Can a person loose salvation or Once saved always saved?

[webdog]

I think you may be reading a lot into it, if you think that "disciple" can mean "false disciple". (Or maybe you're not reading enough into it and think that "disciple" can mean just about anyone.)

A "devil" is nothing more than an accuser. (The only thing that I can recall Judas accusing anyone of is not giving enough into the coffers, but he was accused of stealing from the bag. He was a thief and wanted more money to steal.) A slanderer; an adversary. When used with the definite article, it generally refers to Satan, but in John 7:60, there is no definite article.

A disciple is simply a follower. Being called a "devil" is certainly a lot more than being called an accuser! If Judas was saved, explain why it was better if he was never born? What true child of God would He say this to?

 

[webdog]

Also you have to remember Jesus called Peter Satan and told Peter to get behind Him. Now no one is going to argue that Peter wasn't saved, but he was treated much more harshly than Judas.

Again church traditions are really clouding the Scriptures in these last days much like traditions clouded the Scriptures during the time of Christ.

He did not call Peter "satan"...He did not say "you...Peter...satan" but He did say "one of you is a devil".

 

[EdSutton]

It is talking about saved and unsaved and the fruit of both. Jesus is teaching His Apostles about the very thing about the fruits of the tree, and as HP said, Judas was among them also, so in reality He was teaching saved and unsaved, unless you believe that Judas was saved.

So, to try and separate them into saved groups and unsaved groups on the mount you have to know who was there and not just call them teachers of that time now wouldn't you?

Ed;
None of the other Apostles knew that Judas was of the devil so how am I supposed to know. You always have to run back to the OT to prove a point don't you? Also Ed;, being you got one out of the three can you get all three?
What about all your neighbors Ed? Can you walk up and down the street and say that one saved and that one is not?

I did not say anything about Judas, at all. Nor was I the one that said an adulterer and/or a murderer was not saved. Nor did I say anything about saying that any of my neighbors were or were not saved, either.

That's zero out of three for me, on your response. I merely 'clarified' or gave an example of what you said. And BTW, those in the OT were saved as those in the NT- by faith in God (Rom. 4:5)

You've obviously mistaken some of the things I said, by identifying some other's as mine. I'm the guy that said that my Biblical 'hero' is Lot, for he is one of only ten individuals spoken of specifically in Scripture as 'just' or 'righteous' (three times, no less, just in case we might have missed it ), and the only individual specifically identified by name as being one of the 'Godly'. Which seems to provide a great deal of annoyance to some (Wonder why??), especially those who seem to like to judge others, and who are not a part of the so-called "grace" crowd.

And I definitely do NOT mean the so-called Calvinists, in that, for I consider that 'system' to redefine and deny, as opposed to affirming, grace.
Again, wonder why?

Ed

 

[J. Jump]

He did not call Peter "satan"...He did not say "you...Peter...satan"

I'll just let Scripture speak for Itself.

Matthew 16:23 - But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's.

Also found in Mark.

 

[Brother Bob]

Sorry Ed;
I think I got someone else mixed in with you. Sorry again,

 

[EdSutton]

Sorry Ed;
I think I got someone else mixed in with you. Sorry again,

I accept your gracious apology.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Thank you, for I sometimes get too fast on here and fail to read the posts good enough.:tear:

 

[BobRyan]

HP: Doesn’t this seem sort of fatalistic? How can Judas be responsible, thus blamed for his actions, if in fact it was not anything more than the predestined act of God? Can you even conceive of a Loving and Holy God that would personally orchestrate the evils perpetrated on the Savior? Is this not situation ethics run amuck, in that if it serves a good purpose (salvation) it is alright to be the author of this horrible evil?

#1. God does not "make Judas sin"
#2. God KNOWS what Judas "will do" JUST as God "knows" all that Christ will do and all that HE will do. God's foreknowledge does not stop HIM from having free will or anyone else.

#3. God "DRAWS ALL mankind" to Himself INCLUDING Judas. God sent Christ into the world who "enlightens EVERY Man". Including Judas.

But Judas CHOSE in the end - to turn against God.

Still God "knew it" and knew what He was getting into when He sent His Son to pay for our sins. He could have stopped the torment (as He stopped the waves of the sea) at any time - He "chose" not to.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Also you have to remember Jesus called Peter Satan and told Peter to get behind Him. Now no one is going to argue that Peter wasn't saved, but he was treated much more harshly than Judas.

Again church traditions are really clouding the Scriptures in these last days much like traditions clouded the Scriptures during the time of Christ.

If you are arguing that Judas may have been saved (After all he was sent out - did evangelism and had the outpouring of the Holy Spirit - spiritual gifts given to his ministry) - I agree.

But in then end - he was still lost. (Matt 18 "Forgiveness revoked" and Rom 11 "Cast out of the vine of Christ" explains this fully)

In Christ,

Bob

 

[J. Jump]

But in then end - he was still lost.

I could agree with that in that he is going to miss out on the inheritance and ruling in the coming kingdom of Christ, but I would not agree that he is bound for eternal punishment that non-believers are bound for.

His did not lose his place in the family of God, just his sonship.

 

[webdog]

I could agree with that in that he is going to miss out on the inheritance and ruling in the coming kingdom of Christ, but I would not agree that he is bound for eternal punishment that non-believers are bound for.

His did not lose his place in the family of God, just his sonship.

Can a believer become possessed?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJ: His did not lose his place in the family of God, just his sonship.

HP: Could you define ‘sonship’ and establish it as separate from ones place in the family of God? (utilizing Scripture of course)

 

[Brother Bob]

I could just see what would happen if I got up and preached that Judas was going to be as the angels and we will all spend eternity with him. They would not even bother to open the door, just throw me threw it.

They wouldn't even take the time to ask me what "sonship" is? They wouldn't even care that I am getting old and it would hurt when I hit that door.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Bob: They wouldn't even take the time to ask me what "sonship" is? They wouldn't even care that I am getting old and it would hurt when I hit that door.

HP: Sounds like you may have a few goats in the audience.

We, (as believers) are even called to love our enemies.
First, I do not mention the following verse because I count any on this list as my ‘enemy’, (for I do NOT!!) but rather to only say that even ‘IF” they were, I would still have to be careful of injuring or hurting them. It is the last part of this verse that is especially difficult for us humans to understand how and when to place such ‘kindness’ into practice.


Lu 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

 

[Brother Bob]

HP: Sounds like you may have a few goats in the audience.

Sometimes we make light of things HP, don't take them so seriously.

You think Christians can't get angry then you not been where I have. Have you ever been around an Association meeting

where there was a big disagreement going on. I have seen some pretty heated times in my life.

Also, there almost always is a few goats around.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Bob: Sometimes we make light of things HP, don't take them so seriously.

HP: Now 'that’s' funny! :applause: When I tried to paste an icon after my goat remark, for some strange reason it would not work, so I just posted it without it, hoping that the humor would be understood. Oh well, some know how to add humor and others of us fail miserably.

(Now it is working fine.)

 

[Brother Bob]

:laugh:

(delayed)

 

[J. Jump]

Can a believer become possessed?

No.

Could you define ‘sonship’ and establish it as separate from ones place in the family of God? (utilizing Scripture of course)

HP I'm inbetween photo shoots right now so I don't have a lot of time. Hopefully HopeofGlory will post soon as I think he has some material on it.

The Greek word used as adoption is a compound word that means son placing. It is a matter of inheritance, which is a family matter. Inheritance only comes into play after a person is a part of the family. So a person is born into the family of God as a child of God, but then inheritance comes into play, which is future. You can receive your inheritance in the future, or you can do like Esau and Reuben and forfeit your inheritance by living for self now.

Hope that helps a little.

 

[J. Jump]

I could just see what would happen if I got up and preached that Judas was going to be as the angels and we will all spend eternity with him. They would not even bother to open the door, just throw me threw it.

They wouldn't even take the time to ask me what "sonship" is? They wouldn't even care that I am getting old and it would hurt when I hit that door.

Bob all joking aside (and there is a thread of truth in jest) that is the biggest problem facing preachers and teachers today. They are forced to keep teaching church tradition because they don't want to teach the Truth for fear of what might happen to them be it ridicule from friends, loss of friends, loss of family relationships, or even loss of my "preaching" job.

We must believe and teach the Truth despite how much it might hurt us!

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob all joking aside (and there is a thread of truth in jest) that is the biggest problem facing preachers and teachers today. They are forced to keep teaching church tradition because they don't want to teach the Truth for fear of what might happen to them be it ridicule from friends, loss of friends, loss of family relationships, or even loss of my "preaching" job.

(I could just see what would happen if I got up and preached that Judas was going to be as the angels and we will all spend eternity with him.)

The thing is J. Jump, I wouldn't blame them on this one and if you really knew me you would know among all of the brethren in several associations I am considered to be one of the ones who won't budge no matter where it cuts if that is what I believe in.