Can Christians respect atheists?

[tulpje]

Eagle: you are so lucky that you have a place where you could chat with other Baptists here. I have this board where the athiests are, there is the "other Doctrines" board where all the Catholics are trying to assimilate us, there is beliefnet where all the homosexuals congregate, then there is the AAL board where you will only find man-eating carnivorous Lutherans of the worst kind. There is one WELS board, but no-one ever posts there.

 

[wishtolearn]

Originally posted by Star:
wishtolearn,

I so appreciate that beautiful quality in you, your a breath of fresh air! I love scripture but hate the borg mentality "we must assimilate you" lol! E-mail me sometime I could use more christian freinds like you, I consider you my sister in christ no hoops to jump through for me

In Him and blessed by your humility

Kim

Thank you Star for your kind words. YOu made my dayI wish you much joy and understanding as you go thru this world of ours. Peace to you and your family.

 

[wishtolearn]

Originally posted by tulpje:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by wishtolearn:
Kachana,
I am a Christian. However most people on this board would argue against that because I havn't been "saved", "slain in the spirit",I don't follow Church law, whatever. My belief in God and Jesus has never wavered even when I was a child, I knew and felt the same as I feel today as a 32 year old woman. I would never tell someone with conviction that they are going to Hell. Regardless of their religion or beliefs or sexual orientation, you name it. Who am I or any human to make that claim. Only God knows the heart of man, not little 'ol me. It absolutely floors me when individuals spend more time quoting Scripture and judging others than they do learning to love their fellow neighbor. I would never try to convince anyone to believe the same as I do as well, that would be foolish and what would I have to gain. You and all other atheists are equal in my mind and are deserving of a rich life as much as the Christian standing next to you. Best wishes.

But, wishtolearn, we have a commandment from God. We call it, "The Great Commission."

Mark 16
15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

Matthew 28
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,</font>[/QUOTE]Break a leg, tulpje

 

[Kachana]

Tuljpe, you say I'm twisting your words, but the whole point of my analogy is for you to show me how I am not twisting your words. If the analogy I have chosen is unfair, I want to know why.

Yes, it can't be very nice for me to use such an analogy, but conversely, is it very nice for me to know that you think that I should burn in flames for ever? I think the latter is far worse than the former. Do you not see the irony in your complaints that my argument is cruel and unfair when you think I should burn in fire forever?

I'm sure that if I was to start a post where I advocated that all Christians should be burnt in a fire (which I truly don't believe), I would be banned before I could say 'knife'. But when I speak out against the converse belief from Christians to atheists, it is I that am treading on thin ice!

You say you are reaching out with love. In that case, why do you think I should go to Hell? That's clearly not love, it's blackmail.

I just want to know how someone can have any respect for me as I currently am if they believe that I deserve to burn in a lake of fire forever. If there is no answer to this, what reason is there for me to treat such people as anything different from an enemy?

Incidentally, I don't label myself a Christian, and I'm male.

 

[wishtolearn]

Originally posted by tulpje:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by EagleLives911:
And Clint: Here is what Kachana posted to me, & my post wasn't even directed to Kachana, but in reply to the thread regarding a literal hell!

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Kachana: If you actually believe this should happen to me, I truly, really and honestly see members of the Ku Klux Klan as the nicest, friendliest, most loving and caring individuals in the world compared to you.

These kinds of remarks are pitiful & inflammatory, not the basis of good debate or discussion, IMHO, on any board, let alone this one. Perhaps there is more TROLLING going on?

Mary: Is it time to shake the dust on this thread, too?
</font>[/QUOTE]She actually suggested that? I don't know Eagle. It hurts that I am trying to express to them the love of Christ and we are insulted so badly. </font>[/QUOTE]When you can try and drop your self-righteous dog and pony show, you might be able to get people to understand your a little bit better and accept what you have to say.

 

[Kachana]

These kinds of remarks are pitiful & inflammatory, not the basis of good debate or discussion, IMHO, on any board, let alone this one. Perhaps there is more TROLLING going on?

Mary: Is it time to shake the dust on this thread, too?
[/QB]

But Eagles, think of Hell for a second, can you think of any better word to describe it that inflammatory? How can I give an analogy to Hell withouth it sounding horrific given the nature of Hell? The irony that you think I should burn forever and ever and ever whilst also thinking that my repudiation of this belief as abhorrent is inflammatory is overwhelming.

Look, I'm hoping that it is possible to discuss Hell, which is after all fairly central to many Christians, in a rational manner. I understand that it is hard to do this given the very nature of the topic, but I'm trying. I'd bet money that all of you are very friendly and caring people in real life, and would help me if I was in trouble (say, bleeding to death), regardless of my creed and colour. It is for this reason that I find it particularly hard to beleive that, if your attempts to save me from dying were in vain, you would then think it perfectly just for me to burn forever in a fire! Thus, I think that there is a dichotomy between what you believe 'on paper', and what you believe emotionally. For this reason, no, you are nothing like the Nazis, who emotionally thought Jews should burn. My argument is toward what you beleive 'on paper', and for this reason please don't construe my comments as attacks on your personality, but rather, on your principles.

If what I have said above really is unfair, if there is a reason why I should respect Christians that believe I should burn forever, and the analogies to the Jews in the war are unfounded, I want to know why.

Respectfully

Kachana

 

[wishtolearn]

Originally posted by Kachana:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by wishtolearn:
Kachana,
I am a Christian. However most people on this board would argue against that because I havn't been "saved", "slain in the spirit",I don't follow Church law, whatever. My belief in God and Jesus has never wavered even when I was a child, I knew and felt the same as I feel today as a 32 year old woman. I would never tell someone with conviction that they are going to Hell. Regardless of their religion or beliefs or sexual orientation, you name it. Who am I or any human to make that claim. Only God knows the heart of man, not little 'ol me. It absolutely floors me when individuals spend more time quoting Scripture and judging others than they do learning to love their fellow neighbor. I would never try to convince anyone to believe the same as I do as well, that would be foolish and what would I have to gain. You and all other atheists are equal in my mind and are deserving of a rich life as much as the Christian standing next to you. Best wishes.

Again, another type of Christian that I would be perfectly happy to see any of my children become.</font>[/QUOTE]Thank you for your kind comments.

 

[LadyEagle]

WTL:
When you can try and drop your self-righteous dog and pony show...

WTL: In your profile, you state you are a believer. May I ask, a believer of what? (I am not trying to be facetious here, but just asking.)

Quoting Scripture does not make one self-righteous....accusing those who do post Scriptures of being neo-Nazi's, skinheads, KKK or Aryan Nations fanatics is really, really absurd. Just plain goofy, derogatory and meant to inflame, incite, such as yelling "Fire!" in a crowded public place.

As far as I can tell, no one posted anything about saying someone SHOULD go to hell.....but clearly the Scripture states there is a hell and there are those who are in it now and will go there. The Scripture also states (as I posted in the other thread) that God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentence, thus the Free Gift of Salvation through the Blood and Sacrificial Death, Buriel, and Ressurection of Jesus Christ. A free gift & a choice.

For those who are EARNESTLY seeking, numerous threads have been posted to answer their questions. However, IMHO, there are many TROLLS on this board and thus, the troll-like slant to questions and troll-like twisting of replies to those questions, and then troll-like accusations! PULLLL...EASEEEEE!

This reminds me of the story of the parishioner who listened to a sermon preached against the ills of drinking and womanizing and who afterwards accused the preacher of preaching at him! LOL!

And then there is the saying that if the shoe fits.....

There are LOTS of trolls on this board, IMHO.

Again, for those who are truly SEEKING, there are numerous links, including this one:

http://www.salvation.com/si

Self-righteous, I hardly think so! The difference between true Christianity and religions is true Christianity is a relationship, God reaching down to mankind out of Love. Religion is man's attempt to reach to God through his own efforts.
It is NOT by works of righteousness that I have done, but according to His MERCY that He saved me! (my paraphrase)

But there are admonishments from the Lord about sowing discord among the "brethren."
And while we are at it...

Proverbs 6:[16] These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
[17] A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
[18] An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
[19] A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

And from Paul, which was written to Christians, an admonishment about how Christians should be towards other Christians (believers):

Romans 15:[5] Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
[6] That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

A "believer" who accuses another "believer" of being self-righteous because of adhering to tenets of Scripture, does raise a question, IMHO.

Kachana: The irony that you think I should burn forever and ever and ever...

Kachana---I never said I thought you should burn in hell, I did not post that. It is not for me to judge you. I pray you will not burn in hell. I posted what Scripture has to say about it and that I believe in a literal hell and described my perception of hell in answer to the other thread. You are reading something more into my post than what I DID post. Your argument is not with me, but with Scripture!
I also posted Scripture where God says He is not willing that ANY should perish. I can't be any more clearer
than pointing you, once again, to the link I posted above, a media show, which explains it all. Why don't you check it out?

Mary, grab your pearls! Me too!

 

[tulpje]

Originally posted by Kachana:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />These kinds of remarks are pitiful & inflammatory, not the basis of good debate or discussion, IMHO, on any board, let alone this one. Perhaps there is more TROLLING going on?

Mary: Is it time to shake the dust on this thread, too?

But Eagles, think of Hell for a second, can you think of any better word to describe it that inflammatory? How can I give an analogy to Hell withouth it sounding horrific given the nature of Hell? The irony that you think I should burn forever and ever and ever whilst also thinking that my repudiation of this belief as abhorrent is inflammatory is overwhelming.

Look, I'm hoping that it is possible to discuss Hell, which is after all fairly central to many Christians, in a rational manner. I understand that it is hard to do this given the very nature of the topic, but I'm trying. I'd bet money that all of you are very friendly and caring people in real life, and would help me if I was in trouble (say, bleeding to death), regardless of my creed and colour. It is for this reason that I find it particularly hard to beleive that, if your attempts to save me from dying were in vain, you would then think it perfectly just for me to burn forever in a fire! Thus, I think that there is a dichotomy between what you believe 'on paper', and what you believe emotionally. For this reason, no, you are nothing like the Nazis, who emotionally thought Jews should burn. My argument is toward what you beleive 'on paper', and for this reason please don't construe my comments as attacks on your personality, but rather, on your principles.

If what I have said above really is unfair, if there is a reason why I should respect Christians that believe I should burn forever, and the analogies to the Jews in the war are unfounded, I want to know why.

Respectfully

Kachana[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Katchana: Hell isn't suppose to be a nice place. When you are dicipling your children, are they suppose to enjoy it?

This is the first use of the law-to curb our actions. If you got real mad at your friend, and decided that you were going to kill her... you get a gun, and get into your car and start driving over to her house. On the way, you start thinking, "Well maybe I shouldn't do this. This is murder. I am going to go to jail for this." So, you turn around and go home. The consequenses of your crime curbed your actions. It is the same with hell. The law convicts of sin, and the penelty of said sin is death and hell where there is eternal fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teath. Those are the consquenses of your sin. otherwise there would be no reason to come to God and obey his commandments.

Matthew 13
41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Now to the person who told me not to be so "Self righteous" I say according to these verses, it is the righteous who will inherit the kingdom of God. "Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear."(Matthew 13:43)

 

[wishtolearn]

Eagle,
I am a believer in Christ and that he came to earth to die for the sins of mankind. I do not belong to any specific religion as I would not want to put my mind in a box and throw it up on the shelf like that. I also believe that Christ's greatest message was to love one another. Regardless of what Scripture says, I cannot honestly believe that God is in his Heaven smiling down on those who condemn others to Hell based upon their beliefs, culture, race, sexual orientation, etc. We are all here for a greater purpose and that is to learn and love. Maybe, just maybe God put atheists on this earth so that we can learn from them. Ever think of that? We could learn about our own beliefs because we have something to compare them to. Maybe homosexuals are here to teach us compassion and understanding. Maybe Muslims are here to teach us to love our neighbor and to take joy in the beauty of all cultures and religions. Joy in the fact that we are such a multi-faceted creature. Try to think outside the box now and then and you'd be surprised how wonderful we all are.

 

[wishtolearn]

Tulpje, Call me crazy but I think that I would abstain from killing someone not because jail is a scary place, but because I've got this silly little moral streak running thru me. I can't kill a bird let alone a human being. Hell doesn't stop me from doing nasty things to others, the fact that I would make someone hurt emotionally or physically is what stops me and I can't believe that I'm alone in this thought.

 

[tulpje]

"Mary, grab your pearls! Me too!"

Haha I got 'em. Don't worry!

You made a great point Eagle when you said, "God is not willing that ANY should perish." Salvation is for all people. (well actually, we don't believe in double predestination, but only predestination-although I am beginning to wonder)

Romans 1
15That is why I am so eager to preach the gospel also to you who are at Rome.
16I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[1] just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."[2]

 

[tulpje]

Originally posted by wishtolearn:
Tulpje, Call me crazy but I think that I would abstain from killing someone not because jail is a scary place, but because I've got this silly little moral streak running thru me. I can't kill a bird let alone a human being. Hell doesn't stop me from doing nasty things to others, the fact that I would make someone hurt emotionally or physically is what stops me and I can't believe that I'm alone in this thought.

Hahaha that is the second use of the law-to mirror our sins. Just like when you wake up in the morning and you look in the mirror and you say-Gee my hair is a mess, I better comb it. The law acts as a mirror to our actions refecting and showing us our sin. In this case you are speaking of the law that is written in your heart.

Romans 2:15
since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

The first use of the law is for non believers only. The second use of the law is for non-believers and believers a like. The third us of the law is only for believers. That is we use it as a guide in our daily lives. We obey the law not because we HAVE to, but because we WANT to.

[ March 23, 2002, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: tulpje ]

 

[tulpje]

Originally posted by wishtolearn:
Tulpje, Call me crazy but I think that I would abstain from killing someone not because jail is a scary place, but because I've got this silly little moral streak running thru me. I can't kill a bird let alone a human being. Hell doesn't stop me from doing nasty things to others, the fact that I would make someone hurt emotionally or physically is what stops me and I can't believe that I'm alone in this thought.

Threre are plenty of folks who do not commit certain crimes because of the threat of punishment In the example of children, they don't do things cause mommy gets mad and because they will get into trouble. It is the same thing in adults and with God. Your sinfullness is going to buy you a one way ticket to hell, unless you go to the Lord for salvation. That is why hell isn't a nice place to be. What kind of punishment is that?

[ March 23, 2002, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: tulpje ]

 

[LadyEagle]

WTL: Regardless of what Scripture says,

So, if you don't believe Scripture, how do you know you are a believer?

If one is to seek truth, one must rely on scripture alone and not "thinking out of the box," or by man's judgment or reasoning. Man's judgment, reasoning, intellect is flawed, if for no other reason, than because of being born into a sinful state (sinful state, also is according to Scripture).

Scripture also says the wisdom of man is but foolishness to God.

Anyway, thanks for answering my question. Now I can see where you are coming from.

 

[wishtolearn]

Originally posted by EagleLives911:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />WTL: Regardless of what Scripture says,

So, if you don't believe Scripture, how do you know you are a believer?

If one is to seek truth, one must rely on scripture alone and not "thinking out of the box," or by man's judgment or reasoning. Man's judgment, reasoning, intellect is flawed, if for no other reason, than because of being born into a sinful state (sinful state, also is according to Scripture).

Scripture also says the wisdom of man is but foolishness to God.

God granted me the wisdom I do have and the desire to increase it as I go along. His gift, I intend to use it.

Anyway, thanks for answering my question. Now I can see where you are coming from.</font>[/QUOTE]I know I am a believer as much as I know the sky is blue, my hair is brown, and this pizza I'm eating now is really good. I don't question it. Never have. I also do not rely on one source for inspiration. My belief system does not fall into the same catagory as yours and why should it? We're individuals and you have every right to claim the Bible only as your source of reference as I do to claim everything else in life as mine.

 

[wishtolearn]

Originally posted by tulpje:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by wishtolearn:
Tulpje, Call me crazy but I think that I would abstain from killing someone not because jail is a scary place, but because I've got this silly little moral streak running thru me. I can't kill a bird let alone a human being. Hell doesn't stop me from doing nasty things to others, the fact that I would make someone hurt emotionally or physically is what stops me and I can't believe that I'm alone in this thought.

Threre are plenty of folks who do not commit certain crimes because of the threat of punishment In the example of children, they don't do things cause mommy gets mad and because they will get into trouble. It is the same thing in adults and with God. Your sinfullness is going to buy you a one way ticket to hell, unless you go to the Lord for salvation. That is why hell isn't a nice place to be. What kind of punishment is that?</font>[/QUOTE]I speak to my Father about my salvation and ask for his forgiveness all of the time. He hears me, loves me and we go on. I also know that Christ died for us sinners. Just another thing I don't question.

 

[wishtolearn]

Originally posted by tulpje:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by wishtolearn:
Tulpje, Call me crazy but I think that I would abstain from killing someone not because jail is a scary place, but because I've got this silly little moral streak running thru me. I can't kill a bird let alone a human being. Hell doesn't stop me from doing nasty things to others, the fact that I would make someone hurt emotionally or physically is what stops me and I can't believe that I'm alone in this thought.

Hahaha that is the second use of the law-to mirror our sins. Just like when you wake up in the morning and you look in the mirror and you say-Gee my hair is a mess, I better comb it. The law acts as a mirror to our actions refecting and showing us our sin. In this case you are speaking of the law that is written in your heart.

Romans 2:15
since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

The first use of the law is for non believers only. The second use of the law is for non-believers and believers a like. The third us of the law is only for believers. That is we use it as a guide in our daily lives. We obey the law not because we HAVE to, but because we WANT to.</font>[/QUOTE]You have the incredible ability of taking something very simple and using Scripture to make it very difficult and complex. How do you do it?

 

[Star]

Kachana, ( I just saw your first post to me)

lol! No Kachana its not the way I see "fire" as hell. Did you read my post on hell? I see it (if you go back and look at it) As God being its destruction He says

Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I WILL BE THY DESTRUCTION: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. (See?)

Christ had to "fulfill" the old testament and God doesn't lie. look here...

Isaiah 28:18 And your COVENANT WITH DEATH shall be DISSANULLED (made void- CANCELLED), and your agreement with HELL SHALL NOT STAND; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Hell is a place prepared for the devil and his angels (jesus said) but is also seen as in the presence of the Lamb and his holy ones.

It speaks of a "torment" for ever but as I shared on the post I see that having no power or hurt on or over us. Theres much more in the picture then I posted but I don't see the lake of fire anything other then God because God IS A CONSUMING FIRE (Eternal too) and if He is deaths destruction and both death and hell are destroyed by God the conclusion is that that lake of fire has to be God Himself (like a burning bush) it didn't burn up the bush, or like Daniel in the fire it did not hurt daniel or like Paul said a person saved YET BY FIRE his works may be burnt up but not the person. There are tons of jewels in this. So this fire makes me joyful not afraid.

The fear of the Lord is the BEGINING OF WISDOM but PERFECT LOVE CASTS OUT FEAR. As legion percieved Jesus (Or Gods word= Fire) as a "torment" they found Christ casted these very things out.

I'm not one who believes its a literal fire by the letter of the word which burns you, in fact can anyone provide a verse stating Hell burns you forever?

Gods fire has "redeeming qualities" I can see the torment part as being painful perhaps emotionally as one works out their salvation with fear and trembling but this is only the begining

They are tormented day and night forever in the fact that this world is a world without end. The torment I see is how it applies to those under the law (kept in prison in a sense)

Duet 28:66 And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt FEAR DAY and NIGHT, and shalt have none ASSURANCE of thy life:
(Looks like one is working out their salvation in fear and trembling to me)

Looks very similiar to this doesn't it?
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have NO REST day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (For we labor to enter that rest)

THIS REQUIRES THE PATIENCE OF THE SAINTS

Thats why we are encouraged to not lose heart, that if we shrink back and not stand by faith alone there is an expectation of judgement in that regard. I see the "fire" being set ablaze after Christ came, the "testing of our faith" under the law should be torment thats why if you seek to be justified by the law you fall from grace, kinda like Peters struggle He began to walk on the lake and "doubted" he began to sink. The Saints STAND on the sea glass mingled with fire. The testing helps you to stand. I see no harmful "fire" in Gods word and don't see it consistent with the rest of scripture if compared to every picture as is presented in similitudes.

I'm not one who believes in this fire as anything other then God himself and when its done its work within us there is no more night, He becomes the light we walk by

In Him Kim

P.S
(saying this will bring the sword to my throat I realize this but in my heart I cannot recconcile a God of love who says love your enemies while He fries people to death in place place like this, and so after looking at it more closely and how it relates to everything else I don't see it as such any longer- I just didn't want you to misunderstand the symbolic imagery as I was representing them because they seem hard and concrete but to me they are "soft" melting like butter into the person of God)

 

[JohnClay]

tulpje:
On the bottom of page 1 I put a question to you - I talked about Christians who had given people an ultimatum - repent and be baptized or die. So in a way, the Christians didn't want the others to do, it was the "choice" of the others to do. (Like it is the atheists' "choice" to go to hell) Could you respond to that post?