Can a person be saved who doesn't believe in eternal security?

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Bob,

If the doctrine of OSAS is wrong, then our Lord and Savior was lying when He said, 'He that believeth hath everlasting life'.

I am sorry, but I have to disagree with you on this one. Everlasting life means it does not end.

You are taking a pick-and-choose approach to the Gospel and eisegeting way too much of man-made-tradition into what you have extracted there.

Jesus WAS telling the truth when He defined the process of "forgiveness revoked" in Matt 18 for those who HAVE been forgiven!!

Jesus WAS telling the truth when He stated that BELIEVERs are the only ones with everlasting life!

But when a believer becomes an unbeliever (through turning away from God as we see in Matt 18) then Jesus' words about forgiveness REVOKED are every bit as true as you imagine the tradition of OSAS to be -- in fact they are more true - because OSAS is just man-made error.

You either have to reject all of scripture on the teaching of "perserverance" or you have to reject all teaching on the topic of "falling from Grace" specifically identified in Galations 5.

Either way you are taking a "pick and choose" approach to the Bible.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Many are taught that people like us teach that one can get saved and then future behavior does not matter. Sin that grace may abound. Since Jesus takes away all our sins, we have our ticket for Heaven--not matter what.

That IS the 4 point Calvinist position!

The fact that ALL who hold to OSAS don't take the 4 Point Calvinist view of "saved no matter how much I fail to persevere" in it's complete rejection of the doctrine of perseverance (hence they are Four pointers not Five pointers) does not delete the 4 point Calvnists (and the Arminians who join them on that point) from the face of the earth.

They still exist.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
I agree with J. Jump on this one. I think you can hold to the doctrinal error of OSAS and still be saved.

Just because an OSAS person denies the teaching of Christ in Matt 18 on "forgiveness revoked" does not mean that they lose their salvation just for clinging to the tradition of OSAS over scripture.

I have to go with the broader view on this one.

Looks like I am agreeing with SFC on this idea that the OSAS doctrine does not determine IF you are saved.

More and more of these keep coming up SFC.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[atestring]

If once saved always saved is a true doctrine then a peerson that is not sure about this doctrine is as eternally secure as the person that does. The person that believes in Once saved always saved ois no more eternally secure than the person that is not sure about this.
We are saved by what Jesus Did for us not from our understanding of certain doctrines.

Can you imagine this scenaro:
2 Christians Saved by the grace through faith in jesus, one is a Baptist the other is a Nazarene.
In a moment of weakness both get drunk and are killed in a car accident.( remember Baptist do not drink in front of another Baptist) ( a nazarene will not drink in front of another nazarene)
Will both go to hell?
Will Both Go to heaven?
Will One go to heaven and the other one go to Hell?
If so which one and Why?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Originally posted by atestring:
If once saved always saved is a true doctrine then a peerson that is not sure about this doctrine is as eternally secure as the person that does. The person that believes in Once saved always saved ois no more eternally secure than the person that is not sure about this.
We are saved by what Jesus Did for us not from our understanding of certain doctrines.

That was my belief on this subject, but a young man at church pointed out that those who believe that salvation can be lost are teaching a works based salvation, and as such, did they believe on the Lord Jesus or on themselves?

 

[atestring]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atestring:
If once saved always saved is a true doctrine then a peerson that is not sure about this doctrine is as eternally secure as the person that does. The person that believes in Once saved always saved ois no more eternally secure than the person that is not sure about this.
We are saved by what Jesus Did for us not from our understanding of certain doctrines.

That was my belief on this subject, but a young man at church pointed out that those who believe that salvation can be lost are teaching a works based salvation, and as such, did they believe on the Lord Jesus or on themselves? </font>[/QUOTE]NOt necessarily true. There are many Christians that do not believe in Once Saved always saved that are not into a works doctrine.
These Poeople do believe on the Lord Jesus as their source of salvation.
JOhn Wesley and George Whitfield could not agree and solve this issue. Is it possible that Christians everywhere happen to disagree on this issue. That does not mean that those who do not adhere to this doctrine were never saved.
Are you convinced that John Wesley was never really saved?

 

[Hope of Glory]

I didn't say that I agreed with the young man, but it is an interesting point to ponder.

However, in part of that conversation, I did point out to him, that if someone believed in OSAS doctrine, and then changed to believing that works could cause one to lose salvation, then they would be saved but hold to a faulty doctrine.

Simply believing that salvation can be lost does not make it true, but that is a salvation by works.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:

But when a believer becomes an unbeliever

This is an errant theology. Nowhere is all of Scripture does the Bible teach even the remotest possibility that a believer can become an unbeliever. That is just an impossibility.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by atestring:
If once saved always saved is a true doctrine then a peerson that is not sure about this doctrine is as eternally secure as the person that does. The person that believes in Once saved always saved ois no more eternally secure than the person that is not sure about this.
We are saved by what Jesus Did for us not from our understanding of certain doctrines.

Can you imagine this scenaro:
2 Christians Saved by the grace through faith in jesus, one is a Baptist the other is a Nazarene.
In a moment of weakness both get drunk and are killed in a car accident.( remember Baptist do not drink in front of another Baptist) ( a nazarene will not drink in front of another nazarene)
Will both go to hell?
Will Both Go to heaven?
Will One go to heaven and the other one go to Hell?
If so which one and Why?

In spite of the Nazarene's errant belief (that he will lose his salvation), he still trusted Christ as his Saviour, and will still go to heaven. Both men will. Sin will not keep a person out of Heaven. The rejection of Christ will.
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BobRyan:

But when a believer becomes an unbeliever

This is an errant theology. Nowhere is all of Scripture does the Bible teach even the remotest possibility that a believer can become an unbeliever. That is just an impossibility.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]So once we "have faith" and are grafted "INTO the vine of Christ" it would sure be silly to "warn us about losing that belief - losing that faith and being cast out of the vine of Christ" eh??

A text comes to mind...

Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Now since you claim that Paul is talking about (even boldly warning about) a danger that is NO DANGER AT ALL for the believer because it is IMPOSSIBLE (like warning against FALLING UP into space!) -- what do you do with the text!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Tazman]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BobRyan:

But when a believer becomes an unbeliever

This is an errant theology. Nowhere is all of Scripture does the Bible teach even the remotest possibility that a believer can become an unbeliever. That is just an impossibility.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]What is your definition of an unbeliever?

 

[billwald]

There is no objective test for salvation. "Inviting Jesus," doing good works, having visions and good feelings . . . are all subjective.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by billwald:
There is no objective test for salvation. "Inviting Jesus," doing good works, having visions and good feelings . . . are all subjective.

This is not true. Read and study the First Epistle of John. He gives many objective tests to see if one is a Christian or not. That is one of the themes of the book.
"He that hath the Son hath life; he that hath Son hath not life."
Salvation is as simple as that. Either you have trusted Christ (as defined in the Bible) as your Saviour or not. Either you have received him or rejected him. There is no sitting on the fence.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
--Believing in Christ results in knowing, not guessing or hoping, but in knowing. That in itself is OSAS. John says that he has written this epistle that you may know that Christ is the Son of God, that you might believe in his name, and that by believing, you might know that you have eternal life.
There is nothing subjective here. There are no feelings necessarily involved. There may or may not be. It is not important if there are not. It is very objective. Either you have Christ as your Saviour or you don't. Either you have received him or you haven't. On that basis either you know you have eternal life or you don't. The rest is just an understanding of Scripture as it relates to the doctrine of salvation.

 

[atestring]

I think that wheither a person can loose their salvation is a wrong question?

There are no right answers to wrong questions.

An example is this question:
12 + 12 =
a)14
b)56
c)13
d)23
Which is the right answer?
There are no right answers to wrong questions.
With that in mind why would a person want to loose their salvation.

I ceretainly wouldn't
My conclusion is that Can a person loose their salvation is a wrong question and ther is no right answer.

 

[Dustin]

I guess someone can be saved if they don't believe in eternal security. It would kill a lot of joy I would guess, but I hope and pray they don't think that it was anything THEY did to keep it. Such belief is heretical and cultish and JUST PLAIN WRONG.

 

[Linda64]

We are saved by grace (Eph.2:8-9) and kept by grace (1 Peter 1:5). We have ETERNAL life when we believe (John 3:16). ETERNAL life is not TEMPORARY! When a person trusts Jesus Christ as his/her Savior, he/she has ETERNAL life--however, if that person believes or is taught that they can lose that salvation, there is NO ASSURANCE--and that would be living one's entire life in fear after trusting Christ. (2 Tim. 1:7)

When there is NO ASSURANCE after trusting Christ, there is NO VICTORY in the Christian's life.

Read 1 John--and study it!!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by atestring:
Can a person loose their salvation is a wrong question and ther is no right answer.

"He that hath the Son hath life; he that hath not the son hath not life."
The answer can't get much clearer than that.
DHK

 

[mman]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BobRyan:

But when a believer becomes an unbeliever

This is an errant theology. Nowhere is all of Scripture does the Bible teach even the remotest possibility that a believer can become an unbeliever. That is just an impossibility.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Have you not read, "Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today," that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin." - Heb 3:12-13

and later,

"And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief." (vs18-19)

He is warning "brothers" to take care or beware. Why? So they don't fall away from the living God. How would they do that? With an evil unbelieving heart.

Then he goes on and compares diobedience with unbelief. Did they believe in God? How could they not? They had seen the plagues, crossed through the Red Sea, being led by the cloud, and were eye witnesses to God's mighty works. Of course they believed in God, but they could not enter because of unbelief/disobedience.

Read what John 3:36 says, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. - ESV

There are two different Greek words used, and the KJV translators did not do us any favors when they concealed this distinction by translating these two different words as "believeth".

John did not change his story from vs 16.

Heb 3 is in complete and perfect harmony with James 5:19-20, "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."

This is obviously talking about spiritual death.

What did Paul say, "Now I would remind you, brothers,of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain." - I Cor 15:1-2

The Gospel will only save you "if you hold fast" otherwise, you have "believed in vain".

Peter says that it would be better to have never "escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" than to know it and turn back.- II Pet 2:20-21

Do all these clear passages have to be "explained away", or can they be accepted for what they say? I accept them.

Again, what could be easier or more broad than teaching anyone who believes is saved and can never be lost? That is contrary to the scriptures presented here and many others I have not touched on.

What nobody has done has explained how this belief could be made any more broad in light of Matt 7:21-23, where you have sincere believers in Jesus who will be lost. They were on the broad way that leads to destruction that he was just talking about.

 

[atestring]

Will anyone say (without reservation) that John Wesley was not saved?
He did notbelieve in once saved always saved.
He and George Whitfield went seperate ways over this issue.

 

[Charles Meadows]

What nobody has done has explained how this belief could be made any more broad in light of Matt 7:21-23, where you have sincere believers in Jesus who will be lost. They were on the broad way that leads to destruction that he was just talking about.

Mt 7:21-23 does not refer to "sincere believers". The fact that Jesus rejects their "Lord Lord" profession is a pretty sure indicator that they were NOT sincere.