Hmm, they believed Jesus is the Christ (Meshiach) come in the flesh, and you don't (according to your own words).
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Can anyone please explain this passage?
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Lol, talking to yourself now?...
What has it been 5 hours and you respond to something that was not addressed to you. If that is funny you are easily amused. Why don't you answer my question? Who is the liar?
Oh, you are one of those, that twist anything to your favor.
You are not confused but deceptive to the point of being funny. How did I mix anything circumcision? You did.
What do you mean "Jesus" replaced the Sabbath with his rest. "I will give you rest" means it is replaced. You are just putting words up so that anyone following will think you know what you are talking about. How does that replace a commandment? If Hebrews says there remains a Sabbath rest how is it replaced?
GoodTidings
Well-Known Member
Are you talking to me or kyredneck, since you quoted both of us?
You are conflating two concepts together. Forgiveness/redemption is not eternal life/heaven.
I. "Eternal Life" and the "forgiveness of sins" are not the same concept.
A critical disconnect with Christian theology is that it confuses "eternal life" with the "forgiveness of sins". We need to access concepts as they actually are, not the way we have been taught they are.
When we receive the “forgiveness of sins” by confessing belief in the Blood Atonement of Ahashua HaMashiach, we are returned to the state of Adam before he sinned. We are “made righteous” once again in Eloah’s eyes, that is, our spirit is renewed/restored and we receive the Ruach HaKodosh.
However, this confession does not automatically guarantee “eternal life”.
Once your spirit has been restored, you are now a new creature (2 Cor 5:17), and your mission is to walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh (Rom 8:1). This is the path to “eternal life”, by overcoming the flesh and following the Spirit. It is not “a gift”; you must strive to attain it.
II. Scriptural Evidence - Grace
The following scriptures will show that "forgiveness of sins" is by unmerited grace; "eternal life" is by personal striving.
Matthew 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."
Acts 10:43 "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."
Romans 3:25 "Whom AHYH hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of AHYH;"
Ephesians 1:7 "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"
Colossians 1:14 "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:"
III. Scriptural Evidence - Obedience
ETERNAL LIFE IS BASED ON WHAT YOU DO AFTER BEING FORGIVEN/CLEANSED:
Matthew 19:16 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, AHYH: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
The Scriptures say AHYH cannot lie (Titus 1:2). The above verse is true. Let AHYH be true and every man a liar. Man is subject to misinterpretation but the Word is infallible.
Hebrews 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"
Romans 2:7 "To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for esteem and honor and immortality, eternal life:"
1 John 2:24 "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning (Torah). If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life."
Romans 6:22 "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to AHYH, ye have your fruit unto set-apartness, and the end everlasting life."
Luke 13:24 "strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able."
Galatians 6:8 "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."
Matthew 10:22 "…he that endures to the end the same shall be saved"
Revelation 3:4-6 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his agents. 6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the assemblies.
Please show me a verse that states ETERNAL LIFE is attained by confession or believing.
AHYH’s will is for man to love HIM and his neighbor. Because we cannot of ourselves do it consistently does not change the fact --- that is what He wants. We are to strive to keep His Torah, when we sin we are to confess and repent and keep striving. This is what the overcomers of Revelation 2-3 do. The goal is to live as Messiah lived.
I thought it was kyredneck
You said (and I quote) "I would not adhere to anything that came out of the Council of Nicaea"
I did not twist a thing but challenged your fallacious statement above.
Or did you fail to read that this Forum is a DEBATE forum in which challenges are perfectly acceptable?
Yes I often play the Grand Inquisitor (I would say devil's advocate but someone else freaked out when I called myself that because I identified with the devil)
yes in fact you did by innuendo.
Ah, I caught you in your own machinations. you FIRST used the word "replace" in post number 33 (and I quote)
"Messiah replaced the Levitical priesthood. 1John 1:9"
I was simply applying your flawed logic and reasoning elsewhere concerning the Law (Sabbath Keeping) to point out your confusion concerning bible hermeneutics.
He also said
Mat 19:16-17 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
If this is true? keep the commandments
GoodTidings
Well-Known Member
No, I am not. I know the difference between being forgiven and having eternal life.
Can you cite a single statement from a mainstream theologian/Christian Bible teacher that confuses those two concepts?
This is not true. First of all "Ahashuah" is a made up Name that does not exist in Hebrew. Not a major point, but that is simply not His Name.
Secondly, no place in the Bible does it say anything remotely close to the notion that we are returned to pre-fallen state when we are forgiven. That idea does not exist anywhere in the Bible. We are not made righteous. Righteousness is imputed to us, just as it was to Abraham, per Romans chapter 4: "
He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. (Rom 4:20-25)
We have been justified there in v. 25, but also: Rom. 3:24, 28; 4:2; 5:1, 9; 8;30, Gal. 2:16; Tit. 3:7. The word Justified or Justification comes from a Greek word that speaks to a legal state. We are placed in legal right standing with God. This is imputed righteousness. We will one day be made righteous, that is the end result, but it is not the current state of the believer. Right now, we are simply in legal right standing with God through our faith in Jesus Christ.
The moment you place your faith in Jesus, you are saved. Eternal life begins the very moment you are saved.
Wrong. The Bible says it is a gift: Rom. 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
You are quoting that passage out of the context of the story. Jesus was not presenting the man with a theology. He was testing the man and exposing his real problem, namely that he loved his riches more than he loved God. Jesus knew what is response would be, that he kept the commandments. But Jesus said that he lacked something. Jesus exposed his real problem when he told him to sell his riches deny himself and follow Him. The man could not. Jesus pretty much showed that the man did not have eternal life because he was possessed of his riches and could not sacrifice them to be a follower of Jesus. That was a Torah observant man, a man who obeyed God. Jesus didn't challenge him on that point. He showed that the man would not enter the Kingdom due to his obsession with wealth.
As we can see in your errant interpretations.
But obedience always follows faith, not the other way around. Those who reject Christ do not obey Him. But those whose faith is genuine reveal that genuine faith by their obedience. The point is that those who obey Him do so as a result of the salvation/eternal life they have already received and it is they who obey Him. Those who have eternal demonstrate it by their obedience to the Lord. The verse does NOT say that He is the author of salvation to them who obey Him on the grounds of their obedience. You are reading something into that verse that is not there.
Again, this is not salvation by works, but rather works that reveal the character and worldview of the believer who is always captivated by an eternal perspective. They are seeking, not working for glory, honor, immortality, and eternal life. They are living these things out as principles in their life. They animate their Christian walk.
.
But that "if" in Greek is what we call a "first class conditional clause." It is understood as, "If this is true (and I’m assuming it is), then this will happen. This verse is not an example of eternal life that is conditional upon obedience, at all. It is the opposite. He remains in us because salvation is Jesus keeping us, not us trying to hold on to Him.
If salvation is conditional on my obedience, that makes me the savior, not Jesus. It means that salvation is really about me saving myself, and that makes Jesus' sacrifice not only insufficient, but wholly unnecessary.
Response Continued in the Next Post
GoodTidings
Well-Known Member
Conintued from Previous Post:
Again, this verse says the very opposite of what you are trying to assign to it. Paul makes the point that now that we are free from sin, we are free to be servants of the Lord and it will bear fruit. The everlasting life it is referring to is a reference to the fullness of eternal life that we have not received because we have not received the fullness of our inheritance yet. There is much more to the gift of eternal life that is awaiting us and that is why we live with an eternal perspective and why our works are the result in the promise of what is to come.
abundant life. Paul is not looking at eternity, but our life in the here and now.
According to John, who also wrote Revelation, the one who overcomes is the one who puts their faith in Jesus. And Jesus says to the one who overcomes, that He will not, no, not ever, blot his name from the book of life. That is a promise of the guarantee of salvation by faith, not by works.
I never said it was by confession or believing. I said it was by grace through faith. Eph. 2: 8,9 says, "
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Salvation/eternal life is, from start to finish, a work of God and He alone gets the glory for it. If it is based on our obedience, then we take some of the credit, if not all of it. That's not how it works. The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith and NOT by works.
Again, this verse says the very opposite of what you are trying to assign to it. Paul makes the point that now that we are free from sin, we are free to be servants of the Lord and it will bear fruit. The everlasting life it is referring to is a reference to the fullness of eternal life that we have not received because we have not received the fullness of our inheritance yet. There is much more to the gift of eternal life that is awaiting us and that is why we live with an eternal perspective and why our works are the result in the promise of what is to come.
Striving to enter the strait gait is not striving for eternal life because the strait gate is not a metaphor for eternal life. Jesus is talking about the difficulty of living the Christian life due to the cost incurred due to what we often have to give up, sacrifice to do so. So often, it is the respect of our friends, the love of some family members, or we have to be willing to give up our pride and love for the things of the world. There is a cost associated with Jesus and it is not an easy cost to pay. That's what the strait gate is about. It is about the believer following Jesus. It is not about someone trying to earn their eternal life.
In this particular usage, "life everlasting" isn't referring to a period or length of time. It refers to the high quality of life we an have as believers. Jesus referred to it in John 10:10 as
abundant life. Paul is not looking at eternity, but our life in the here and now.
In context, that is talking about the Great Tribulation, not being eternal life.
The phrase, "I will not blot out his name out of the book of life," is a emphatic negative in Greek. It literally reads, "I will not, no, not ever..." But that needs to be understood in the light of what it means to "overcome." Who is one that overcomes? Answer: "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1Jn 5:4-5)
According to John, who also wrote Revelation, the one who overcomes is the one who puts their faith in Jesus. And Jesus says to the one who overcomes, that He will not, no, not ever, blot his name from the book of life. That is a promise of the guarantee of salvation by faith, not by works.
I never said it was by confession or believing. I said it was by grace through faith. Eph. 2: 8,9 says, "
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Salvation/eternal life is, from start to finish, a work of God and He alone gets the glory for it. If it is based on our obedience, then we take some of the credit, if not all of it. That's not how it works. The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith and NOT by works.
The goal is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. THAT is the goal. Overcomers do repent and they continue living for Jesus, but they are not working for salvation/eternal life.
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No, it was a flip comment on my part but such low hanging fruit (who cares). Defines the word petty.
I know who you are.
Only someone with a purpose could find innuendo in that statement.
I can't believe I am responding to someone who would use the word "machinations".
Hey Hank, if we are really trying to get to the truth, I must confess I am a normal person. I am not anal retentive, made righteous and imputed are the same. And again because you have not been exposed to "Ahashua" does not mean it is flawed. You are 1 person with an opinion. In the USA we are all allowed our own opinions. Being a normal non-anal person I am going to bed. I will wake-up and easily counter any of your jabs because I have done my due diligence (but that will be after work). Shalom.
Danthemailman
Active Member
Amen! Well said!
I will never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I read Matthew 7:22 and thought to myself, wow! These many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" Such is the mindset of someone who believes that salvation is based on works/merit/performance.Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was stained with sin and in the eyes of God, they are seen as workers of iniquity without the righteousness which of God by faith. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.
John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people in Matthew 7:22-23 were not true converts.
Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many alleged wonderful works that these many people set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to merit eternal life. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers. There are many who are "religious" but not right with God through faith in Jesus Christ.
GoodTidings
Well-Known Member
Why are you calling me Hank?
No, they are not the same. "Imputed" means that it is credited to you your account for a future time. That is not the same as being "made" righteous. Our sins were imputed to Jesus. He was sinless, but died for our sins and bore the penalty for our sins. But now His righteousness is credited or imputed to us and we will only be made rightesous when we receive the fullness of our inheritance.
I am someone who reads and speaks Hebrew and your fake name for God doesn't exist. It's not an opinion, it is just objective fact.
But not your own facts. And the fact is that are assigning a fake, nonbiblical, nonexistent name to God.
Due diligence? Not hardly. You can't even get it right with God's Name.
Really Torah, you need to acquire debating skill.
Specifically (for one thing) stop using ad hominems!
You use an ad hominem in almost every rebuttal.
People know that when a person uses an ad hominem they know inwardly they have lost the debate (often unwittingly) stooping to name calling.
James 3
8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
37818
Well-Known Member
The Trinity is no mystery. "Trinity" is the name of the explination that there is one God and that there are three Persons, God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit who are that one God.
GoodTidings
Well-Known Member
It is a mystery in terms of how God can be one being, but three separate and distinct Persons all of whom are equally God.
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