justify sin. Christians have no business using it in that manner. It is evil

 

[Jerome]

Mohler embraces orientation concept, says it's 'identity' that's the big no no:

http://www.albertmohler.com/2014/11/13/sexual-orientation-and-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/

I had previously denied the existence of sexual orientation. I, along with many other evangelicals, did so because we did not want to accept the sexual identity structure that so often goes with sexual orientation. I still reject that notion of sexual identity. But I repented of denying the existence of sexual orientation because denying it was deeply confusing to people struggling with same-sex attraction.

 

[Scott J]

We're talking sexual orientation. Either gay or straight. Where does Scripture say that either of these is sinful?

No. YOU are using a concept derived from a philosophy that denies the reality of spiritual or non-material causation.... for ANYTHING.

Your question is akin to asking why Richard Dawkins doesn't present the gospel at his lectures.

The idea that someone is "oriented" or iow's predestined to homosexual desires and behaviors is NOT consistent with what the scriptures teach. That is why the Bible doesn't say anything about "orientation" being sinful... because the very notion of "orientation" is unbiblical.

But I'm not asking for a scientific answer. I'm asking for what God says. Where does HE say that a sexual orientation is sinful?

The Bible says that homosexuality is sinful. It says that being effeminate for males is sinful. Jesus said that lust and thoughts themselves are sinful.... and see above for an explanation on orientation.

If you disagree then I would welcome your reasoned, scriptural proof for the idea of "orientation".

How is an orientation a spiritual issue? Is heterosexuality a spiritual issue?

Are you being purposefully obtuse? BILLIONS of $ have been spent in attempts to prove scientifically that homosexuality is either biological or environmental. All of those studies have failed. But the secular humanist/materialist does not allow for spiritual or even "moral" causation in the absolute sense. But WE as Christians and believers in supernaturalism DO.

Why are you so resistant to going where the scripture leads on his issue? Why are you letting the philosophies of this world limit what you are willing to believe about what scripture teaches by introducing the notion of "sexual orientation" as necessary to explain the issue?

Properly paralleling things, you would have a gay Christian, a lying Christian, an adultering Christian, a murdering Christian, etc.

They all exist.

No. You don't. Do Christians commit all of those sins? Yes. But if that is their identity... then you can drop the Christian part.

How is it a contradiction to self identify with a sin while claiming to be a Christian if you are a sinner?

I am honestly trying to be charitable with you but how can you ask this if you have studied the scriptures concerning those who continue in sin after professing Christ? To attach "gay" to Christian brings reproach to the name of Christ.... unless your intent is to suggest that it isn't sinful. Then the problems are much bigger than what we've discussed so far.

Sharing one's testimony generally demands self identifying with some sin.

Hopefully you are just missing the point. Paul wrote of a number of sins that the people of one of the churches were once known for... but then said 'that's not you anymore'. Let him who committed these various sins no longer commit them.

You can say "I was once a habitual liar but now I'm a follower of Christ." You can say "I was once a homosexual but I left that to follow Jesus." You can say "I was once a perverse womanizer but God redeemed me." But to continue to identify with sin as your nature or lifestyle is contrary to the whole notion of regeneration and new birth. We are raised again to newness of life, right? We are supposed to leave that "old man" behind.