Can anybody prove?

[DHK]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura:
Have you not noticed that the apostle Paul is the one who said it was an argument from silence?

I think that Paul knew the Old Testament a whole lot better than you. He was stating what the Old Testament taught. No one could be a priest but those who had descended from Aaron. The Scripture is plain on this teaching, and Paul was reinforcing the same. I think that these Christians, having a Jewish background, knew what Paul was talking about. You are reading into Scripture something that is not there, and trying to make an argument from silence, which is quite ridiculous.
DHK

 

[Frank]

Sola:
Correct me if I am wrong, But didn't Jesus always appeal to that which is written for what was to be taught and practiced. Luke 24: 44-51. Mat. 4:4,7,10 and a host of other passages. If so,should we not follow our perfect example?

 

[SolaScriptura]

You're right, we should follow Jesus. The question I have is this: Why didn't the apostles write up a creed or confession if such a thing is so important? Someone might respond that the Apostle's wrote the Apostle's creed (which is doubtful) but even if they did, why did the Nicean and Anathasian creeds need to be written? Furthermore, I wonder why Paul never used the term 'original sin' since many allege that he taught such a doctrine.

 

[DHK]

INTERNATIONAL CHURCHES OF CHRIST
http://www.icoc.org/icocmain/whatwebelieve/believe.htm

What We Believe

There is one true God who reveals himself to the world as The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. (Matthew 28:19)

Jesus, the Son of God, is our one and only Lord and Savior, crucified for our sins and physically resurrected from the dead on the third day. (John 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15)

The Bible is the only written message of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit and without error. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17; 2 Peter 1:19-21)

A person is saved by the grace of God and the blood of Jesus Christ. A person must, through faith and obedience, reach out to receive this free gift of salvation. (Ephesians 1:1-10; James 2:14-26)

As with the first Christians, when a person repents and is baptized their sins are forgiven and the Holy Spirit begins to work in their life. (Acts 2:36-41; Romans 8:5-11)

Only baptized disciples are members of Christ's Church. (1 Corinthians 12:12-13)

After baptism every new Christian needs to be taught or "discipled" by another Christian to obey all of Jesus' teachings (Matthew 28:20).

Every disciple must be committed to the vision of making disciples of all nations. (Matthew 28:18-20)

Looks like a creed to me.
DHK

 

[Carson Weber]

The question I have is this: Why didn't the apostles write up a creed or confession if such a thing is so important?

Who says that they didn't? They very well may have. But, of course, since you limit all that the apostles did and said to the text of the very limited New Testament, they didn't.. did they?

but even if they did, why did the Nicean and Anathasian creeds need to be written?

To refute the Arians, of course. Is Jesus created or uncreated? Paul tells us that he's the firstborn of all creation. Paul must be an Arian, right?

Furthermore, I wonder why Paul never used the term 'original sin' since many allege that he taught such a doctrine.

I also wonder why he didn't use the term 'Trinity' since many allege that he taught such a doctrine.

God bless,

Carson

[ August 01, 2002, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

[Frank]

dhk:
Creeds are unauthorized. What is your point with your last post. I do not follow man made creeds no matter who makes them. What is your point?

 

[Carson Weber]

That begs the question Frank: What is authorized? Who has authorization? Cf. Mt. 16:16-18; 18:18.

Jesus gave Peter and the other apostles authorization. These authorized men authorized other men. My bishop has this authorization. We call it apostolic authority. You don't have this authority, given to men by God, in your sect. What is a man to do? Submit to authority.

[ August 01, 2002, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Frank:
dhk:
Creeds are unauthorized. What is your point with your last post. I do not follow man made creeds no matter who makes them. What is your point?

The point is that you DO follow a creed, authorized by the Churches of Christ, in spite of your boasting on this board that you do not. Point by point, that is exactly what you believe and what you have defended, even though some of those points are not taught in the Bible. You go by a Creed, the Creed of the COC, not the Bible. In this entire argument you have been hypocritical.

 

[Johnv]

I guess it doesn't really matter, since Jesus did not come to organize a new religion. He came to give birth to a new faith. What we did that that faith over the last two thousand years is our own making.

The Roman Catholic Church makes the biggest claim to lineage, but the truth is that the early churches did not evolve into what we now know as the RCC until much later. I think that, when others have split from the RCC over the years, most notably the Protestant Reformation, there's nothing wrong with taking some of that history with you.

 

[Frank]

dhk:
I follow no man made creed. I follow the New Testament and it alone. You have posted the creed of a group who was a part of the old Boston movement. They bind that whcih is not bound by God on their membership. I am not a part of them nor do I intend on being such. The phrase discipled is from their mind not God's. God never said one had to have a discipler or mentor teacher he must follow and obey. There is no authority from Christ on this. Therefore,it is the creed of men.

 

[Frank]

Carson:
Your bishop has NO AUTHORITY. He does not have the credentials of an apostle. II Cor. 12:12. He has had no hands laid on him by the apostles and therefore, could not prove he has any authority. Acts 8:18. God never promised modern day successors. He promised ALL TRUTH to the 12. John 16:13. Peter anticipated no successor. II Peter 1:13-15. There are 12 thrones judging the tribes of Israel. Mat. 19:28. There are 12 thrones in heaven. Rev. 21:14. It appears by the evidence of inspiration you are simply in error.
If your bishop has the same authority as the apostles of Christ, he has what they had, and can do what they did. However, He does not have what they had because he cannot do what they did. If you say that the credentials of the office have changed. I would like to know WHO CHANGED IT? BOOK CHAPTER AND VERSE.
The Lord's church has the all sufficient word of God has her authority. It is from Christ. We do not subscribe to 1.pope 2. magisterium. 3, tradition. 4. Bible. There is no such authorization to follow such. Mat. 28:18-20.
The Lord's church has elders and deacons as per I Tim. 3:1-11 and Titus 1:4-9. These men lead by example and teach the New Testament of Christ.
I need to follow the word and example of the apostles of the first century church. Acts 2:42. I am to hear the apostles,not the pope, bishop, or magisterium. I Jn. 4:6 says." we are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth and the spirit of error."

 

[SolaScriptura]

DHK:

Did you notice the "INTERNATIONAL" at the beginning of your post? Think about that for a second.

Furthermore, the Nicean creed didn't stop the Arians - it was the mass murder at the end of the council that did that if I'm not mistaken.

[ August 01, 2002, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Frank:
dhk:
I follow no man made creed. I follow the New Testament and it alone. You have posted the creed of a group who was a part of the old Boston movement. They bind that whcih is not bound by God on their membership. I am not a part of them nor do I intend on being such. The phrase discipled is from their mind not God's. God never said one had to have a discipler or mentor teacher he must follow and obey. There is no authority from Christ on this. Therefore,it is the creed of men.

But the mainline Churches of Christ do have a very similar statement of faith, which your church also follows do they not? Is that the only article in this statement/creed that you do not agree with, or are there others? It seems that you have been defending fairly vigorously the other points stated therein.

On another point I did ask you about the translation of Mat.28:19,20.
"Go and teach all nations..."
Many of the modern versions translate "teach" "disciple." Why would that be?
DHK

 

[SolaScriptura]

But the mainline Churches of Christ do have a very similar statement of faith...

I certainly don't have any idea what you're talking about.

And on the translation of Mt 28 about "disciple" vs "teach," you obviously don't know what the ICC means when THEY say "disciple" - it's completely different than the normal meaning of the word. It's a kinda of hierarchy that's worse than the one in the RCC. Basically in the ICC, if you convert someone you get to boss them around (and not just in spiritual matters). If they were in college you could tell them what classes to take, if they're married you can tell them how often they can sleep with their wife, it's nuts.

[ August 01, 2002, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura:

And on the translation of Mt 28 about "disciple" vs "teach," you obviously don't know what the ICC means when THEY say "disciple" - it's completely different than the normal meaning of the word. It's a kinda of hierarchy that's worse than the one in the RCC. Basically in the ICC, if you convert someone you get to boss them around (and not just in spiritual matters). If they were in college you could tell them what classes to take, if they're married you can tell them how often they can sleep with their wife, it's nuts.

Sola,
My question on Mat.28:19, was related to the Great Commission, and was asked long before the discussion about the ICC or COC ever began. It has nothing to do with it.
DHK

 

[Frank]

dhk:
I believe all the Bible. I believe and practice the things written therein. I do not call living faithfully to, and teachhng al things commanded in the New Testament of Jesus Christ following a creed. The term creed as used in the spiritual sense is a construct of the mind of man. It promotes the idea of divisiveness because it goes beyond that which is written. I Cor. 4:6.

I do not need a man to meet with others and say, Ok let's make a creed so all will know what we believe.

Please, do not miss this. Christ has already told me all I need to know and teach and observe. ALL means ALL. It eliminates any additions, subtractions,etc. This is exactly what Mat. 28:18-20 teaches me, unless someone has changed the meaning of all !!

In view of these facts from heaven, creeds are a useless waste of time and energy. Therefore, I personally do not spend a lot of time and energy studying them.

I prefer to simply study, teach and follow the all- sufficient word of God, no more no less. The church functioned just fine without creeds in the first century. Acts 2:42.

 

[DHK]

Frank,
Inadvertently, whether you have realized it or not, you have made your own creed:

I am a member of the church of Christ.( Acts 2:47, Mat. 16:18,Roms. 16:16). While I do not presume to speak for every congregation of the church, I will speak as directed by the Bible as it pertains to your concerns.
First, The church uses many translations of the Bible. Most use the King James , not the NIV.
Second, our congregation is very friendly. We seek out the lost and go into our community as directed by Mk. 16:15.
Third, Sin separates men from God. Isaiah 59:1,2. It culminates in spiritual and everlasting death.Romans 6:23. The Bible does teach us to live Godly and separate from a sinful lifestyle. Titus 2:12, II Cor 6:16,17.
Fourth,the church believes both the old and new testament are inspired of God. II Tim. 3:16,17. We study the Old testament so that through patience and comfort of the scriptures we might have hope. Roms.15:4.
Fifth, Christians are to teach all things that are authorized by Jesus Christ. Mat. 28:18-20.
Sixth, the gospel of Jesus Christ saves all men who believe it. Romans 1:16,17, I Cor. 4:15, Mk. 1:15.
Seventh,we preach not ourselves but Christ Jesus the Lord and ourselves his servants for your sake. II Cor. 4:5.
I could not understand some of the post. If you would, clarify them so I might understand your knowledge.
Frank

The Bible teaches there is one church. Acts 2:47, Col. 1:18, Eph.1:22,23 and a host of other passages. In each passage the article the is a definitive one. It simply means one of a kind, unique.
Furthermore, the Bible identifies the owner of the church. The church belongs to Christ. Mat. 16:18. Thus, the church of christ. Romans 16:16.
The name describes to whom the church belongs.
The Bible also teaches us the purchaser and the price of possession. Acts 20:28. Again, the descriptive term the church of Christ.
The Bible provides us with the head of the church. Col. 1:18. Again, the name the church of Christ. The name reflects proper respect for the head.
The Bible teaches us who has the authority in the church to commmand and teach ALL THINGS. Mat. 28:1-20. The descriptive term church of Christ provides honor to the king of Kings who has ALL authority.
Those who are purchased by his blood honor the savior by wearing his name. Acts 11:26, Isaiah 62:2, Isaiah 56:5.He does not share his glorious name with anyone. Isaiah 48:11.
Finally, the church does belong and is his church. Col. 1:12,13, Mat. 19:23,24;8:11;16:18 Luke 8:11-15.
Yes, the church found in the pages of inspiration is the church of Christ.
This is the church of which I am a member. Acts 2:47
Frank
DHK

 

[Frank]

dhk:
A disciple is a one who learns and follows Christ. Let the Bible define it for you. In John 8:31,32, Jesus said," If ye continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed. And ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.
The word of Christ by his command in all thhigs to be taught, learned and observd makes one a disciple. The great commission requires these things be done. How? by teaching whatsoever I have commanded you. Mat. 28:20.

 

[Frank]

dhk:
My post was one identifying the church of the Bible. One cannot identify or know the truth without the word. Jn. 17:17, Jn. 8:32. CREEDS are MAN MADE. The Bible is from God. For one to state what the Bible says and post it is simply giving an answer as we are commanded. I Pet. 3:15.
I used the Bible and it only to state what I believe and practice. I did not refer to any thing from ANY MAN. The presentation was from the Bible using my personal vocabulary. This is called by the inspired word of God CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH. Jude 3.
You have made a statement without proof. If what I presented was from a man made council,synod, or convention please produce it!
Let me repeat this for the hard of hearing. The New Testament and it ALONE is my guide in all that I teach and practice. WHY? BECAUSE CHRIST COMMANDED IT TO BE SUCH!. Mat. 28:18-20. Notice these verses require the following:
1. Recognition of Christ as Authority in ALL Matters.
2. Teaching the complete will of God by his AUTHORITY. Not some of it, not part of it, not any additions or subtractions or going beyond that which is written.
3. Observing ALL things he has commanded unitl the end of time.
4. This commandment is to ALL Men for all time.
I have affirmed this over and over. WHY? Christ commanded it. He and he alone.
Creeds require other sources,authoriities, teachings. If not, they would be the New Testament. There is a difference in creeds of men and the New Testament. I choose the New Testament. Some choose creeds.

 

[DHK]

But in the aforementioned post you laid out your creed, that which you believe, that which you claim to be from the Bible alone. Is that not what any Creed seeks to do: lays out from the Bible what they believe. It is the exact same thing that you have done. Your words are just as man-made as other creeds.
DHK