Bingo. And that conclusion is one that best suits the immediate context and historical context. The latter half of the 10th chapter through the end of Hebrews contain many good warnings and exhortations to these Jewish Christians to continue in the truth. Really, that's what the whole book of Hebrews was intended to accomplish: to show that Christ and the new covenant were better than what came before and thus we should continue in them.
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Can ANY Arminian KNOW that Heaven is his home?
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Bingo. And that conclusion is one that best suits the immediate context and historical context. The latter half of the 10th chapter through the end of Hebrews contain many good warnings and exhortations to these Jewish Christians to continue in the truth. Really, that's what the whole book of Hebrews was intended to accomplish: to show that Christ and the new covenant were better than what came before and thus we should continue in them.
thegospelgeek
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If it were a case of simple logic, don't you think Nicodemus would've picked up on that? Jesus was not appealing to his logic, he was appealing to the spirit.
The spirit is the key in this discourse.
Indeed, it is not logical to be born again from a physical perspective, which Nicodemus clearly points out. However, Jesus states it is a necessary requirement to see the kingdom of God.
I submit scripture is the basis for the argument. Jesus compared those born of the Spirit to the wind. There is no way to logically prove this.
The facts we do know are these:
(1) Jesus is God
(2) God cannot lie
(3) Jesus said except a man be born again he Cannot see the kingdom of God
It is logical to conclude based on these deductive arguments, If a person is born again he will see the kingdom of God.
You have tried to point out I have commited a fallacy of confusing cause and effect. Perhaps you could explain yourself further?
Based on the premise that we both believe scripture to be true, and Jesus to be God in the flesh, I do not see a basis for a fallicy. I believe I have put forth a valid and sound argument.
Wow, I can't beleive people can not understand what I said. Listen closly;
My statement is on the mathmatical logic used when someone (I foget who and am too lazy to look it up) stated that since Jesus said that (IF !a THEN !b) is true proves that (IF a THEN b) is also true. This is incorrect logic. a and b are varibles. In the case of John 3 those variables are 'Born Again' and 'see the kingdom of God'.
They said that proves that if one is born again they will see the kingdom of God. I simply say that what Jesus said in John Chapter 3 does not logically prove this statement. IT may or may not be true, but you can not use (IF !a THEN !b) as proof. IT IS ILLOGICAL Any Mathmatician or Computer programmer can tell you that.
example:
IF you do not have 1$ THEN you can not buy a new car. TRUE STATEMENT
IF you have 1$ you can buy a new car. NOT TRUE. You may or may not be able to buy the car depending on how many $$ you have.
Originally Posted by drfuss
This is one of those scriptures that a Christian can get out of it what he takes to it. There have been many innovative interpretations of this scrppture so that people can get out of it what they want it to mean. This includes famous preachers, theologians, etc.
My interpretation is that it was sent to Jews that rejected Judaism by becoming True Christians and were being pressured by the unconverted Jews and family to return to Judaism. It was a warning that if they publically rejected Christ and returned to Judaism, they would find it impossible to be convinced to return to Christ. It does not mean that God would not take them back again, but that it would be impossible to convince them to return to Christianity because they would consider themselves mocking Christ.
I think my interpretation is different that any you listed above.
Bingo. And that conclusion is one that best suits the immediate context and historical context. The latter half of the 10th chapter through the end of Hebrews contain many good warnings and exhortations to these Jewish Christians to continue in the truth. Really, that's what the whole book of Hebrews was intended to accomplish: to show that Christ and the new covenant were better than what came before and thus we should continue in them.
Well, I suppose a person can interpret scripture any way they wish. But both of you seem to believe as Arminians here. You are saying a person can be saved, and then later reject Christ.
There are really only two possibilities with Hebrews 6:4-9.
#1 it is speaking of unsaved, unregenerate persons who reject Christ.
#2 it is speaking of saved, regenerate persons who reject Christ.
Calvinists have great difficulty accepting proposition #1 because the doctrine of Total Depravity does not allow the possibility that an unregenerate person can be enlightened and be a partaker of the Holy Spirit. Arminians on the other hand can allow this.
But... #2 is also unacceptable to Calvinists, because they believe it impossible for a regenerate person to fall away. However, the Arminians can allow this also.
But I am neither Calvinist or Arminian. I believe the unregenerate can be enlightened and be a partaker of the Holy Spirit, but I do not believe once you are saved that you can fall away and be lost.
The Calvinist will say the unregenerate has no ability to be enlightened by the Spirit, but this also limits God. Does God have the power and ability to enlighten the unregenerate?
So, the doctrine of Total Depravity as believed by Calvinists does not simply limit man, it limits God too. It is saying God does not have the power or ability to speak to and enlighten the spiritually dead. But Jesus could speak to the dead.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
But if you insist the unregenerate cannot possibly be enlightened and be a partaker of the Holy Spirit, then you must agree with the Arminians that Heb. 6 is teaching that a regenerate person can fall away and be lost.
And we know this passage is speaking of salvation from verse 9.
Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
No, I agree with Matthew Henry that this passage is speaking of unregenerate persons who have been enlightened and partakers of the Holy Spirit. However, they have not truly trusted Christ. They have tasted, but not eaten.
Matthew Henry was a Calvinist, but he displays Arminian belief here.
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You are wrong because you assume that I believe the people here are warned of falling away eternally. I do not because they are not. They are being warned, as they are elsewhere in the book of Hebrews, of leaving the truth and going to a false system. It has to do with religion not eternity. The people warned are believers in Jesus Christ and members of the gospel church. They are under pressure to leave the church to go back under the law. This is serious business and is being treated as such.
Paul in Galatians does many of the same things. He there warns these Christians are being entangled in a false system. The law system is a system of bondage, the people under its administration are in bondage, whereas the gospel church gives freedom. Paul calls those folks foolish, calls the false teachers that were bringing in damnable heresies bewitchers, and states with utmost urgency the importance of staying in the church and the truth.
Paul in Galatians does many of the same things. He there warns these Christians are being entangled in a false system. The law system is a system of bondage, the people under its administration are in bondage, whereas the gospel church gives freedom. Paul calls those folks foolish, calls the false teachers that were bringing in damnable heresies bewitchers, and states with utmost urgency the importance of staying in the church and the truth.
You are wrong because you assume that I believe the people here are warned of falling away eternally. I do not because they are not.
They are being warned that there is no other gospel or way of salvation other than the New covenant through Christ.
They are being warned, as they are elsewhere in the book of Hebrews, of leaving the truth and going to a false system. It has to do with religion not eternity. The people warned are believers in Jesus Christ and members of the gospel church. They are under pressure to leave the church to go back under the law. This is serious business and is being treated as such.
Whether ALL the audience was considered to have been saved at that time was not the main issue, the main issue was the only gospel through Christ and "here HE is, here is the truth...etc".......
Darren
Wow, that is a very unusual interpretation you both have there, I cannot see how you get that out of this passage. To me it is obvious that it is speaking of persons who have been enlightened and partakers of the Holy Spirit and says if they fall away it will be impossible to renew them to repentance again. And Matthew Henry interpreted it the same.
As I said, I guess a person can interpret scripture to mean anything they want it to mean, but I cannot see how you got your interpretation out of this passage.
1. He shows how far persons may go in religion, and, after all, fall away, and perish for ever, v. 4, 5. (1.) They may be enlightened. Some of the ancients understand this of their being baptized; but it is rather to be understood of notional knowledge and common illumination, of which persons may have a great deal, and yet come short of heaven. Balaam was the man whose eyes were opened (Num. 24:3), and yet with his eyes opened he went down to utter darkness. (2.) They may taste of the heavenly gift, feel something of the efficacy of the Holy Spirit in his operations upon their souls, causing them to taste something of religion, and yet be like persons in the market, who taste of what they will not come up to the price of, and so but take a taste, and leave it. Persons may taste religion, and seem to like it, if they could have it upon easier terms than denying themselves, and taking up their cross, and following Christ. (3.) They may be made partakers of the Holy Ghost, that is, of his extraordinary and miraculous gifts; they may have cast out devils in the name of Christ, and done many other mighty works. Such gifts in the apostolic age were sometimes bestowed upon those who had no true saving grace. (4.) They may taste of the good word of God; they may have some relish of gospel doctrines, may hear the word with pleasure, may remember much of it, and talk well of it, and yet never be cast into the form and mould of it, nor have it dwelling richly in them. (5.) They may have tasted of the powers of the world to come; they may have been under strong impressions concerning heaven, and dread of going to hell. These lengths hypocrites may go, and, after all, turn apostates. Now hence observe, [1.] These great things are spoken here of those who may fall away; yet it is not here said of them that they were truly converted, or that they were justified; there is more in true saving grace than in all that is here said of apostates. [2.] This therefore is no proof of the final apostasy of true saints. These indeed may fall frequently and foully, but yet they will not totally nor finally from God; the purpose and the power of God, the purchase and the prayer of Christ, the promise of the gospel, the everlasting covenant that God has made with them, ordered in all things and sure, the indwelling of the Spirit, and the immortal seed of the word, these are their security. But the tree that has not these roots will not stand.
As I said, I guess a person can interpret scripture to mean anything they want it to mean, but I cannot see how you got your interpretation out of this passage.
Hebrews 6 and Interpretations
Here is what the ESV Study Bible has about the passage
Heb. 6:4–8 This passage has been subject to substantially different interpretations. The central debate concerns whether the descriptions of vv. 4–5 (e.g., “enlightened,” “tasted the heavenly gift,” “shared in the Holy Spirit,” “tasted of the goodness of the word of God”) depict people who were once true Christians.
(1) Some argue these phrases do describe true Christians, implying that Christians can “fall away” and lose their salvation (cf. note on 3:14, however, indicating a fundamental difficulty with this view). Nonetheless, most who advocate this view hold that some who backslide can still return to Christian faith, thus limiting 6:4–6 to hardened cases of apostasy in which it is “impossible … to restore them again to repentance” (vv. 4, 6).
(2) Most argue, however, that although these people may have participated fully in the Christian covenantal community (where they experienced enlightened instruction in the Word of God, where they saw public repentance occur, and where the Holy Spirit was at work in powerful ways), when such people do “fall away” it is clear that they are not true Christians because they have not made a true, saving response to the gospel, resulting in genuine faith, love, and perseverance (vv. 9–12). Significantly, they are like land that received much rain but bore no good fruit, only “thorns and thistles” (v. 8). They may have participated outwardly in the Christian community and they even may have shared in the blessings of Christian fellowship; but, like the seed that fell on rocky ground in the parable of the sower, “they have no root” (Mark 4:17) and they “fall away” when faced with persecution.
(3) Another view is that the warnings are addressed to true believers, and though they will never completely fall away, the warnings are still the means that God uses to challenge them to persevere in their faith and so to preserve those whom the Lord has chosen.
(4) A fourth view is that the “falling away” described in Heb. 6:6 has to do with loss of heavenly rewards. In any case, though the author recognizes that there may be a few in the congregation who fit the description of vv. 4–8, in general he does not think it to be true as a whole of the congregation to which he is writing, for he says, “yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation” (v. 9).
Here is what the ESV Study Bible has about the passage
Heb. 6:4–8 This passage has been subject to substantially different interpretations. The central debate concerns whether the descriptions of vv. 4–5 (e.g., “enlightened,” “tasted the heavenly gift,” “shared in the Holy Spirit,” “tasted of the goodness of the word of God”) depict people who were once true Christians.
(1) Some argue these phrases do describe true Christians, implying that Christians can “fall away” and lose their salvation (cf. note on 3:14, however, indicating a fundamental difficulty with this view). Nonetheless, most who advocate this view hold that some who backslide can still return to Christian faith, thus limiting 6:4–6 to hardened cases of apostasy in which it is “impossible … to restore them again to repentance” (vv. 4, 6).
(2) Most argue, however, that although these people may have participated fully in the Christian covenantal community (where they experienced enlightened instruction in the Word of God, where they saw public repentance occur, and where the Holy Spirit was at work in powerful ways), when such people do “fall away” it is clear that they are not true Christians because they have not made a true, saving response to the gospel, resulting in genuine faith, love, and perseverance (vv. 9–12). Significantly, they are like land that received much rain but bore no good fruit, only “thorns and thistles” (v. 8). They may have participated outwardly in the Christian community and they even may have shared in the blessings of Christian fellowship; but, like the seed that fell on rocky ground in the parable of the sower, “they have no root” (Mark 4:17) and they “fall away” when faced with persecution.
(3) Another view is that the warnings are addressed to true believers, and though they will never completely fall away, the warnings are still the means that God uses to challenge them to persevere in their faith and so to preserve those whom the Lord has chosen.
(4) A fourth view is that the “falling away” described in Heb. 6:6 has to do with loss of heavenly rewards. In any case, though the author recognizes that there may be a few in the congregation who fit the description of vv. 4–8, in general he does not think it to be true as a whole of the congregation to which he is writing, for he says, “yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation” (v. 9).
Wow, that is a very unusual interpretation you both have there, I cannot see how you get that out of this passage. To me it is obvious that it is speaking of persons who have been enlightened and partakers of the Holy Spirit and says if they fall away it will be impossible to renew them to repentance again.
Are assuming that "falling away" actually means to be eternally lost or cast out of heaven or loss of salvation? One big IF is that it is problematic at the least to think that the Blood Atonement will actually fail therefore it cannot be "reapplied". You would have to crucify Christ again which is not possible, once for all, you can only be atoned for once... I'm thinking the issue has nothing to do with loss of salvation because the point raised by the author (most likely Paul) cannot occur. Unless there is other verses in scripture to cross-reference that falling away is a real matter and any such that do fall away cannot be saved again..
6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Darren
As I said, I guess a person can interpret scripture to mean anything they want it to mean, but I cannot see how you got your interpretation out of this passage.
That's a little insulting... Especially when people are trying to explain their position just the same as you do yourself.
Darren
I'm thinking the issue has nothing to do with loss of salvation because the point raised by the author (most likely Paul) cannot occur.
So, you think the author (probably Paul) is going to all this trouble to warn people against something that is impossible? Does that really make sense? Why write a passage that would cause people to worry and doubt when Paul wants someone to be sure? Why not just say it is impossible to fall?
I have seen this argument before, but it is very weak.
So, you think the author (probably Paul) is going to all this trouble to warn people against something that is impossible? Does that really make sense? Why write a passage that would cause people to worry and doubt when Paul wants someone to be sure? Why not just say it is impossible to fall?
I have seen this argument before, but it is very weak.
It is weak because you have taken what I said out of context. The whole point as far as I'm concerned is to reason that there is no other way of salvation especially the old covenant. Therefore there is no salvation unless through Christ and His blood. If you would think that I receive His blood atonement one day, try it out and then "fall away" to the effect that the blood atonement has no effect it would be thought of as an impossible situation, firstly to be renewed to be Atoned for again (not possible) secondly to think that the Atonement failed the first time round (not possible). You think that's a waste of time to explain? I don't...
The Hebrew christians were struggling in their faith towards Christ and were thinking of going back to the old covenant, this was part of that reasoning to show how God is no longer using the old covenant and that the Atoning Blood of Christ (and His resurrection) finalises the law and no further sacrifices can be made. Makes perfect sense.
Darren
But I am neither Calvinist or Arminian. I believe the unregenerate can be enlightened and be a partaker of the Holy Spirit, but I do not believe once you are saved that you can fall away and be lost.
Just for the record I think what you are saying is that "fall away" means that a person whom is "almost saved" (once enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, partakers of the Holy Ghost, tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come) that "falls away" from their being almost saved cannot be redeemed ever, since they crucify for themselves the Son of God afresh and put Him to an open shame.... They were in effect "not saved" but eventually reached a state that they could never be saved because they fall away from that.
Is that your position??
Darren
Just for the record I think what you are saying is that "fall away" means that a person whom is "almost saved" (once enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, partakers of the Holy Ghost, tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come) that "falls away" from their being almost saved cannot be redeemed ever, since they crucify for themselves the Son of God afresh and put Him to an open shame.... They were in effect "not saved" but eventually reached a state that they could never be saved because they fall away from that.
Is that your position??
Darren
Well, what does it actually say is impossible? It says it is impossible to "renew them again unto repentance".
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
I believe this is a person who fully understands that they are a sinner, and they understand that Jesus died for them, and that they need to trust Jesus. They have been brought to repentance.
I personally believe if a person rejects Jesus at this point they will be hardened. They will never again approach this level of conviction or repentance. This is why it says several times in Hebrews that if you today hear his voice, harden not your heart.
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
I believe this is crossing the line with God, as shown in Romans 1.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
There are really numerous verses like this.
2 Thess 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
These are persons who know they should trust Jesus, but because of a love of sin reject him. At some point that only God knows, he gives them up, he does not strive with them any longer. He actually gives them what they desire and allows them to believe a lie.
This is what I think Hebrews 6 is speaking of also.
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Drfuss,
It is illogical to accept the uncertainty in one side of the issue, but deny a similar uncertainty on the other side of the issue.
Drfuss,
I appreciate you lingering in the debate as I requested. I know you did not have to and find you to be an upstanding person for doing so.
But Calvinism simply does not teach ANYTHING that would cause a true believer to wonder if he is going to make it to heaven. There is nothing that creates uncertainty about a belief that says that Almighty God does all the saving and keeping. The true Christian does not base his salvation on this idea of waiting to the end to see if he made it which tells him whether or not he was ever truly saved. He bases it on the promises of God and the evidences listed in I John and elsewhere. Therefore, he KNOWS that he is saved and will stay saved. But Calvinism is not what this thread is about.
And I have known for 15 years that many FWB's do not like the term "lose salvation". If you prefer the term "forfeit" I'll try to use that.
Here is what the FWB treatise says:
There are strong grounds to hope that the truly
regenerate will persevere unto the end, and be saved,
through the power of divine grace which is pledged
for their support;127 but their future obedience and
final salvation are neither determined nor certain,
since through infirmity and manifold temptations
they are in danger of falling;128 and they ought, therefore,
to watch and pray lest they make shipwreck of
their faith and be lost.
Do you agree that no Arminian should, under ethical and intellectually honest concerns, promise his converts that coming to Christ will save them from a future hell and get them to heaven one day- since his belief system really does not promise that at all?
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That is the worst kind of comparison I have ever heard and again it illustrates my point how theological systems can become so unbiblical when it is presented in untheological terms.
Darren
No it's not Darren.
If it is possible for me to fail to arrive at a place then I can not KNOW that I will make it. There is certainly nothing wrong with that logic. Frankly, to deny the logic of it is really- illogical.
What are "untheological" terms?? Should I just type the word "soteriology" repeatedly or can I use articles and verbs and phrases and illustrations?
I actually find your post slightly insulting. I might be overreacting but I cannot see how inflammatory terminolgy like "that's the worst I ever heard" aid the dialogue.
It made me tempted to say that your post was the worst argument against another's post I have ever heard. But I digress.
Well, you and Luke keep speaking of Arminians. To most Calvinists, anyone who is not a Calvinist must be an Arminian. That is not so.
I believe in freewill, in this respect I am in agreement with Arminians. I do not believe in Limited Atonement, in this respect I am in agreement with Arminians also. But Arminians generally believe in perserverance of the saints. This is where I and many others disagree with Arminians.
Saying that you will persevere is just another way of saying you keep your own salvation. You can argue that, but the word persevere is defined as meaning to persist or maintain some act. That is what persevere means.
No, I believe in preservation of the saints. I am kept by Jesus, not by perservering.
.
Yes. And I absolutely do not intend to sound sarcastic (unfortunately typing does not always reveal the true tone of the author) but that makes you four-fifth's Arminian.
You can certainly reject the label (as I would expect anyone who believes that God does the saving and keeping would) but the Calvinist is going to think of you as being very Arminian. Yet, you are not what I am referring to as Arminian at all as I made clear in the OP. I am referring exclusively to this tenet that teaches that one can and may lose (forfeit or whatever) his salvation.
Well, what does it actually say is impossible? It says it is impossible to "renew them again unto repentance".
I believe this is a person who fully understands that they are a sinner, and they understand that Jesus died for them, and that they need to trust Jesus. They have been brought to repentance.
I personally believe if a person rejects Jesus at this point they will be hardened. They will never again approach this level of conviction or repentance. This is why it says several times in Hebrews that if you today hear his voice, harden not your heart.
These are persons who know they should trust Jesus, but because of a love of sin reject him. At some point that only God knows, he gives them up, he does not strive with them any longer. He actually gives them what they desire and allows them to believe a lie.
This is what I think Hebrews 6 is speaking of also.
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Obviously 6:4 is refering to another group not the direct audience -
6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
However that doesn't mean that the people that were irredeemable arrived there because they were almost saved and then had fallen away. I think the second problem you would have to come to is to show how a person can almost be saved to that effect. I can't agree that 6:4-6 is conclusive to support your conclusion.
For example how can you say a person is regenerated after they believe but not before but then be able to be - once enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, partakers of the Holy Ghost, tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come. They can experience partial spiritual experiences, even be a partaker of the Holy Spirit (does that mean indwelling??) yet do this as an unregenerate sinner?? Seems you are adding a further problem to the context in my opinion kind of like propositional isogesis.
Darren
I heard an old, old sermon once and have always followed that man's explanation, something as simple as, if it was possible to "fall away" so that you are as unsaved as before you were saved (reversing everything God did for you) it would be impossible to think you could be saved again via the sacrifice of Christ (His blood) as you can only accept it once for all. Best explanation I ever heard and one that I've always held to....
Therefore it would be impossible to be renewed to repentance again...
Those that teach they can lose their salvation also teach they can be re-saved again, totally baloney...
Darren
Yes. This is the right interpretation. Being enlightened and tasting of the heavenly gift and partnering with the Holy Spirit are all things sinners experience while under conviction. If they come as far toward Christ as Hebrews 6 articulates and turn back they are apostates. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to turn...
No it's not Darren.
If it is possible for me to fail to arrive at a place then I can not KNOW that I will make it. There is certainly nothing wrong with that logic. Frankly, to deny the logic of it is really- illogical.
Ok I believe in going to Walmart, I also believe that if I die along the way to driving to Walmart I would not make it to Walmart. I died along the way, I woke up at Walmart. That seems illogical? Of course and comparing heaven to Walmart is equally illogical as being saved by grace through faith is likened to driving to a destination via a car.
What are "untheological" terms?? Should I just type the word "soteriology" repeatedly or can I use articles and verbs and phrases and illustrations?
I'm merely saying that taking a word built from layers of doctrine and use the word as purely generic grammar would be un-theological. You would no longer be refering to the doctrines involved for "salvation" (soteriology) in the use and quotations with the word salvation or saved.
I actually find your post slightly insulting. I might be overreacting but I cannot see how inflammatory terminolgy like "that's the worst I ever heard" aid the dialogue.
Sorry. It still is though, no insult intented.
Darren
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Obviously 6:4 is refering to another group not the direct audience -
6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
However that doesn't mean that the people that were irredeemable arrived there because they were almost saved and then had fallen away. I think the second problem you would have to come to is to show how a person can almost be saved to that effect. I can't agree that 6:4-6 is conclusive to support your conclusion.
For example how can you say a person is regenerated after they believe but not before but then be able to be - once enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, partakers of the Holy Ghost, tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come. They can experience partial spiritual experiences, even be a partaker of the Holy Spirit (does that mean indwelling??) yet do this as an unregenerate sinner?? Seems you are adding a further problem to the context in my opinion kind of like propositional isogesis.
Darren
Regeneration occurs before the new birth as Christ illustrates with the parable of the seeds and soils. This occurs in nature as well with conception and life taking place prior to birth.
Many are the spiritually still born- those who sprouted, lived but never were truly born again. Many warnings in Hebrews are directed to those not yet saved to continue in the word lest they draw back unto perdition.
This is what Jesus refers to in John 8 when he said of those who were believing on him- If you continue in my word then are you my disciples indeed and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.
Hebrews 6 warns those under conviction, being drawn toward Christ to continue because if they fall having come so close then it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance.
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