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Can a person loose salvation or Once saved always saved?

Hope of Glory

New Member
I'm going to do this in a reverse order, and first look at the English word, then look at Scriptures. Generally, I do it the other way around, but so many people are hung up on the KJV and the English words and then they convert that to our modern understanding. You need to look at the primary meaning of "adoption" in English and the way it was used when the KJV was translated. Here's a post from WordNet from Princeton:

adoption

n 1: the act of accepting with approval; favorable reception; "its adoption by society"; "the proposal found wide acceptance" [syn: acceptance, acceptation, espousal] 2: a legal proceeding that creates a parent-child relation between persons not related by blood; the adopted child is entitled to all privileges belonging to a natural child of the adoptive parents (including the right to inherit) 3: the appropriation (of ideas or words etc) from another source; "the borrowing of ancient motifs was very apparent" [syn: borrowing]
WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

Now, on to Scriptural usage of the word. If you think in terms of adopting a child, you're going to run into problems. Why do you need to be adopted into a family if you're born into a family? You don't.

When we read or hear the word "adoption", we do tend to think of a child being born into a family and then that child, through a legal process, becoming a member of another family. There are those who teach that when we are saved we are adopted into the family of God. This concept of adoption does not agree with what we find in John 3:3, which says, “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be [born from above], he cannot see the kingdom of God”. When we receive Jesus Christ as our personal savior, we are born from above into the family of God. Being born into the family God, means adoption, as in placement into a family, is not necessary.

In Ephesians 1:5 we find the word “adoption” in context with the word “children”. It says, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will”. The phrase “adoption of children” is the translation of one Greek word, “huiothesia”. This word is the same word that is used in Romans 8:15, and is a compound word containing the words “huios” and “thesis”. The word “huios” means “son”. The word “thesis” means “to put”, “to lay”, “to appoint”, or “to ordain”. Not son-ship itself, but son-ship conferred. There is not a single hint to suggest that the word “huiothesia” means “adoption”. The word “huiothesia” means “To appoint as a son” or “To ordain to son-ship”.

It has to do with position or acceptance within a family, not placement into a family.
 

J. Jump

New Member
The thing is J. Jump, I wouldn't blame them on this one and if you really knew me you would know among all of the brethren in several associations I am considered to be one of the ones who won't budge no matter where it cuts if that is what I believe in.

Brother Bob it is extremely easy to tell that is the way you are and I wish you could see how dangerous that is, especially since you have people that trust you with their souls to help them in spiritual matters.
 

Brother Bob

New Member
Brother Bob it is extremely easy to tell that is the way you are and I wish you could see how dangerous that is, especially since you have people that trust you with their souls to help them in spiritual matters.
Then I might be telling them some of that stuff you put out and I don't think the Lord would like it.
 
JJ: The Greek word used as adoption ….

HP: You lose me here. Who is addressing adoption? I spoke of being pardoned, but to my knowledge I did not bring up the issue of adoption. I fail to see the connection.

As far as adoption is concerned, God reserves the right to divorce any that leave their first love and go whoring after another.
 

EdSutton

New Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: You lose me here. Who is addressing adoption? I spoke of being pardoned, but to my knowledge I did not bring up the issue of adoption. I fail to see the connection.

As far as adoption is concerned, God reserves the right to divorce any that leave their first love and go whoring after another.

Uh- let's see how does one "divorce" a part of their own body?? And the only ones in Scripture that I am aware that it is said that they "left their first love", is the church at Ephesus, to whom it is said-
1 “To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,
‘These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: 2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. 6 But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’ (Rev. 2:1-7 - NKJV)

And as far as I read, He said nothing here about "going whoring after another", either. And since I'm pretty sure the Lord was speaking to more that just "the angel of the church at Ephesus", (for that one is called a star), and the lampstand (singular) that He warns of removing IS the church, itself, it would appear that this assembly is in peril, here, not individuals. BTW, this warning did come true, as there is virtually nothing left even of the city of Ephesus, today, and there is no church at Ephesus.

Ed
 
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ED: Uh- let's see how does one "divorce" a part of their own body?? And the only ones in Scripture that I am aware that it is said that they "left their first love", is the church at Ephesus, to whom it is said-

HP: Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

It would appear to me from this verse that God will indeed divorce one that leaves their first love and does despite the grace of God. Make of the verse what you will, but as for me, I do not intend to play the part of backsliding Israel or her sister Judah. I see this as a warning to stay true to the covenant I made with God when I came to know Him as my personal Savior.

How do you see the verse, and do you think it is a warning to any in this day that have entered into covenant relationship with God through salvation?
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: Could you define ‘sonship’ and establish it as separate from ones place in the family of God? (utilizing Scripture of course)

Easy - Luke tells us that "Adam was the son of God" speaking of the family relationship that Adam held by birth - by his "created position".

Saints today can only get that by "adoption" - but it belonged to Adam - naturally - by virtue of his being directly Created by God.

Yet - Adam "became lost" and needed salvation. He THEN had to be "ADOPTED" to get back to that sonship relationship LOST at the fall.

We can all LOSE that same relationship by "unbelief" as Romans 11 states. AND YET when lost even in that case "HE is able to GRAFT THEM IN AGAIN if they do not CONTINUE in their UNBELIEF".

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
If you are arguing that Judas may have been saved (After all he was sent out - did evangelism and had the outpouring of the Holy Spirit - spiritual gifts given to his ministry) - I agree.

But in then end - he was still lost. (Matt 18 "Forgiveness revoked" and Rom 11 "Cast out of the vine of Christ" explains this fully)
 

Hope of Glory

New Member
BobRyan said:
If you are arguing that Judas may have been saved

If you think he is unsaved, then you have to argue that he lost his salvation. Is that what you are arguing? That's a different discussion.
 
HOG: If you think he is unsaved, then you have to argue that he lost his salvation.

HP: I know your question is directed to BR, but this I trust is an appropriate response. It is not that Judas ‘lost his salvation’ but rather that he failed the probationary state God had allowed him to partake of.

Our probationary state in this world is indeed part of the salvation process, but it does not define it in total. We can indeed say that in this world we are indeed saved, but that in no way implies that we cannot turn from that state in renewed selfishness, and do despite the grace of God we have partaken of by faith in this present world, and be lost in the end. That is a distinct possibility according to Scripture.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Webdog asks "can a believer become possessed"

J.Jump says "no".

Then Judas wasn't a believer.
Joh 13:27 After Judas ate the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Therefore Jesus told him, "What you're doing, do quickly."
 

Hope of Glory

New Member
Probationary state!?!?!

So, what does that mean? He's almost saved until he does enough good works or what?



BTW, Webdog, how do you define "possessed"?
 
HOG: Probationary state!?!?!

So, what does that mean? He's almost saved until he does enough good works or what?

HP: When one commits a crime and is returned to society on probation, does he have to wait around and see if he does enough good works to be free?
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Hope of Glory said:
Probationary state!?!?!

So, what does that mean? He's almost saved until he does enough good works or what?



BTW, Webdog, how do you define "possessed"?
John 13:27 gives a pretty clear definition of being possessed.
 

J. Jump

New Member
Then Judas wasn't a believer.
Joh 13:27 After Judas ate the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Therefore Jesus told him, "What you're doing, do quickly."


That doesn't mean Satan physically or literally entered into Judas, but that Satan entered Judas through his thoughts and planted the seed of what was to come. Jesus knows the thoughts of man and as soon as the thought was planted Jesus knew and said alright go get done what you are going to do.

To me that is the only thing that is consistent with the rest of Scripture. That is the only instance that we have in Scripture that I am aware of with such wording as Satan entered a man. Any time we read of possession it is always an unclean spirit or evil spirit, but never Satan himself.

Again if Judas wasn't saved then neither was any other Israelite and that's just an impossibility that doesn't jive with Scripture. Judas as saved long before he ever even met Christ.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
J. Jump said:
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That doesn't mean Satan physically or literally entered into Judas, but that Satan entered Judas through his thoughts and planted the seed of what was to come. Jesus knows the thoughts of man and as soon as the thought was planted Jesus knew and said alright go get done what you are going to do.

To me that is the only thing that is consistent with the rest of Scripture. That is the only instance that we have in Scripture that I am aware of with such wording as Satan entered a man. Any time we read of possession it is always an unclean spirit or evil spirit, but never Satan himself.

Again if Judas wasn't saved then neither was any other Israelite and that's just an impossibility that doesn't jive with Scripture. Judas as saved long before he ever even met Christ.
I think it's a stretch to say that satan didn't really enter him...but entered his thoughts. The text doesn't allow for that interpretation, IMO. The word for enter (either literally or figuratively) implies satan "went into" Judas, not that he implanted a thought.
 

J. Jump

New Member
Actually if you will look at some lexicons there is room for that and again it is the only thing that is consistent with the rest of Scripture. For Satan to have physically entered Judas would be to place contradiction on Scripture or say that a saved person still can be possessed, but I don't think Scripture supports that.

What we have to remember is salvation is the same for everyone in that it is by God's grace through faith apart from works. However the "faith" is what is different. Judas was not asked to believe exactly what we are asked to believe.

Many in Christendom today think that the Jews of that time were saved exactly like we are today, but that's just not the case. Again Judas was saved long before Jesus was even known to him.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
There is no other name under Heaven by which men can be saved...for jews and gentiles alike...past, present and future.
 
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