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Can A person Keep the law and live? Have salvation thru the law itself?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
or maybe both sides are looking at it the wrong way
Augustine's theory of Original Sin was based almost exclusively on Romans 5:12, which he misinterpreted (in many scholar's opinions). He used a Latin text that said "in whom" which he interpreted to mean "in Adam".
Greek scholars immediately disagreed, the Eastern Orthodox Church which used only Greek scriptures disagreed with Augustine. They have NEVER agreed with Augustine's concept of Original Sin. This is an historical FACT.
The fact is, God himself says every person dies for their own sin, and that the son does not bear the sin of his father.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
This verse is straightforward and plain, and directly addresses the question of whether one person's sin is imputed to another. God said the person who sins shall die, and that the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father and vice versa.
You got a bunch of phonies here who ridicule me because I believe the scriptures, but they talk out of both sides of their mouths. Not a one of them is willing to say a baby who dies goes to hell. In their heart they know that little babies are not guilty of sin, but they cling to their tradition, even when it contradicts direct scripture.
They are a big joke.
Absolutely impossible!
Here is Scripture and a diagram to help you understand.
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Notice that one must continue in all things (from birth to death) that are written in the law (not fail even one time), or he is cursed--no salvation.
His life would look like this:
Birth____________________________________Death.
It is an unbroken line, without break, without sin. (like the life of Christ)
Suppose he could be perfect enough but only failed one time in his life.
Birth_____________________ _____________Death
That is what it would look like.
But that is not the reality. No one can live a life even like that. And even if they could they would still be cursed under the law. One sin in a person's life would condemn them.
Here is the reality of our lives:
Birth...........................................................Death
It is an unbroken chain; a line of continuous breaks. We sin every day. We were born with a nature which gives us the propensity to sin, plus we sin because we want to sin, and we enjoy doing it. That is the reality of life. We are cursed under the law.
No man continues in all things that are written in the law to do them.
You cannot justify your interpretation of this verse using the entire context. It is speaking of capital punishment. It is saying that if the father is a murderer the son shall not die for the violent crimes of his father, or vice versa. The soul (person) shall die for his own crimes. Please don't continue to take the verse out of its context. Look it up.
Exactly, if you break just one part of the law, you are guilty of all.
Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Some folks believe if you do more good than evil, God will be pleased and you will be saved, but that is not how any law works.
Suppose you were an honest citizen all your life, but one day robbed a bank. Would the judge let you go because you had done more good than bad? NO, you must pay the penalty for that one crime.
And this is exactly what the scriptures teach in Ezekiel 18.
Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
It doesn't matter if you do good every day, if you sin just one time all your righteousnesses shall not be mentioned, and you shall die in your sin.
But nowhere do the scriptures teach that little children are sinners, in fact, the scriptures show that infants have not sinned.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
Esau and Jacob were very much alive in their mother's womb when God spoke to Rebecca, but Paul says they had done no evil. They were not sinners.
Now, you show me where the scriptures ever say a baby has sinned, you can't do it.
HisWitness
New Member
the only problem with that is that you have in like manner the other man involved(Christ)--so if the first was men dieing for their own sin--then you have men being made righteous by their own righteousness--which is also not true--so you see that theory also is not right
God did conclude ALL under SIN THAT he might have MERCY upon ALL--simple as that
Other false traditions men have cause them to be blind on this and force it to say something to fit their false traditions
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the only problem with that is that you have in like manner the other man involved(Christ)--so if the first was men dieing for their own sin--then you have men being made righteous by their own righteousness--which is also not true--so you see that theory also is not right
No, babies are not righteous, and I have NEVER said that. Read again.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
The scriptures tell us that Jacob and Esau had done no evil, but they also tell us they had done no good. Babies have no righteousness or righteous works whereby they could claim they earned eternal life.
The Jews held that babies were NEUTRAL, neither good nor evil.
Now I happen to believe Jesus addresses babies and unborn children who died in Luke 15. He speaks of the 99 sheep who never went astray and needed no repentance. Notice there is no celebration for them.
Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance
Notice that Jesus told us there was no celebration for the elder son who never transgressed his father's commandment at any time.
Luk 15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
The elder son complained that he had never sinned, yet his father never celebrated for him.
Did the father call the elder son a sinner and hypocrite? No, he called him "Son" a term never applied to lost sinners, he said the elder son was "ever" with him, that is, he was never separated by sin from his father. He said all that he had was his.
He never said the elder son was "dead" or "lost" like the prodigal.
And notice Jesus himself twice said the prodigal was alive AGAIN. Men are not born dead in sin, but go out in sin like the prodigal. When they repent they are alive AGAIN.
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This is actually a red herring. The Scriptures are clear that all have a sin nature passed on by Adam. It is part of the curse.
As for the destiny of children, Abraham said: "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
Do you believe that?
Do you believe that God in his mercy will do right?
We throw ourselves on the mercy of God and believe that he will do that which is right concerning infants. Personally I believe that infants will be in heaven. I believe in a merciful God.
But I also believe that the sin nature is passed on from individual to individual through Adam. That is why it is called the "Adamic nature." That is clearly taught in Scripture.
HisWitness
New Member
men were born to face the DEATH penalty brought through adam--men who did not sin after adam still DIED,but they were not JUDGED for their SINS seeing there was NO LAW.
so all babies that were born under that and died at birth or very early age also had to suffer DEATH brought through Adam,BUT the baby or child was not judged for their sins because they had none .
And also as i repeat the DEATH was SOUL DEATH till the resurrection occured and ALL was Raised.and there was no conscience or remembrance because they were DEAD in the grave(not just body but soul also)
The DEATH penalty was completly different than being judged for your own sins
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HisWitness
New Member
adam also had that same nature before the fall by the way
he was just as much flesh and blood before the fall as after the fall with being able to be tempted and also to sin--the only difference was he lost fellowship with God and didnt have God to help him and teach him to do right and resist the temptations
Adam was created perfect. God looked upon his creation and said "It was very good." He didn't create "sin." He is not the author of sin. You are suggesting that God is the author of sin, by suggesting that Adam had "an Adam nature," or a sin nature. The very thought is absurd. He obtained that sin nature by his rebellion against God, and bringing upon himself a curse--a curse on him, Eve, the serpent, and the entire world. It would be a curse that would be passed on from generation to generation. It will only be lifted when Christ comes again and sets up his Kingdom.adam also had that same nature before the fall by the way
he was just as much flesh and blood before the fall as after the fall with being able to be tempted and also to sin--the only difference was he lost fellowship with God and didnt have God to help him and teach him to do right and resist the temptations
The curse was on the earth. Show me where God cursed man's moral nature.
Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
God cursed the ground, not Adam. God said the earth would bring forth thorns and thistles. I would say this means hardship. Men must work hard to earn a living, food did not grow easily anymore.
God did say Adam would return to the dust, which is physical death, but there is not one word that says man's moral nature was cursed or affected.
Now, that said, God said man now knew good from evil. This is what makes man responsible, God does not hold little children who do not know good from evil responsible.
Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
God did not punish the Jewish children when their parents sinned, because they did not know between good and evil in that day.
Jon 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?
God implied to Jonah that he SHOULD spare Nineveh, because there were sixscore thousand little children who could not discern between their right hand and left hand there.
So, it is absolutely clear that God does not hold children responsible for sin until they are mature enough to understand good from evil.
Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
This verse not only shows little children do not know between good and evil, it also shows that we do not HAVE to sin, and that even a child can refuse evil and choose good.
Jesus NEVER spoke evil of children, but said we must be converted and become as little children to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Anybody who says the scriptures teach little children are sinners does NOT know the scriptures. The scriptures teach the exact opposite.
HisWitness
New Member
you are saying things i never said--sure adam had NO sin when he was created (but he was flesh and blood and would eventually die bodily)but adam had the ability to be tempted and also to sin before the fall--what you are calling a sin nature really is not a sin nature but the ability to be tempted and to sin--which he could do before the fall as after
and after the fall God was not leading and directing him anymore as before--soo he walked in the lusts of the fleshof which he had before the fall men without God walks in the lusts of the flesh.
men with God has the Spirit of God to lead and direct them.
you are saying things i never said--sure adam had NO sin when he was created (but he was flesh and blood and would eventually die bodily)but adam had the ability to be tempted and also to sin before the fall--what you are calling a sin nature really is not a sin nature but the ability to be tempted and to sin--which he could do before the fall as after
men without God walks in the lusts of the flesh.
men with God has the Spirit of God to lead and direct them.
Exactly. When people say we have a sin nature, they mean we are able to be tempted. But if this were so, then Jesus would have a sin nature, because scripture clearly says he was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin.
What causes sin is free will. Men choose to sin. It is that simple. Eve was tempted by the forbidden tree, but if she had walked away she would not have been a sinner. Temptation is not sin.
Jesus was made of the seed David according to the flesh.
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
This verse refutes the superstitious nonsense where people say Jesus escaped a sin nature because he was born of a virgin. The scriptures clearly say Jesus was made of the seed of David, and David was a sinner. So, obviously the male seed is passed by the woman.
Science proves this, you absolutely inherit from your maternal grandfather.
Jesus not only had the same flesh as David, he had the same nature as the seed of Abraham, who was born after the fall and a sinner.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
So, this teaching that Jesus did not have the same flesh and nature as us is not only unscientific, it contradicts scripture.
The ability to be tempted is NOT a sin nature.
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HisWitness
New Member
I dont believe in free will in that since--i believe man is a free moral agent.
But as i stated without God man will ALWAYS choose to walk in the lusts of the flesh
Men can choose to sin or not. The scriptures do not teach that we are slaves to sin and MUST sin, they teach the opposite, that when we sin we become servants or slaves to sin.
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Is a man born with a cigarette in his mouth? No, a man chooses to smoke when he is not addicted and becomes addicted. The same is true with all sin.
The moment a man knowingly sins he comes under condemnation. He is now held fast in that condemnation. He is like a man locked up on death row awaiting execution. Only Jesus can open that door and set you free.
So, this is what is meant by being the servant of sin, you are held captive by it. You are like an ancient slave or servant that was purchased. You now belong to sin, and the wages of sin is death.
Scripture does not teach that we MUST sin as so many falsely teach.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
You can yield yourself to sin and become it's slave, or you can yield yourself to the gospel and come under grace and be set free.
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HisWitness
New Member
i agree on that post--but you also have to see that without the spirit of God man has no leadership and direction and has NOT the power to overcome the temptations of his own strengh
i agree on that post--but you also have to see that without the spirit of God man has no leadership and direction and has NOT the power to overcome the temptations of his own strengh
I agree 100% with this. :thumbsup:
You need to think through carefully what you are saying.you are saying things i never said--sure adam had NO sin when he was created (but he was flesh and blood and would eventually die bodily)but adam had the ability to be tempted and also to sin before the fall--what you are calling a sin nature really is not a sin nature but the ability to be tempted and to sin--which he could do before the fall as after
men without God walks in the lusts of the flesh.
men with God has the Spirit of God to lead and direct them.
Of course Adam had the ability to be tempted.
So did the angels in heaven. That is why Lucifer and one third of all the angels fell.
Jesus left the glories of heaven, came, was born of virgin, suffered among men, died, was buried, and rose again.
The Bible says about Christ that he was tempted in all points such as we are.
Jesus was tempted. He was tempted in the wilderness by Satan for 40 days and 40 nights while he fasted. There is no doubt that Christ was tempted. It is not a sin to be tempted. It is sin to give into that temptation. Jesus was sinless in that he never gave into any temptation that came his way. Each time Satan tempted him he answered with Scripture and in the end he rebuked Satan.
Did the Son of God have the ability to sin? He was tempted, but could not, as God, sin. There is a difference between temptation and sin. You seem to be inferring that Christ was a sinner.