This thread reported as homosexuality discussions are against the rules if I remember correctly.
Last edited by a moderator:
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
This thread reported
I'm unsure what you are trying to say with that last sentence. I'm not placing demands on anyone. I am expressing what I believe can very plainly be derived from reading the NT in context and submitting to it.The Bible doesn't say that any sexual orientation is sinful. Christians have a bad habit of placing demands on someone else's shoulders that they aren't willing to bear.
You continue to attempt to foist an unbiblical concept onto the scriptures as a form of pseudo-hermeneutics.That's not a parallel. You can classify sexual orientation against sexual orientation and ACTS of orientations against other ACTS of orientation.
God created them male and female... God commanded them to reproduce and fill the earth. Jesus said that a man should leave his family and become one flesh with his wife. Please show a single scripture that suggests anything other than heterosexuality being God's natural, created design or conversely one that shows that the scriptures treat homosexuality as anything but unnatural and sinful.So is that how one becomes a heterosexual? The sin nature is tempted and they give in?
You are evading.Homosexuality and heterosexuality AREN'T behaviors.
Orientation is an attitude. Attitudes determine behavior... ALL THE TIME.Behavior is an ACT. That's not an orientation.
If someone IS a sin... then they are NOT a Christian. That would seem crystal clear.Orientation is a directional term in relation to something else. It doesn't mean someone is predestined for anything. It speaks RELATIONALLY to what they are in the NOW.
If you understand the words as they are used... then it will make sense to you.I think Ann is right in pointing people to the Matt Moore page. You're using words in a way that simply don't make sense.
Really? Attitudes cannot be sinful without actions? Thoughts cannot be sinful without actions? What we embrace and love cannot be sinful without outward actions?Sin demands an ACT. Heterosexuality and homosexuality are not acts.
You should be since the term you keep foisting on scripture is from secular science.Who is talking science?
If they ARE (present state of being) gay even if it is just their intent, desire, and attitude then they are guilty of sin according to Jesus even if they do not act it out. Again, the scriptures teach that we become a new creation when saved.... the old man with his lusts dies. To still identify with that lust... is inconsistent with being born again.I'm not arguing with you and I'm certainly not arguing with Jesus. ANd I didn't ask if it made them guilty. I asked if it made them gay?
PROVE that scripture accommodates the notion of sexual orientation AT ALL then we can go forward. We're getting nowhere so long as you do not provide that basis for your argument.Scripture never speaks to sexual orientations as sinful. It speaks to ACTS as sinful.
And you are attempting to say someone can be "gay" by nature and a Christian by nature once you boil away the fat.That's the problem though. You're not grouping sin with sin. You're grouping sin with a sexual orientation.
No. I simply have to trust the Bible.To JUSTLY do so, you'd have to be privy to all the layers and nuances that go into making someone gay or straight. And if you knew that, I'm sure there are a lot of parents and individuals who would be paying for this information so that they could make sure their child didn't turn gay.
So now you would change direction and attempt to make sexual sins different from other sins?Why would I compare it to any of those things? None of those are sexual orientations.
Nope. And you've said absolutely nothing that proves that and to this point have failed to even allude to a scriptural basis for whatever it is you are trying to prove.You're just creating some extra-Biblical demands here.
Choosing to make into sin something God has not called a sin is also mutually exclusive from submission to God.
This thread reported as homosexuality discussions are against the rules if I remember correctly.
Scripture condemns the sexual acts. It doesn't condemn the orientation.
I'm unsure what you are trying to say with that last sentence. I'm not placing demands on anyone.
I am expressing what I believe can very plainly be derived from reading the NT in context and submitting to it.
The Bible does not speak to sexual orientation because it isn't a biblical concept. It is a concept CONTRARY to the Bible in that it ONLY allows for materialistic causation.
You continue to attempt to foist an unbiblical concept onto the scriptures as a form of pseudo-hermeneutics.
.To say that someone is "oriented" in the way it is universally meant in discussions of this issue means that it is an innate, immutable characteristic. MOST who use that term consider acceptance of that term assent to the notion of a biological cause for homosexuality
If you want to say it is the "spiritual orientation" of some lost people... then I think I could mostly go with you.
God created them male and female... God commanded them to reproduce and fill the earth. Jesus said that a man should leave his family and become one flesh with his wife.
Please show a single scripture that suggests anything other than heterosexuality being God's natural, created design or conversely one that shows that the scriptures treat homosexuality as anything but unnatural and sinful.
You are evading.
Orientation is an attitude. Attitudes determine behavior... ALL THE TIME.
If someone IS a sin... then they are NOT a Christian. That would seem crystal clear.
But to your larger point here... I don't think you quite understand what is meant by the term "sexual orientation". If you do... then you are just spinning now.
If you understand the words as they are used... then it will make sense to you.
Really? Attitudes cannot be sinful without actions? Thoughts cannot be sinful without actions? What we embrace and love cannot be sinful without outward actions?
You should be since the term you keep foisting on scripture is from secular science.
If they ARE (present state of being) gay even if it is just their intent, desire, and attitude then they are guilty of sin according to Jesus even if they do not act it out.
Again, the scriptures teach that we become a new creation when saved.... the old man with his lusts dies. To still identify with that lust... is inconsistent with being born again.
PROVE that scripture accommodates the notion of sexual orientation AT ALL then we can go forward. We're getting nowhere so long as you do not provide that basis for your argument.
.And you are attempting to say someone can be "gay" by nature and a Christian by nature once you boil away the fat
No. I simply have to trust the Bible.
So now you would change direction and attempt to make sexual sins different from other sins?
People do have weaknesses spiritually that make them susceptible to one sin more than another. That isn't an "orientation" in the way the term is used in discussions of homosexuality. But it IS biblical.
You are attempting a false dichotomy but I am unsure what end you are trying to reach. Are you trying to say it is OK to continue to "be" something that God condemns?
Nope. And you've said absolutely nothing that proves that and to this point have failed to even allude to a scriptural basis for whatever it is you are trying to prove.
I am unsure if you are truly this determined to rationalize something you haven't actually spelled out yet or are just engaging in sophism. The scriptures call sin... sin. That includes homosexual sin.
To attach a sin to the name of Christ in labeling one's self brings reproach on the name of Christ.
I strongly suspect you are attempting that because you believe with the world that homosexuality is innate and immutable.
But the Bible calls sinners to repent... to be changed into a new creature... not to dress up the old one.
So it would be okay to call yourself a pedophile Christian or a murdering Christian?
Something tells me you are trying to justify your own actions.
Nice try. But pedophilia isn't a sexual orientation. It's fornicative and a whole lot of other things.
Zaac said:A murdering Christian? Same thing. Murder is a sin that Scripture has spoken to. Scripture doesn't speak to what we are calling sexual orientation.
Zaac said:Thus there's no right comparison to be made between gay Christian and pedophile Christian or murdering Christian.
Zaac said:Funny. People say the same thing about folks who try so hard to make into a sin something God hasn't said is a sin.