Can an Evolutionist be Saved?

[Craigbythesea]

They have actually found them frozen in glaciers and have been able to tell the exact time and date of their incarceration by checking their Rolex's. Isn't science awesome?

Anyone who believes that the age of glaciers cannot be accurately determined has probably never set foot on a university campus, let alone earned a Ph.D. from one.

And we all know that the story of Noah’s Ark cannot be a literal, historical account because even the U.S.S. Ronald Reagan could not hold a pair of all the unclean animals and seven pairs of all the clean animals alive on the earth 6,000 years ago. And when one adds the weight of the necessary food and cages, we know that the ship would have to be close to the size of the state of Rhode Island. And of course very few kinds of fresh water fish can tolerate more than a trace of salt in the water, and very few salt water fish can survive can survive in brackish water, so of course four men and four women built aquariums for thousands of kinds of fish, filled them with water containing the appropriate amount of salt, scooped up the fish in a net, and the ship didn’t sink! Even a ship the size of the state of Texas could not hold that about of weight. This is a simple fact! And for any Baptist to say that facts are irrelevant to Biblical truth desecrates the Baptist faith, and does not say a whole lot for the Bible!

 

[Craigbythesea]

Your obvious affection for your education has seemingly outran your ability to excercise the faith aspect of our belief system.

My faith in Christ and his atonement for my sins does not require that Jesus was chased all over the planet by an Allosaurus ferox before he died on the cross. But looking at some of the posts in this thread, it could appear to some that an Allosaurus ferox ate Jesus before He got to the cross.

 

[James_Newman]

I don't understand why you even call yourself a Christian if the entire bible is a big fairy tale to you. If this is representative of the state of the baptist church on the left-behind coast, then I would start looking out for the big one.

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

According to my God, the flood is a fact. You get your facts from who? An omnipotent, holy God taught me about the creation. Who was your science teacher? Do his credentials hold a candle to the creator of the universe's?

 

[Craigbythesea]

Most would say that a sea parting for a million people to cross over, and then supernaturally joining together again is contrary to the laws of physics.

Yes, but the Bible makes it expressly clear that a miracle of God is being described here.

However, the description of the Ark and Noah's family and the construction of the Ark and the bringing of the animals into it does NOT include the slightest hint of a miracle. We simply have the account of physically impossible acts which obviously did not literally occur as portrayed.

I believe in all the miracles in the Bible that are described as miracles. I do not, however, hold to a literal interpretation of accounts of things that were not described as being miracles and yet were impossible. These are NOT two peas in the same pod, but more like a pea and a monkey wrench.

 

[Craigbythesea]

I don't understand why you even call yourself a Christian if the entire bible is a big fairy tale to you. If this is representative of the state of the baptist church on the left-behind coast, then I would start looking out for the big one.

Here on the west coast of the United States we believe that the first eleven chapters of the Book of Genesis make up only a small fraction of the Bible. Indeed, we hold to the Protestant view of the Canon and believe that it includes ALL 50 chapters in Genesis. And not only that, we believe that the Canon includes 65 books in addition to the Book of Genesis. And those of us who have been to school believe that in the Book of Genesis we have several kinds of Hebrew literature, the first 11 chapters being epic literature. But, of course, since our faith is in Christ and His blood atonement on the cross for our sins, and not in an uniformed and inaccurate understanding of Genesis, we are not Christians in the eyes of some non-cognitive individuals.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Topic: Can an Evolutionist be Saved?

Yes. And I know that for a fact from first-hand experience as an evolutionary biologist, although I have not been employed in that field for some many years due to a very radical career change after getting saved. And having served for six years as the senior pastor of a church and now as a teacher of the Bible, I know that evolutionary biology and the Christian faith are respectively a science and a religion that are entirely separate from each other. Whether or not a man is an evolutionist has nothing at all to do with whether or not he is a Christian, or even whether or not he is a conservative, evangelical Christian, for it is entirely possible to be both, albeit an educated and informed conservative, evangelical Christian—not at all a rare commodity on the west coast where it warm enough for our brains to function 365.25 days a year.

 

[Watchman]

Craigbythesea, I am profoundly dissapointed that you cling to human reasoning at the expence of Biblical truth.
Did the flood happen? Jesus testified to it in Matthew 24. There he said all were taken away; you could not have the death of ALL if it were some localized flood.
Could everything fit into the ark? I'll answer with a question: Is anything impossible with God?
If we believe that He is God, He not only did not need the Ronald Reagan, He could have done the same with something no bigger than a rowboat.
As for fresh water fish in salt water and visa-versa, God made the fish, He could make them to survive anything. Did three Hebrews survive a night in a firery furnace?
As for the earth being a very old age, a lot older than when man appeared; while the Genesis account does have that curiosity in saying, "And the earth was void and without form..." One MUST look at every scripture that speaks on a subject. The problem with the old earth theory is the fourth commandment in Exodus 20:11:
"For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
Who wrote that? God Himself.
I have great fear for you and everyone who wants to reduce to allegory great portions of God's Word. I say that like the Apostle Paul said of the Galatians who had fallen into legalism..."I fear for you." Not judgemental, fearful for you. I sincerely fear for you.

 

[Mike Gascoigne]

Originally posted by Johnv:
The C/E arguement notwithstanding, I think you hit the scriptural nail on the head. Regardless of the scriptural topic, one's salvation is not contingent upon "getting everything right" as far as scriptural understanding. Otherwise, we'd have to say that everyone who is KJVO isn't saved, or everyone who thinks that a woman can preach isn't saved, or everyone who thinks women must cover their heads isn't saved, etc etc etc.

There are lots of issues that Christians can disagree about, but the issue of sin and death is something that directly affects our salvation. If someone doesn't understand the connection between sin and death, they don't even know what they have been saved from, so how can they be saved?

Mike

 

[Mike Gascoigne]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
And who would be so ridiculous as to say that when Adam and his wife stepped upon insects and squashed the life out of them that the insects did not die unless they got stepped on after Adam ate the forbidden fruit!

I have dealt with the question of lower life forms in my Impossible Theology. Either they were immortal and indestructible, or else they were mortal but their deaths were inconsequential because they lacked consciousness. The "blessing" on the fifth and sixth days of creation was for both humans and animals, but it would not have meant anything to the lower life forms that lacked consciousness because they would not have known what it means to be "blessed".

Mike

 

[izzaksdad]

CBTS,

As one of my professors at SEBTS was fond of saying, "You, my friend, are a bleeding heart liberal."

It is absolutely heartbreaking that you are teaching your pseudotheology in a church setting. According to your beliefs, Christ's sacrificial death on the cross is up for debate beacause it is not stated as miraculous or supernatural- just detailed as history. CBTS, the greatest miracle in human history was God incarnate on a cruel cross for the sin of humanity. His subsequent, SUPERNATURAL, MIRACULOUS RESURRECTION, validating His power to be Savior and Lord.

May the scales that Satan (if you believe in such a grade school character)has blinded you with be removed quickly.

 

[LadyEagle]

And we all know that the story of Noah’s Ark cannot be a literal,

I just fainted.

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Mike Gascoigne:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
And who would be so ridiculous as to say that when Adam and his wife stepped upon insects and squashed the life out of them that the insects did not die unless they got stepped on after Adam ate the forbidden fruit!

I have dealt with the question of lower life forms in my Impossible Theology. Either they were immortal and indestructible, or else they were mortal but their deaths were inconsequential because they lacked consciousness.
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]But that's pure extra-Biblical speculation! You can't have it both ways: either you argue that everything in the Bible is literally true, in which case you have a six-day creation and an absolutely massive Ark containing ALL species - two or in some cases seven of EVERY KIND - or you don't. The moment you start picking and choosing which species went into the Ark, you depart from the literal reading of Scripture and throw similar doubt on the literal reading of the Genesis 1 & 2 creation accounts.

Oh, and to answer the OP question - yes of course!

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Phillip:
Does that make more sense?

Absolutely.

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
a flute was created from a mammoth's ivory tusk, and therefore, mammoths lived right alongside humans.

I'm not sure what the debate is here. I've never heard or seen anything that says otherwise. If we presume, for a moment, an ancient earth, then the geological, archeological, and fossil evidence dictates that mammoths died out some 10,000 or so years ago, a time when humans were most definitely present.

Perhaps you're under the assumption, in the ancient earth timeline, that mammoths are dinosaur-era animals. They are not. They are contemporary animals, as are the sabre-tooth cat and giant sloth, all of which became extinct rather recently. Again, this is, for the sake of arguement, presuming an ancient earth timeline.

[ December 14, 2004, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

[Johnv]

And we all know that the story of Noah’s Ark cannot be a literal...

I dunno about that. Even if we presume that the "world" in the Flood account is the "local world", that is, the world as was known about at the time of the writing, we will (and we do) find geological evidence that the "known world" underwent deluge conditions several thousand years ago.

 

[lets_reason_toghether]

the question was can an evolutionsist be saved?

Here is my question after seeing comments from people that believe that the new birth is aprocess with several steps.. and it isn't a "creation" but a process. When Christ called Lazurus by name, Lazurus came out. dead now alive. that is type of the new birth...

So many christians state that they deny natural evolution then they state spritural evolution.

just a thought.

Brother larry

 

[LadyEagle]

The Evolution of a Creationist - good read!

 

[Mike Gascoigne]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mike Gascoigne:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
And who would be so ridiculous as to say that when Adam and his wife stepped upon insects and squashed the life out of them that the insects did not die unless they got stepped on after Adam ate the forbidden fruit!

I have dealt with the question of lower life forms in my Impossible Theology. Either they were immortal and indestructible, or else they were mortal but their deaths were inconsequential because they lacked consciousness.
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]But that's pure extra-Biblical speculation! You can't have it both ways: either you argue that everything in the Bible is literally true, in which case you have a six-day creation and an absolutely massive Ark containing ALL species - two or in some cases seven of EVERY KIND - or you don't. The moment you start picking and choosing which species went into the Ark, you depart from the literal reading of Scripture and throw similar doubt on the literal reading of the Genesis 1 & 2 creation accounts.
</font>[/QUOTE]Matt,

This has got nothing to do with the age of the earth or the size of the ark. I'm just trying to answer Craig's question about what would happen if Adam stepped on an ant before the fall.

Mike

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
I am greatly offended to find Baptists teaching this nonsense that is 100% contrary to fact and in so doing bringing a reproach upon the people of God.

Agreeing with God brings reproach to God when it differs from the opinions of men. Many leading evolutionists acknowledge that at the heart of their theory is a set of philosophical assumptions... none of which are provable or falsifiable.

I live in a very academic community and many of my neighbors have earned multiple doctorates from prestigious universities around the world, and at least one of them is a Nobel Prize Laureate.

So when these people disagree with God, God must not mean what He said?

And in my community, and many other communities around the world, the adjective “Baptist” is everyday becoming more and more a pejorative synonym for gross ignorance and cognitive inability.

Sort of like it was in the beginning? When enlightened Catholics and Protestants ruthlessly persecuted our forebearers... who were considered ignorant and stupid. Consequently the Baptist churches in my neighborhood are finding it necessary to remove the descriptive adjective “Baptist” from their buildings, and several have already found it necessary to officially withdraw from their denominations, [/quote][/qb] God's Word says what it says regardless of who finds it necessary to run from the consequences of proclaiming it.

Folks, you are no longer living in the dark ages—this is the 21st century.

And God changed when?

Even the youngest of school children know that the dinosaurs, saber tooth tigers, and hairy mammoths died long before Adam was created.

They know these things? Really? Who observed them? Or are you referring to their indoctrination into the explanations given by those who dogmatically assert that everything must have a naturalistic explanation and that God cannot be a significant part of any legitimate theory of origins.

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by Mike Gascoigne:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Johnv:
The C/E arguement notwithstanding, I think you hit the scriptural nail on the head. Regardless of the scriptural topic, one's salvation is not contingent upon "getting everything right" as far as scriptural understanding. Otherwise, we'd have to say that everyone who is KJVO isn't saved, or everyone who thinks that a woman can preach isn't saved, or everyone who thinks women must cover their heads isn't saved, etc etc etc.

There are lots of issues that Christians can disagree about, but the issue of sin and death is something that directly affects our salvation. If someone doesn't understand the connection between sin and death, they don't even know what they have been saved from, so how can they be saved?

Mike </font>[/QUOTE]A very interesting and scary thought, Mike. Thank you!

 

[Phillip]

Apparently, craig has not been listening to very much news lately. News that many, many evolutionary scientists are starting to back away from the theory in just the last few months.

News that says there HAS to be intelligent design behind our universe and therefore without the theory of evolution the billions of years are NOT a requirement.

You see, if you brain-wash everybody in the world that evolution is fact instead of theory, and work backwards, you have to say that the earth is very, very old, because evolution theory will not work without an old, old earth. Therefore, the two are tied hand in hand.

I guess Job didn't really know what he saw either, did he?