Can A person Keep the law and live? Have salvation thru the law itself?

[Winman]

:thumbs: Absolutely!

Confirmed by Paul, who said:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

I agree with everyone that no man has ever, or will ever keep the law perfectly. Nevertheless, IF a men were to perfectly keep the law from the moment he is born until he dies he would not be lost and need no repentance. There is no penalty for doing good, the wages of SIN is death.

Jesus was not lying when he said "If ye would enter life, keep the commandments". Jesus was telling the lawyer the truth when he said "Thou hast answered correctly, this do, and live"

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

What is it with folks here at BB? You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with Jesus!

 

[DHK]

I agree with everyone that no man has ever, or will ever keep the law perfectly. Nevertheless, IF a men were to perfectly keep the law from the moment he is born until he dies he would not be lost and need no repentance. There is no penalty for doing good, the wages of SIN is death.

Jesus was not lying when he said "If ye would enter life, keep the commandments". Jesus was telling the lawyer the truth when he said "Thou hast answered correctly, this do, and live"

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

What is it with folks here at BB? You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with Jesus!

You put in bold yourself, the word "IF." That designates a hypothetical; a conjecture. It is not unlike the statements given in 1Cor.13

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Here is what Paul DID NOT SAY:
1. He did not say he could speak with the tongues of men and of angels.
2. He did not say he could understand all mysteries.
3. He did not say that he had all faith, nor all knowledge.
4. He did not say that he could remove mountains.
5. He did not say that he was going to bestow all his good to feed the poor.
6. And he did not say he was going to give his body to be burned.

He never said any of those things.
They are subjunctive. They begin with "though," "if," "suppose." They are suppositions.
Suppose I do this; just suppose. If I do any of the above....it would be of no profit if it was not done with love. But he didn't do those things. He never claimed to.

The same grammatical structure is used in many of the examples you are using.
"If you will enter into life keep the commandments," or the converse--
"If you will keep my commandments you will enter into life."
The if is impossible and cannot be done. It is conditional to the promise being kept.

The law could not save anyone.
The Israelites were under the law. The Mosaic covenant was made at Mount Sinai. Who kept it? Not one of the Israelites were able to keep it, though it was a covenant, a promise. It was met with absolute failure. No one could keep the law. Thus Christ came to fulfill the law. He was the one that lived a perfect and sinless life that through him we might have eternal life, not through keeping the law.

Again and again, Jesus uses the example of the law to demonstrate the sinfulness of others.

 

[matthew.nelson]

Some hear see us as NOT being sinners by birth, but by choice, so could ANY ever get saved by keeping the Law?

Man is born a sinner. We all have a sin nature that has passed from Adam and Eve to now. They brought sin into this world and it has corrupted everything. We as sinners are not able to keep the Law as it was used as a measure - to reveal the sinfulness of man. After the fall no person but Jesus has been able or will be able to keep the Law. The law is not a method of salvation. "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. "
John 14:6 (KJV)
There is no method of salvation except by Jesus.

 

[Winman]

You put in bold yourself, the word "IF." That designates a hypothetical; a conjecture. It is not unlike the statements given in 1Cor.13

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Here is what Paul DID NOT SAY:
1. He did not say he could speak with the tongues of men and of angels.
2. He did not say he could understand all mysteries.
3. He did not say that he had all faith, nor all knowledge.
4. He did not say that he could remove mountains.
5. He did not say that he was going to bestow all his good to feed the poor.
6. And he did not say he was going to give his body to be burned.

He never said any of those things.
They are subjunctive. They begin with "though," "if," "suppose." They are suppositions.
Suppose I do this; just suppose. If I do any of the above....it would be of no profit if it was not done with love. But he didn't do those things. He never claimed to.

The same grammatical structure is used in many of the examples you are using.
"If you will enter into life keep the commandments," or the converse--
"If you will keep my commandments you will enter into life."
The if is impossible and cannot be done. It is conditional to the promise being kept.

The law could not save anyone.
The Israelites were under the law. The Mosaic covenant was made at Mount Sinai. Who kept it? Not one of the Israelites were able to keep it, though it was a covenant, a promise. It was met with absolute failure. No one could keep the law. Thus Christ came to fulfill the law. He was the one that lived a perfect and sinless life that through him we might have eternal life, not through keeping the law.

Again and again, Jesus uses the example of the law to demonstrate the sinfulness of others.

Nonsense, Jesus was answering direct questions from people on what they must do to inherit eternal life. Jesus answered that if they would enter life, keep the commandments.

You guys are a laugh.

 

[DHK]

Nonsense, Jesus was answering direct questions from people on what they must do to inherit eternal life. Jesus answered that if they would enter life, keep the commandments.

You guys are a laugh.

Much of what Jesus said then is still applicable today.
The following certainly is:

Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Winman, are you truthfully able to say that you are able to fully keep these two commandments?

 

[Winman]

Much of what Jesus said then is still applicable today.
The following certainly is:

Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Winman, are you truthfully able to say that you are able to fully keep these two commandments?

Any commandment can be kept at the moment, to keep all of the commandments for a lifetime has escaped me, but not because I was UNABLE to obey, but because I CHOSE TO DISOBEY.

Tell me, did you ever HAVE to lie or to steal? What sins do you HAVE to commit? Answer honestly if you dare.

That's all Original Sin is, an excuse by dishonest and lazy people for their sin.

 

[OldRegular]

Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

What is it with folks here at BB? You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with Jesus!

Winman

I submit you are arguing with God. Tell us all, or tell all us ignorant folks on the Baptist Board? Who is it that truly loves the Lord God?

 

[MB]

Man is born a sinner. We all have a sin nature that has passed from Adam and Eve to now. They brought sin into this world and it has corrupted everything. We as sinners are not able to keep the Law as it was used as a measure - to reveal the sinfulness of man. After the fall no person but Jesus has been able or will be able to keep the Law. The law is not a method of salvation. "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. "
John 14:6 (KJV)
There is no method of salvation except by Jesus.

Scripture please that states we are born sinners? It just sounds like hot air to me. What about Job?
MB

 

[DHK]

Any commandment can be kept at the moment, to keep all of the commandments for a lifetime has escaped me, but not because I was UNABLE to obey, but because I CHOSE TO DISOBEY.

Tell me, did you ever HAVE to lie or to steal? What sins do you HAVE to commit? Answer honestly if you dare.

That's all Original Sin is, an excuse by dishonest and lazy people for their sin.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

You have a choice.
Either you are able to keep the two great commandments as Jesus expressed them
or:
You claim sinlessness, and are:
1. deceiving yourself.
2. the truth is not in you.
3. you say that Christ is a liar.
4. His word is not in you.

Where do you stand?
Are you able to perfectly keep His two Great Commandments?
Or do you call him a lar and His Word is not in you?

It can't be both.

 

[Winman]

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

You have a choice.
Either you are able to keep the two great commandments as Jesus expressed them
or:
You claim sinlessness, and are:
1. deceiving yourself.
2. the truth is not in you.
3. you say that Christ is a liar.
4. His word is not in you.

Where do you stand?
Are you able to perfectly keep His two Great Commandments?
Or do you call him a lar and His Word is not in you?

It can't be both.

Jesus said that if we love him, keep his commandments. Anytime we resolve to obey Jesus and keep his commandments we are expressing love toward him. Do I show perfect love 100% of the time? No.

Nevertheless, Jesus said if a person would enter life, keep the commandments. That is, if a person kept all the commandments from the day he was born until he died he would not be lost. He would not require salvation, salvation is for those who are lost. He would be one of the just persons who needs no repentance Jesus spoke of.

Even Albert Barnes knows and agrees with my interpretation;

Keep the commandments - That is, do what God has commanded. He in the next verses informs him what he meant by the commandments. Jesus said this, doubtless, to try him, and to convince him that he had by no means kept the commandments, and that in supposing he had he was altogether deceived. The young man thought he had kept them, and was relying on them for salvation. It was of great importance, therefore, to convince him that he was, after all, a sinner. Christ did not mean to say that any man would be saved by the works of the law, for the Bible teaches plainly that such will not be the case, Romans 3:20, Romans 3:28; Romans 4:6; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:9; 2 Timothy 1:9. At the same time, however, it is true that if a man perfectly complied with the requirements of the law he would be saved, for there would be no reason why he should be condemned. Jesus, therefore, since he saw he was depending on his works, told him that if he would enter into life that is, into heaven - he must keep the commandments; if he was depending on them he must keep them perfectly, and if this was done he would be saved. The reasons why Christ gave him this direction were, probably:

You fellas all ridicule me, and time after time I show you wrong. You should try reading the Bible and believing what it says instead of mindlessly believing the false doctrines of men.

If your view were correct, then Jesus would have been a liar. Jesus never lies, and when he was asked what a person must do to inherit eternal life, he said to keep the commandments.

That said, I agree that no man has ever, or will ever perfectly keep the commandments except Jesus.

 

[DHK]

Jesus said that if we love him, keep his commandments. Anytime we resolve to obey Jesus and keep his commandments we are expressing love toward him. Do I show perfect love 100% of the time? No.

Nevertheless, Jesus said if a person would enter life, keep the commandments. That is, if a person kept all the commandments from the day he was born until he died he would not be lost. He would not require salvation, salvation is for those who are lost. He would be one of the just persons who needs no repentance Jesus spoke of.

Even Albert Barnes knows and agrees with my interpretation;



You fellas all ridicule me, and time after time I show you wrong. You should try reading the Bible and believing what it says instead of mindlessly believing the false doctrines of men.

If your view were correct, then Jesus would have been a liar. Jesus never lies, and when he was asked what a person must do to inherit eternal life, he said to keep the commandments.

That said, I agree that no man has ever, or will ever perfectly keep the commandments except Jesus.

Let me quote you again:

I agree that no man has ever, or will ever perfectly keep the commandments except Jesus.

You just admitted you cannot keep his commandments.
Jesus gave you a commandment that you cannot keep.
Thus you are a hypocrite in what you are saying or you are the one that is saying that Jesus is a liar according to your own words.

 

[Winman]

Let me quote you again:
[/b]
You just admitted you cannot keep his commandments.
Jesus gave you a commandment that you cannot keep.
Thus you are a hypocrite in what you are saying or you are the one that is saying that Jesus is a liar according to your own words.

I did not say I CANNOT keep God's commandments, I admitted I have not kept his commandments. Huge difference.

Tell me, which of the commandments is impossible to perform?

You are simply trying to deflect away from the fact that once again you have been shown wrong. Of course you will never admit it, and you will do anything to change the subject.

The folks that read these threads are not fooled.

 

[Yeshua1]

I did not say I CANNOT keep God's commandments, I admitted I have not kept his commandments. Huge difference.

Tell me, which of the commandments is impossible to perform?

You are simply trying to deflect away from the fact that once again you have been shown wrong. Of course you will never admit it, and you will do anything to change the subject.

The folks that read these threads are not fooled.

ONLY Jesus could and did perfectly keep the law as intended by God, and he can do that because He IS GOD!

EVERY person in the bible that saw God in his real glory realised just howimpure and unholy there were, NONE of us could EVER keep the law, and IF you claim that you coild, just haven't, that would be arrogance!

 

[DHK]

I did not say I CANNOT keep God's commandments, I admitted I have not kept his commandments. Huge difference.

Tell me, which of the commandments is impossible to perform?

You are simply trying to deflect away from the fact that once again you have been shown wrong. Of course you will never admit it, and you will do anything to change the subject.

The folks that read these threads are not fooled.

You were asked:

Much of what Jesus said then is still applicable today.
The following certainly is:

Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Winman, are you truthfully able to say that you are able to fully keep these two commandments?

You replied:

I admit that no man except Jesus will ever keep all the commandments perfectly (that included yourself Winman).

You are not able to keep even these two commandments perfectly, are you? They are impossible to keep. Are you going to deny this again?
Or,
Are you going to claim sinlessness and be in danger of calling Christ a liar as John said in 1John 1:8,10?

 

[Yeshua1]

You were asked:

You replied:

I admit that no man except Jesus will ever keep all the commandments perfectly (that included yourself Winman).

You are not able to keep even these two commandments perfectly, are you? They are impossible to keep. Are you going to deny this again?
Or,
Are you going to claim sinlessness and be in danger of calling Christ a liar as John said in 1John 1:8,10?

Is he saying that he can keep them in his natural state, or that he can once he was saved, sinless perfe3ction state can be obtained?

 

[Winman]

You were asked:

You replied:

I admit that no man except Jesus will ever keep all the commandments perfectly (that included yourself Winman).

You are not able to keep even these two commandments perfectly, are you? They are impossible to keep. Are you going to deny this again?
Or,
Are you going to claim sinlessness and be in danger of calling Christ a liar as John said in 1John 1:8,10?

Whether a man can keep the commandments his entire life is irrelevant. When Jesus said "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" that is either a true statement or a lie. It happens to be 100% the truth. You cannot seem to grasp that. Albert Barnes understood that and wrote in his commentary.

You are trying to deflect and change the subject. Whether a man keeps the commandments or not is irrelevant, when Jesus said that to enter life keep the commandments is a perfectly true statement.

If you can't get it, that is your problem. You can't fix stupid. Actually, your problem is ARROGANCE.

 

[DHK]

Whether a man can keep the commandments his entire life is irrelevant. When Jesus said "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" that is either a true statement or a lie. It happens to be 100% the truth. You cannot seem to grasp that. Albert Barnes understood that and wrote in his commentary.

Albert Barnes is a man, not God.
The statement is conditional. If you can't keep the condition, then the rest of the statement is moot. A conditional doesn't have to be true. It is suppositional. It is hypothetical. It is conditioned by "IF." Again, I point you to 1Cor.13:1-3.

Did Paul speak with the tongues of men and of angels?
Did he have all knowledge and all faith?
Was he able to remove mountains?
Did he give his body to be burned?
Did he give away all his wealth to feed the poor?

Did he do those things?
No, he said: "Though" or IF, I do these things....
The concept is the same.

 

[Winman]

Albert Barnes is a man, not God.
The statement is conditional. If you can't keep the condition, then the rest of the statement is moot. A conditional doesn't have to be true. It is suppositional. It is hypothetical. It is conditioned by "IF." Again, I point you to 1Cor.13:1-3.

Did Paul speak with the tongues of men and of angels?
Did he have all knowledge and all faith?
Was he able to remove mountains?
Did he give his body to be burned?
Did he give away all his wealth to feed the poor?

Did he do those things?
No, he said: "Though" or IF, I do these things....
The concept is the same.

Blah, blah, blah.

When Jesus said, "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" that is a perfectly true statement. It is absolutely irrelevant as to whether any man actually keeps the commandments his whole life or not, that is still a perfectly true statement.

A child could understand this. Truth is, I think you understand it too, you just refuse to admit you were wrong. Albert Barnes understood exactly what Jesus and the word of God says. You seem unable to get it.

 

[DHK]

Blah, blah, blah.

When Jesus said, "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" that is a perfectly true statement. It is absolutely irrelevant as to whether any man actually keeps the commandments his whole life or not, that is still a perfectly true statement.

A child could understand this. Truth is, I think you understand it too, you just refuse to admit you were wrong. Albert Barnes understood exactly what Jesus and the word of God says. You seem unable to get it.

Deal with 1Cor.13:1-3

 

[Winman]

Deal with 1Cor.13:1-3

That has nothing to do with the young rich ruler and the lawyer asking Jesus a direct question, "What must I do to inherit eternal life"

Jesus directly answered them both and told them that if they would enter into life, keep the commandments. That is a perfectly true statement, if a man were to perfectly keep the commandments all his life he would not be lost. The fact that all men sin and come short of the glory of God does not alter the truth of Jesus's answer. I am sorry you cannot understand that, Albert Barnes understood it. John Gill understood it too.

keep the commandments;
that is, perfectly: he must do not only one good thing, but all the good things the law requires; he must not be deficient in any single action, in anyone work of the law, either as to matter, or manner of performance; everything must be done, and that just as the Lord in his law has commanded it. Our Lord answers according to the tenor of the covenant of works, under which this man was; and according to the law of God, which requires perfect obedience to it, as a righteousness, and a title to life; and in case of the least failure, curses and condemns to everlasting death; see ( Deuteronomy 6:25 ) ( Galatians 3:12 Galatians 3:10 ) . This Christ said, in order to show, that it is impossible to enter into, or obtain eternal life by the works of the law, since no man can perfectly keep it; and to unhinge this man from off the legal foundation on which he was, that he might drop all his dependencies on doing good things, and come to him for righteousness and life.

Now, I don't know if I agree with Gills "covenant of works", but Gill knew that Jesus's statement to this lawyer was perfectly true, and that if any man were to perfectly keep all the commandments he would not be lost but inherit eternal life.

Again, I am sorry you cannot understand what these scholars easily understood.