Brother Bob
New Member
picky picky:laugh: :laugh: If you get Godly Sorrow it seems repentance is not far off then.
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Can a person loose salvation or Once saved always saved?
- Thread starter TaliOrlando
- Start date
So don't mention it! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:J. Jump said:
Sorry, couldn't resist that 'lead with the chin' opening.
Actually, so are Romans 4, and Ephesians 2 - both written to believers who are already saved. Does that mean they are not statements that concern how one gets saved?
Ed
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There does need to be repentance, but some here I think are defining repentance as "stop all sinning'.....which cannot be done in practicality. It is a hard thing to look around us and see professing Christians not living right. But that is never a reason to think that they lost their salvation. From what I can tell, most of the argument against OSAS usually boils down to the idea that if we tell a person they can't lose their salvation than they will think it's ok to go live any old way they want. This isn't really trusting the Holy Spirit to do His job, is it?
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bapmom said:Thank you EdSutton!
No problem, DHK. Im just glad we figured it out. Im sorry for the truly awkward wording. I barely understood my sentence myself.
Personally, I usually get my tongue twisted around my eyetooth, so much that I can't see what I'm saying! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Ed
Can a person LOSE salvation or Once saved always saved?
One key word here is "αμεταμελητον" (αμεταμελητος) a negative adjective derived from "μεταμελομαι" - to care afterwards or differently - or in other words, to regret. (This word is used reflexively in the NT, BTW.) Hence this word is "not regretted", in the literal sense, but in the usage, as an idiom, is properly by implication and usage, 'enduring' or 'irrevocable'. ('Strong's Concordance' #278 ; Wigram - Analytical Greek Lexicon of the New Testamant, p. 18, column a, 7th entry)
The second key word is "μετανοια(ν)" a noun - a change of mind - from "μετανοεω" (verb) - to think afterwards or differently (This word is not used reflexively, to my knowledge.) - (Strong's # 3340; Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon...' p. 405, column b, 2nd entry) Note the difference in the two verbs above, both translated 'repent' in the NT although the first is used only a total of 6 times in 5 verses, and the latter about 30 times. In every instance where salvation is in view, the word is "μετανοεω".
The third key word is "κατεργαζεται" (TR) ["εργαζεται" (W/H)] - bring about, result in [to cause to exist, produce] Thayer op.cit. p.339, [249].
So now let us look one more time at the verse and we find we now have this rendering.
"For Godly sorrow results in (causes or works) a change of mind leading to an irrevocable salvation, but worldly sorrow results in death." (II Cor. 7:10)
They (Godly sorrow and 'repentance') are most certainly connected, as we have seen, but they are not the same thing (i.e. " Repentance is a "Godly Sorrow""), nor is one 'contained' in the other. (My emphasis- Ed)
BTW, as far as I can tell, not one person on this thread has said that a person should not repent, or that repentance is not required. DHK has not said that. Nor have I. In fact, I will say that it is required for a person to repent, in order to be saved. BUT that Biblical repentance is "repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 20:21) and/or "...of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God," (Heb. 6:1)
Did everyone get that?? The direction of repentance is the same direction as faith, toward God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance is not directed (nor is it possible to be) towards your/my sins; repentance is directed towards the Son! Only after one has received salvation and become a new creation in Christ, can one even confess (our) sins, as in I John 1:6-10.
This one is for free! The only person in the OT, as far as I can tell, who was ever said to repent is Job. But God is said to repent or not to repent at least 60 times, if my memory is not failing me. So who was it that said repentance is from sins? Ya' wanna tell God that he was 'repenting' of His sins??? You can; Not me!!! Back to where we left off -
The unbeliever is said to be "in sin". Even if repent Biblically meant "turn about" (which it does not) all an unbeliever would be doing is a 180* turn, and would still be "in sin". The effective difference would be that instead of looking toward the North, he or she would now be looking toward the South, and just as much "in sin" as ever. The Christian is "in Christ". I like that. The view is better, there. (All the above emphases in the post are my own. - Ed)
Ed
P.S. The title of the thread unwittingly tells what we should be doing. We should "Loose our salvation" to a world in bondage to sin! Amen!
P.P.S. Without even previously seeing your post, gekko, I've answered here at least one question you asked for.
Gotta' disagree with you on this one, Bob, where you saidBrother Bob said:
That is simply not what Scripture teaches in the only verse where these two things are mentioned together, as I read it.
And BTW, this verse (and even the context) says nothing about remembering every sin, at all. Although I think I remember something about God saying He will remember our sins no more. But I digress. Anyway, let's look at this verse in just a bit more detail. This is what the verse looks like in the Greek Language.
One key word here is "αμεταμελητον" (αμεταμελητος) a negative adjective derived from "μεταμελομαι" - to care afterwards or differently - or in other words, to regret. (This word is used reflexively in the NT, BTW.) Hence this word is "not regretted", in the literal sense, but in the usage, as an idiom, is properly by implication and usage, 'enduring' or 'irrevocable'. ('Strong's Concordance' #278 ; Wigram - Analytical Greek Lexicon of the New Testamant, p. 18, column a, 7th entry)
The second key word is "μετανοια(ν)" a noun - a change of mind - from "μετανοεω" (verb) - to think afterwards or differently (This word is not used reflexively, to my knowledge.) - (Strong's # 3340; Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon...' p. 405, column b, 2nd entry) Note the difference in the two verbs above, both translated 'repent' in the NT although the first is used only a total of 6 times in 5 verses, and the latter about 30 times. In every instance where salvation is in view, the word is "μετανοεω".
The third key word is "κατεργαζεται" (TR) ["εργαζεται" (W/H)] - bring about, result in [to cause to exist, produce] Thayer op.cit. p.339, [249].
So now let us look one more time at the verse and we find we now have this rendering.
"For Godly sorrow results in (causes or works) a change of mind leading to an irrevocable salvation, but worldly sorrow results in death." (II Cor. 7:10)
They (Godly sorrow and 'repentance') are most certainly connected, as we have seen, but they are not the same thing (i.e. " Repentance is a "Godly Sorrow""), nor is one 'contained' in the other. (My emphasis- Ed)
BTW, as far as I can tell, not one person on this thread has said that a person should not repent, or that repentance is not required. DHK has not said that. Nor have I. In fact, I will say that it is required for a person to repent, in order to be saved. BUT that Biblical repentance is "repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 20:21) and/or "...of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God," (Heb. 6:1)
Did everyone get that?? The direction of repentance is the same direction as faith, toward God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance is not directed (nor is it possible to be) towards your/my sins; repentance is directed towards the Son! Only after one has received salvation and become a new creation in Christ, can one even confess (our) sins, as in I John 1:6-10.
This one is for free! The only person in the OT, as far as I can tell, who was ever said to repent is Job. But God is said to repent or not to repent at least 60 times, if my memory is not failing me. So who was it that said repentance is from sins? Ya' wanna tell God that he was 'repenting' of His sins??? You can; Not me!!! Back to where we left off -
The unbeliever is said to be "in sin". Even if repent Biblically meant "turn about" (which it does not) all an unbeliever would be doing is a 180* turn, and would still be "in sin". The effective difference would be that instead of looking toward the North, he or she would now be looking toward the South, and just as much "in sin" as ever. The Christian is "in Christ". I like that. The view is better, there. (All the above emphases in the post are my own. - Ed)
Ed
P.S. The title of the thread unwittingly tells what we should be doing. We should "Loose our salvation" to a world in bondage to sin! Amen!
P.P.S. Without even previously seeing your post, gekko, I've answered here at least one question you asked for.
Darron Steele
New Member
Inquiring Mind said:
I believe in Eternal Security. 1 John 2:19 records the only documented actual departure from the Christian communion that I know of, and the explanation is that it was because they were never really Christians. It further specifies that if these people had ever really been Christians, they would have remained.
For me, whether or not I can lose my salvation is irrelevant because regardless I intend to serve the Lord for the rest of my life. I serve the Lord because I want to, not because I think I have to in order to "keep my salvation" -- as if I could possibly have something to do via my own efforts with my salvation, Ephesians 2:8-10.
What bothers me about the "Eternal Security debate" is quotes like the above, where believers of it are slandered as having no real devotion to the Lord and/or feeling no real obligation to obey the Lord. The other thing that bothers me is that people who make statements like the above seem to indicate that they can think of no other reason to serve the Lord except for fear of Hell-fire.
The worst thing about rejecting Eternal Security is the effect it has on people who do so. Among these people, I have found it more difficult to get them to acknowledge that they ever sin -- even when the facts are laid out and the Scriptures are opened to the relevant passage. From what I see, their steadfast belief that every sin potentially endangers their status as a Christian, coupled with either
1) their fear of the terrible consequences thereof, and/or
2) causes them to believe that as `good Christians,' it `cannot be that bad,'
makes them unwilling to do as 1 John 1:9-10 calls for.
Believers in Eternal Security, in contrast, generally serve the Lord out of the Romans 12:1-2 mindset. If need be, we get chastised with loving Fatherly chastisement per Hebrews 12:6.
Hope of Glory
New Member
Inquiring Mind said:
If you believe that spiritual salvation can be lost or forfeited, then you believe the Bible can have contradictions. Acts 16:31: Believe (punctiliar) on the Lord Jesus and you will (indicative; no doubt about it) be saved. It's the simplest thing in the world.
However, although OSAS is Biblical fact, many people do teach a license to sin, and OSAS teaches no such thing. A saved person has much responsibility, and rewards, loss, or chastisement meted out at the Bema are based upon the actions of the individual after they are saved.
Brother Bob
New Member
I guess we just don't agree on this one then Ed. You see, I believe that is how you get back in favor with God is first to "repent of your sins".
KJMatt.03
"1": In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
"2": And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Acts, chapter 3
19": Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
1Jo 1:8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Act 2:38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
41: Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls
J.Jump.;
It may of been to the church but was telling them to take inventory of themselves that they were saved.
2 Corinthians, chapter 7
11: For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
12: Wherefore, though I wrote unto you, I did it not for his cause that had done the wrong, nor for his cause that suffered wrong, but that our care for you in the sight of God might appear unto you.
Ed;
You may still disagree, I don't know but I did make a small correction to the post you disagreed with.
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Brother Bob
New Member
If I see a "so called Christian" in adultery, murder, stealing sinning unto death then I say he never was a Christian to start
with.
I don't believe in this moral of Christians being like the world.
You are either a Christian or you are not!!
Certainly, especially Ephesians 2. But Ephesians 2 is not talking about a present reality, but a past action. He was telling them how they were saved. Which tells us how a person is saved so that we will know.
But the Galatians passage is talking about present realities that continue each and every day of our life here on this third rock from the sun. If we are sowing to the flesh we are going to reap corruption. But if we are sowing to the Spirit then we are going to reap life!
If that is a statement of eternal salvation then eternal salvation is not by God's grace, but by human effort, which makes the Bible a lie, so we know that contextually this passage has nothing to do with eternal salvation.
Bob I have highlighted the problem areas in your statement, but it's nothing new that hasn't been shared before. It doesn't matter what ANYONE has to say about the matter. It only matters what the Bible has to say on the matter and Scripture just doesn't line up with your statement.
You can say all you want to that they were never a Christian to start with, but the Bible says if they trusted in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, on their behalf a sinner then they are saved forever more from that point forward even if they never do a single good work for the rest of their earthly lives and despite what anyone else might say to the contrary.
You are SPOT ON here Bro. Bob, but that doesn't jive with your first statement. Either you are a Christian or not, or you're a Christian if you do good works and live a good life and then you can become a non-Christian by not doing these things and everything hinges on waiting to see if there is a change in a person's life. Those are contradictory statements.
The Bible teaches that you are either saved or dead, and if you believe then you are saved!!!
Brother Bob
New Member
J. Jump;
My Bible tells me that I will know them by the fruit they bear. Now you can walk around blind as a bat if you want but the Lord give me 2 eyes and knowledge and with the help of the Lord I will use them.
As for me and my house, I will serve the Lord. Also, it does matter what someone has to say about the matter. If you don't believe me then commit one of these acts in front of your Pastor. Scripture says to have a good report of them that are without.
BTW, I am not on a SPOT, if I am I can't find it. Those statements may contradict in your mind but not in mine.
My Bible tells me that I will know them by the fruit they bear. Now you can walk around blind as a bat if you want but the Lord give me 2 eyes and knowledge and with the help of the Lord I will use them.
As for me and my house, I will serve the Lord. Also, it does matter what someone has to say about the matter. If you don't believe me then commit one of these acts in front of your Pastor. Scripture says to have a good report of them that are without.
BTW, I am not on a SPOT, if I am I can't find it. Those statements may contradict in your mind but not in mine.
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Inquiring Mind
New Member
not according to 1 John 5.
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
A brother is a brother in Christ.
Brother Bob
New Member
Did you happen to read the part that said a sin which is not unto death?
Anyway, what does that have to do with this:
(You are either a Christian or you are not!! ) This would include the sin unto death that he said not to even pray for it.
Brother Bob will all due respect I would encourage you to re-read "your" Bible and see the context of that passage. It's not talking about a general population of people and whether they are believers or not. It's talking about how to distinguish a false teacher.
And by the way a person can be saved and be a false teacher! Just look around at Christendom. All these "teachers" are not teaching the Truth, but yet they are saved.
How can pointing out Scripture Truth be walking around blind as a bat? Salvation is a matter between the person and God. It's a heart thing and you can't know someone's heart just like I can't. It is IMPOSSIBLE to tell if someone is saved or not. You can't do it. I can't do it. The pope can't do it. Nobody except GOD ALMIGHTY can do it, so why would you continue to keep saying you can.
You clearly are teaching against Scripture. The Bible clearly says only God knows the heart, but you say Brother Bob can know the heart which makes God a liar and I'm sorry but that's just not possible.
Well Brother Bob you can go on convincing yourself you are right, but the Bible CLEARLY teaches against what you have said, but if you want to continue believing something that is in error you are more than welcome to do that
Brother Bob
New Member
J. Jump;
Where do you get all that stuff. You sure don't get it from the Bible and then scold me to go back and read. Hogwash!
KJMatt.03
7": But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
"8": Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Luke, chapter 6
"41": And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
"42": Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.
"43": For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
"44": For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
I already made my point on this up above.
Not too sure the Bible is what you are reading.Well Brother Bob you can go on convincing yourself you are right, but the Bible CLEARLY teaches against what you have said, but if you want to continue believing something that is in error you are more than welcome to do that
Bob thanks for making my point. He was speaking to the religious leaders and teachers of the day.
This is spoken to believers about believers not non-believers.
Again Brother Bob there is just nothing that supports your past statement.
Bob you can't Scripturally defend your idea that you can "know" who is saved and who isn't, because the Bible makes it clear that only God knows the heart of man. That's just the plain and simple Truth.
Here's just another example of how fruits can't tell you who is saved and who isn't. I had a friend of mine that was a pastor of a church for several months to a couple of years, I can't remember the length of time, but one Sunday he told his congregation that he that day was trusting Jesus as His Savior for the first time in his life.
His works could have fooled the best of them, but he admitted that he wasn't saved. Good works are not the standard by which to judge whether a person is saved or not. Mainly becuase that's not your job nor my job, but God's job.
Again you are plainly outside the bounds of Scripture, but if you want to continue outside those bounds there is nothing I can do about it, but I pray that the Spirit will get you to align your thinking with His, because you are responsible for the souls of the people under your teaching!