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Can A person Keep the law and live? Have salvation thru the law itself?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
The logical conclusion for that line of thinking would mean the answer should be yes.
If a person is born without sin, and does not sin until he acts, then he should be able to freely choose to not sin. Therefore he could keep the Law and be saved, if the Law is able to save.
Scripture is against this.
1. Man is born a sinner. (Psalms and Romans)
2. Man does not have free will. He cannot choose to not sin. He is a slave to it. (Romans)
3. The Law is unable to save, because man cannot keep it. It is an obsolete and imperfect covenant (because man cannot keep it and the sacrifices offered no eternal atonement) and God made a new and better one. (Hebrews)
If a person is born without sin, and does not sin until he acts, then he should be able to freely choose to not sin. Therefore he could keep the Law and be saved, if the Law is able to save.
Scripture is against this.
1. Man is born a sinner. (Psalms and Romans)
2. Man does not have free will. He cannot choose to not sin. He is a slave to it. (Romans)
3. The Law is unable to save, because man cannot keep it. It is an obsolete and imperfect covenant (because man cannot keep it and the sacrifices offered no eternal atonement) and God made a new and better one. (Hebrews)
Bronconagurski
New Member
The logical conclusion for that line of thinking would mean the answer should be yes.
If a person is born without sin, and does not sin until he acts, then he should be able to freely choose to not sin. Therefore he could keep the Law and be saved, if the Law is able to save.
Scripture is against this.
1. Man is born a sinner. (Psalms and Romans)
2. Man does not have free will. He cannot choose to not sin. He is a slave to it. (Romans)
3. The Law is unable to save, because man cannot keep it. It is an obsolete and imperfect covenant (because man cannot keep it and the sacrifices offered no eternal atonement) and God made a new and better one. (Hebrews)
The Jews were in that camp. They really believed they could keep the law. Now there is nothing inherently wrong with keeping the law as the the law is perfect, but saying you can keep it for salvation is where the sin lies, as you posted above.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Some hear see us as NOT being sinners by birth, but by choice, so could ANY ever get saved by keeping the Law?
Scripture refutes that proposition:
Romans 3:9-20
9. What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14. Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15. Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16. Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17. And the way of peace have they not known:
18. There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
The logical conclusion for that line of thinking would mean the answer should be yes.
If a person is born without sin, and does not sin until he acts, then he should be able to freely choose to not sin. Therefore he could keep the Law and be saved, if the Law is able to save.
Scripture is against this.
1. Man is born a sinner. (Psalms and Romans)
2. Man does not have free will. He cannot choose to not sin. He is a slave to it. (Romans)
3. The Law is unable to save, because man cannot keep it. It is an obsolete and imperfect covenant (because man cannot keep it and the sacrifices offered no eternal atonement) and God made a new and better one. (Hebrews)
I fully agree with you and the other brothers on this, but haven't some here seem to implie that it is at leasta possibility, citing how men were considereed to be rightous before God by their acts/deed, called so by God?
Some even saying that some have lived well enough to be saved by that lifestyle?
isn't this , as you stated here, where their views on Sin leads?
Some do believe that. Others say they do not. We'll have to wait and see if anyone posts and shares their thoughts. I would be interested in seeing how they walk through the process.
IF one holds to us having real freew ill, as know some do, then they would have to agree that it is a distinct possibility to be saved by the law, for they would hold Adam had same chance to do that!
Yeshua1 wrote;
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Many have tried to keep the Law but if we can be saved by it, then Christ died for nothing. No man keeps the Law because all have sinned. We are not born sinners simply because we are not being punished for Adam's sin. If we were born sinners we would have sinned before we were born and that is ridiculous.
ia
I hold to freewill and I'm speaking of those who can understand the Law and know that it's sin to break those commandments. The Bible states;IF one holds to us having real freew ill, as know some do, then they would have to agree that it is a distinct possibility to be saved by the law, for they would hold Adam had same chance to do that!
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Many have tried to keep the Law but if we can be saved by it, then Christ died for nothing. No man keeps the Law because all have sinned. We are not born sinners simply because we are not being punished for Adam's sin. If we were born sinners we would have sinned before we were born and that is ridiculous.
ia
Yeshua1 wrote;
I hold to freewill and I'm speaking of those who can understand the Law and know that it's sin to break those commandments. The Bible states;
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Many have tried to keep the Law but if we can be saved by it, then Christ died for nothing. No man keeps the Law because all have sinned. We are not born sinners simply because we are not being punished for Adam's sin. If we were born sinners we would have sinned before we were born and that is ridiculous.
ia
Do you mean that people who do not know the law are not capable of sin? I know a common Wesleyan ideal is that sin is tightly defined as being the willful breaking of a known law of God.
I reject that entirely and am only stating it here for help in understanding your specific view.
I'm a fundamental Baptist although not like you at all.Do you mean that people who do not know the law are not capable of sin? I know a common Wesleyan ideal is that sin is tightly defined as being the willful breaking of a known law of God.
I reject that entirely and am only stating it here for help in understanding your specific view.
I do not believe new born babies go to hell for sin because they haven't committed any. Jesus said;
Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
How would you go about converting a new born? Are they savable? or are you saying burn em all even if they are elect as you believe..
MB
I'm a fundamental Baptist although not like you at all.
I do not believe new born babies go to hell for sin because they haven't committed any. Jesus said;
Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
How would you go about converting a new born? Are they savable? or are you saying burn em all even if they are elect as you believe..
MB
I never said I believe newborns go to Hell. I maintain that all people are sinners by nature. I also maintain that all people are saved by grace.
Will you answer the question I asked on page 1?
Sure I will. If let's say a person is incapable of understanding the Law like a new born then I do not believe a merciful God would hold them accountable There are many who have the reasoning power of an infant and that is what I mean.I never said I believe newborns go to Hell. I maintain that all people are sinners by nature. I also maintain that all people are saved by grace.
Will you answer the question I asked on page 1?
I believe all men sin it isn't a matter of the sin but the knowing that you have. Children are responsible the moment they understand and that can be almost as soon as they understand the word no. Being born in to a sinful world does not make us sinners at birth. We inherited death from Adam and we all die but that isn't punishment it's a blessing for those who are in Christ.
MB
Sure I will. If let's say a person is incapable of understanding the Law like a new born then I do not believe a merciful God would hold them accountable There are many who have the reasoning power of an infant and that is what I mean.
OK, I don't know many people who would say God's grace does not overcome such inabilities
I believe all men sin it isn't a matter of the sin but the knowing that you have. Children are responsible the moment they understand and that can be almost as soon as they understand the word no. Being born in to a sinful world does not make us sinners at birth. We inherited death from Adam and we all die but that isn't punishment it's a blessing for those who are in Christ.
MB
OK. But God is not the author of confusion. If we cannot point to a clear beginning of sin in the lives of people then all we have is confusion on this issue. We would have a situation where I can claim I did not sin until I was 5 and someone else may claim 9, or 10. It is not just death that entered the world through Adam. That is the penalty for for sin, which truly did enter through Adam.
What does your theology do to the doctrine of Christ's incarnation? Specifically His need to be born of the Spirit and not man so He would avoid being born a sinner like every other man?
The problem we have with the theology that denies all men are born with a sin nature is the consequences it has on other doctrines in addition to the doctrine itself.
OK. But God is not the author of confusion. If we cannot point to a clear beginning of sin in the lives of people then all we have is confusion on this issue. We would have a situation where I can claim I did not sin until I was 5 and someone else may claim 9, or 10. It is not just death that entered the world through Adam. That is the penalty for for sin, which truly did enter through Adam.
You can claim but our Heavenly Father knows the truth before you open your mouth. We can see in a Child intelligence when he has become responsible for His actions. His reaction to his own conscience will let it be known. My own son when he was four years old showed me he was guilty once when he could not answer me and look me in the eye. His little face got red and he hung his head in shame.
What does your theology do to the doctrine of Christ's incarnation? Specifically His need to be born of the Spirit and not man so He would avoid being born a sinner like every other man?
The problem we have with the theology that denies all men are born with a sin nature is the consequences it has on other doctrines in addition to the doctrine itself.
I didn't say men are not born with a sin nature. They are. It's just that Adam and Eve were no different. We were created with a sin nature. Adam and Eve could not have sinned with out the Law that told them not to even touch that tree in the middle of the Garden. At the time that was the only Law there was and they understood it.
Christ is our lord and He was the only man who did not have a sin nature. He is God and being so scripture says He cannot even touch sin because of His holy nature. He did not inherit the sin nature because we inherit that from Adam and His Father is God. Not Adam.
A Propensity to sin does not mean we are born sinners. It means we have the likely hood of committing sin. The Law it self was our instructor about what sin is, and is the doing what we are told not to do. The fact we are told not to, insures we will at the very least experiment with them.
If you take any child and tell them in advance not to do a list of things or they will reap punishment for it. Most will right away test you on your word. Man does the same with our Heavenly Father. It's called sin then.
MB
convicted1
Guest
You can claim but our Heavenly Father knows the truth before you open your mouth. We can see in a Child intelligence when he has become responsible for His actions. His reaction to his own conscience will let it be known. My own son when he was four years old showed me he was guilty once when he could not answer me and look me in the eye. His little face got red and he hung his head in shame.
I didn't say men are not born with a sin nature. They are. It's just that Adam and Eve were no different. We were created with a sin nature. Adam and Eve could not have sinned with out the Law that told them not to even touch that tree in the middle of the Garden. At the time that was the only Law there was and they understood it.
Christ is our lord and He was the only man who did not have a sin nature. He is God and being so scripture says He cannot even touch sin because of His holy nature. He did not inherit the sin nature because we inherit that from Adam and His Father is God. Not Adam.
A Propensity to sin does not mean we are born sinners. It means we have the likely hood of committing sin. The Law it self was our instructor about what sin is, and is the doing what we are told not to do. The fact we are told not to, insures we will at the very least experiment with them.
If you take any child and tell them in advance not to do a list of things or they will reap punishment for it. Most will right away test you on your word. Man does the same with our Heavenly Father. It's called sin then.
MB
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
convicted1
Guest
Sure I will. If let's say a person is incapable of understanding the Law like a new born then I do not believe a merciful God would hold them accountable There are many who have the reasoning power of an infant and that is what I mean.
I believe all men sin it isn't a matter of the sin but the knowing that you have. Children are responsible the moment they understand and that can be almost as soon as they understand the word no. Being born in to a sinful world does not make us sinners at birth. We inherited death from Adam and we all die but that isn't punishment it's a blessing for those who are in Christ.
MB
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I'm a fundamental Baptist although not like you at all.
I do not believe new born babies go to hell for sin because they haven't committed any. Jesus said;
Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
How would you go about converting a new born? Are they savable? or are you saying burn em all even if they are elect as you believe..
MB
Dr. Albert Mohler has a good article addressing this issue!
In the Shadow of Death–The Little Ones Are Safe With Jesus
Wednesday, January 5, 2005
The photographs and images are now seared into our consciousness. One of the most troubling aspects of the disaster in South Asia is the death of infants and young children. Moving at the speed of a jetliner, the walls of water fell on the young and the old alike–and so many of the youngest were simply swept away.
The death of the little ones poses anguished questions that reach to the depth of Christian faith. What happened to these young victims after death? Did they go to Heaven or to Hell?
That question is too pastorally loaded to be left hanging, only to be found at the end of this article. I am convinced that those who die in infancy and early childhood–along with the severely cognitively impaired–go to Heaven when they die. That is quite a claim, but it stands within the mainstream of orthodox Christian theology throughout the centuries, and I believe it is biblically and theologically sustainable.
http://www.albertmohler.com/2005/01/05/in-the-shadow-of-death-the-little-ones-are-safe-with-jesus/
I agree with Mohler on this!
Dr. Albert Mohler has a good article addressing this issue!
I agree with Mohler on this!
Yes, for they would go to heaven NOT because God has not imputed Sin to them from the fall, but due to him making provision to atone for that thru and in the Cross of Christ!
Yes, for they would go to heaven NOT because God has not imputed Sin to them from the fall, but due to him making provision to atone for that thru and in the Cross of Christ!
Baloney, Mohler clearly contradicts himself. First he says that Adam's sin is imputed to all children so that all are sinners, then he contradicts himself and says a person is only judged for their own sin.
So, how can we frame an argument that is true to Scripture and consistent with the Gospel? Before turning to Heaven, perhaps we should take a closer look at Hell. According to the Bible, Hell is a place of punishment for sins consciously committed during our earthly lives. We are told that we will be judged according to our deeds committed “in the body.” [2 Corinthians 5:10] Adam’s sin and guilt, imputed to every single human being, explains why we are born as sinners and why we cannot not sin, but the Bible clearly teaches that every person will be judged for his or her own sins, not for Adam’s sin. The judgment of sinners that will take place at the great white throne [Revelation 20:11-12] will be “according to their deeds.” Have those who died in infancy committed such deeds? I believe not, for they have not yet developed the capacity to know good from evil. No biblical text refers to the presence of small children or infants in Hell–not one.
The part I highlighted is a direct contradiction. Augustine was consistent, he taught that all persons are imputed Adam's sin, therefore an infant must be baptized to wash away Adam's sin.
You folks are trying to have your cake and eat it too. You want to cling to Original Sin, but none of you is willing to say that a baby who dies goes to hell. Laughable.
Make up your mind, if children are born sinners, then logically they would go to hell if they died. If they are not sinners, then they would not go to hell if they died. You can't have it both ways.
And you guys ridicule me, what a joke.