Can CoC be considered Christian?

[Stanedglass]

You are still talking out of both sides of your mouth here.

Mr. Steele, I"m not talking out of both sides of my mouth. Do we repent b/c we beleive or do we believe b/c we repent. Or I can ask it like this, Do we repent b/c we have faith or do we have faith b/c we repent?

You first agreed with me that repentance is part of faith, that faith includes repentance.

Repentance is a work of Faith! Repentance is not Fatih alone or Belief alone! I could say Faith without Repentance is Dead! (Jam 2)

Then you turned right around and claimed that a person can believe without having repented. Hence, faith does not include repentance.

Yes a person can believe without repenting! Does that mean they are saved? NO! It just means that they Believe in Jesus but refuse to turn from their sins! DHK quoted it earlier "Even the devils believe" Have they repented? NO.

I think you finally decided on a position. Emphasis mine:
I will take that as your real position.

My position is the Bibles position. Listen, I can tell you what I believe and why I believe it according to the bible. I give scripture of every refrence I state. If you want to continue this debate with me and stand upon your original statement

"

Repentance is part of faith. It is not a work apart from faith.

How can a person genuinely believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, and not immediately repent of living out of harmony with His will? It is impossible.

A so-called "faith" that does not include repentance is not biblical, genuine faith.

You said repent immediately after believing! Then you said

A person repents the moment that s/he genuinely believes that Jesus Christ is Lord

SO which is it, the moment we believe or the moment after we beleive? But don't worry I wont say you are talking out of both sides of your mouth...LOL (that's a joke not a jab)

(Jokes over)
If you can't give me bible refrences of what your position is please back off of your point. I'm not intrested in opinions. If you want to show me what the bible says "My ears will perk"! Please offer me scripture where it says we repent the moment we believe in Jesus?

Hence, your real position is that faith does not include repentance.

No my real position is what the bible says about it, not my opinion. I gave you bible refrences showing that people had not repented although they believed (Acts 2 37). If you can't accept that, it's scripture you have a problem with not me or my understanding!

It also boggles my mind that you hold it. How anyone can assert that a person can truly believe that Jesus Christ is Lord without having repented of living out of harmony with His will is beyond me.

I mean, if a person still thinks s/he can live out of harmony with His will if s/he wishes, there is no way that s/he really believes He is Lord. Without repentance, there is no faith on Jesus Christ, and the person is NOT a believer.

Scripture knows of no such notion: "believers" who still think they can live out of harmony with His will. In Scripture, all "believers" were people who had submitted their lives to be followers of Jesus Christ.

So it is amazing to me that anyone will talk about repentance as a separate thing from faith.

As I stated earlier, 2nd Corth 7:10 says that Godly Sorrow Worketh Repentance. As I stated earlier as well, God does not Repent for us. God will convict us of somthing but that does not mean we have repented.

If one believes that Jesus is Lord and refuses to Repent that says alot about a persons faith. I would say that if they refuse to repent then they really don't hold Jesus as Lord. That does not mean that they don't beleive in Jesus, It just means that they refuse to be obedient to him!

IF we don't have faith we don't repent! If we have faith, we repent.

 

[lbaker]

If the Christ that you put your faith in is not the second person of the triune Godhead you tell me how you can be saved. That kind of "Christ" is a false Christ, and that gospel, according to Paul is an other gospel, and the person that preaches it is "accursed." (Gal.1:6-8)

How do we know Christ is the 2nd person of the Godhead? Maybe He is the 1st, or the 3rd, or maybe they aren't even numbered at all. I don't recall any scripture assigning them numbers. A whole lot of what we think we know about how God interacts is based on what men wrangled over and thought about. The little bit they reasoned out may not even be close to what things are really like with Elohim.

I admit I really have no idea just exactly how the Father, Son, and Spirit relate to each other. How He is one and Three at the same time. How there are three Persons and one God is beyond me. Who knows, maybe there are really a fourth, or a fifth, Persons and we just never heard of them.

The more I think about this the more I think a lot of humility in judging what others understand is in order.

 

[DHK]

How do we know Christ is the 2nd person of the Godhead? Maybe He is the 1st, or the 3rd, or maybe they aren't even numbered at all. I don't recall any scripture assigning them numbers. A whole lot of what we think we know about how God interacts is based on what men wrangled over and thought about. The little bit they reasoned out may not even be close to what things are really like with Elohim.

I admit I really have no idea just exactly how the Father, Son, and Spirit relate to each other. How He is one and Three at the same time. How there are three Persons and one God is beyond me. Who knows, maybe there are really a fourth, or a fifth, Persons and we just never heard of them.

The more I think about this the more I think a lot of humility in judging what others understand is in order.

A simple study of the Scriptures tells us:

The order:
Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

That there are three in one:
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
--Thus there can only be three and only three.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
--Even the unsaved are without excuse.

The Scriptures attribute deity to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and to none other.

 

[Stanedglass]

A simple study of the Scriptures tells us:

The order:
Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

That there are three in one:
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
--Thus there can only be three and only three.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
--Even the unsaved are without excuse.

The Scriptures attribute deity to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and to none other.

Still waiting on the answer to my questions DHK!

 

[DHK]

Please answer my question! Does the bible specifically say we have to beleive in the Trinity to be saved or to be a Christian? Yes or NO! Please don't throw back questions trying to answer my question.

Yes. If you don't believe in the Christ of the Bible, then you don't believe in Christ at all. Does the Bible specifically say you must believe that Christ was born of a virgin. If you don't I would question your salvation? If you deny or question the foundational truths of the Bible I would question your salvation. To question the person of Christ is to question who Christ is? Do you not know the Christ you believe in?

But again please answer my question with a simple yes or no. Does the bible say that we must believe in the Trinity to be saved or to be considered a Christian.

Does my father have to tell me that we have the same last name for me to believe that he is my father?
"I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."
Do you not know the one that you have believed??!!
If he is not the second person of the trinity, then who is he?
Yes, he must be the second person of the trinity. If you do not believe in that person, then perhaps you are believing a false Christ.

Again I will ask for a simple yes/no answer. Does the bible specifically say that we must beleive that he is the second person!

Yes. Otherwise Christ is not Christ.

According to what I have confessed. Am I a saved Christian?

Only you can answer that question. God knows the answer. Do you know the answer?

 

[lbaker]

A simple study of the Scriptures tells us:

The order:
Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

That there are three in one:
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
--Thus there can only be three and only three.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
--Even the unsaved are without excuse.

The Scriptures attribute deity to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and to none other.

Matthew 28 lists the Persons but doesn't number them. To assume from one verse that Jesus is assigned the number two is a huge stretch. Also, what about the passages where people are just immersed in the name of Jesus, or into Jesus? One could just as easily assume Jesus must be number one from those verses. Also, just because only three are listed at any one time doesn't necessarily mean there are only three. I am not proposing that we make up some more Persons, just making the point that we don't know all there is to know about God. At least I don't.

 

[DHK]

Matthew 28 lists the Persons but doesn't number them. To assume from one verse that Jesus is assigned the number two is a huge stretch. Also, what about the passages where people are just immersed in the name of Jesus, or into Jesus? One could just as easily assume Jesus must be number one from those verses. Also, just because only three are listed at any one time doesn't necessarily mean there are only three. I am not proposing that we make up some more Persons, just making the point that we don't know all there is to know about God. At least I don't.

1John 5:7 gives the same number and the same order as Mat.28:19. That is no coincidence. Consistently throughout the gospels the Son submits himself to the Father, and the Son promises that the Spirit will come after Him. That also gives order, and number. What you suggest is outside of orthodox Christianity.

"In the name of Jesus." The Bible also says: "In Him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells." They could baptize in the name of Jesus because they recognized that within Christ was the trinity. He was part of the Godhead. He was deity. In Him was the Godhead. He was the Creator.

John 1:3-4 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Did God the Father or God the Son create all things? How did John the Apostle know these things, if he didn't have an understanding of the trinity? He would have never guessed it was the Son from a reading of the first few verses of Genesis one, that which every Jew is well acquainted with. He knew who Jesus was.

 

[Stanedglass]

Yes. If you don't believe in the Christ of the Bible, then you don't believe in Christ at all. Does the Bible specifically say you must believe that Christ was born of a virgin. If you don't I would question your salvation? If you deny or question the foundational truths of the Bible I would question your salvation. To question the person of Christ is to question who Christ is? Do you not know the Christ you believe in?

Does my father have to tell me that we have the same last name for me to believe that he is my father?
"I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."
Do you not know the one that you have believed??!!
If he is not the second person of the trinity, then who is he?
Yes, he must be the second person of the trinity. If you do not believe in that person, then perhaps you are believing a false Christ.

Yes. Otherwise Christ is not Christ.

Only you can answer that question. God knows the answer. Do you know the answer?

DHK, yet you cannot give me any scripture that says one must believe he is the second person or that we must beleive in the Trinity to be saved or to be considered a Christian.

There is plenty of Scripture that says Mary was a Virgin! (Math 1:23, Luke 1:27,)

There are plenty of Scripture prophesying Jesus would be born of a Virgin.

Scripture makes it easy for us to believe that. It is solid, there is a foundation.

But what you are saying about Jesus being 2nd has no foundation. That is YOUR opinion! If there is no Scripture that says "You must beleive that Jesus is 2nd or that there is a Trinity you are not saved than it's your opinion!

We MUST only believe that He is the I AM (John 8:24)

All I'm asking for is ONE verse that says we must beleive that he is the 2nd person or that we must beleive in the Trinity to be saved?

Now apart from Faith in Christ ALONE, we have to believe in The Trinity to be saved????

Instead of dodging the question with questions and other philosopheys just answer my other question as well.

If I believe in Jesus Christ, the one who Died, was buried and rose again, put my complete faith in him am I a saved Christian.

Forget about the Sun Myung Moon. Forget about Allah, Foreget about all the other reasons why you won't answer the question and answer it truthfully as though I came to your church, closed my eyes, bowed my head, came forth when the preacher said, Believed in Christ with all my heart Confessed him with my lips, Called upon the Name of the LordRepented of my sins, believed I was a sinner, believed Christ was born of a vrigin yadda yadda yadda, oh yea, and meant it!

Am I a saved Christian or Not as Long as I put my complete fatih in Jesus Christ?

 

[lbaker]

6This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.

Actually, in the NIV you have a different order in 6-9 with Christ first, the Spirit 2nd, and God (the Father) listed 3rd. (Yes, I looked at the footnote about the Vulgate version from later manuscripts.)

I am NOT trying to be dogmatic here, just urging caution in judging others. I probably agree pretty much with what you believe about the Godhead, although I still don't see any numbers being assigned.

This is one of those situations when Grace must be given from brother to brother, I think.

 

[Stanedglass]

Nevermind!

 

[Darron Steele]

Mr. Steele, I"m not talking out of both sides of my mouth. Do we repent b/c we beleive or do we believe b/c we repent. Or I can ask it like this, Do we repent b/c we have faith or do we have faith b/c we repent?

Repentance is a work of Faith! Repentance is not Fatih alone or Belief alone! I could say Faith without Repentance is Dead! (Jam 2)

Yes a person can believe without repenting! Does that mean they are saved? NO! It just means that they Believe in Jesus but refuse to turn from their sins! DHK quoted it earlier "Even the devils believe" Have they repented? NO.

The demons are not people.

So you are going to base your precepts on demons? Kind of scary.

My position is the Bibles position. Listen, I can tell you what I believe and why I believe it according to the bible. I give scripture of every refrence I state. If you want to continue this debate with me and stand upon your original statement

Hold on here.

Get off your Restorationist high-horse. You are not the only person here who bases your beliefs off of Scripture.

On this board, you will not get to parrot without challenge those disdainful smears you hear in your church group that `We are the only people who study and follow the Bible -- everyone else just follows opinions and/or believes whatever they want.' It helps you feel good to say and hear those things, I am sure.

On this board, you are dealing with real people, not fantasy. Most conservative Christians of whatever church group study the Bible and follow it the best they are able. That is reality.

"You said repent immediately after believing!

Really?

I said that? WHERE?!

The word I used was "simultaneously."

That is not "immediately after."

Seems like your basing of your precepts on demons might be making you a little bit too much like their master -- whom Jesus called the father of lies at John 8. Might I remind you that an arrogant pride got their master kicked out of heaven, per Isaiah 14.

If you can't give me bible refrences of what your position is please back off of your point.

If you can give me a single example of Scripture where you find a person called a "believer" who is still living life as s/he wishes, and I will pay attention.

I'm not intrested in opinions.

Really? Then why are you posting a distinction between faith and repentance?

There is not a single teaching of Scripture that says a person can be a "believer" and not have repented of living out of harmony with the Lord's will.

If you want to show me what the bible says "My ears will perk"! Please offer me scripture where it says we repent the moment we believe in Jesus?

No my real position is what the bible says about it, not my opinion. I gave you bible refrences showing that people had not repented although they believed (Acts 2 37). If you can't accept that, it's scripture you have a problem with not me or my understanding!
....

I tell you what, you stop being so arrogantly self-congratulatory, and I might consider you worth talking a little bit more with about the Scriptures on this subject.

You seem to think that `I am the only person between us who goes with the Bible, and I have no opinions of my own, and I know what I think, and because I think it, that is what the Bible teaches.' With that attitude, there is nothing I can show you from Scripture that you will accept -- `thou knowest all things.'

Is there any point to me trying to show you from the Scriptures why I hold the beliefs that I do about this? Or dost thou knowest all things?

 

[DHK]

Am I a saved Christian or Not as Long as I put my complete fatih in Jesus Christ?

There is no equivocation here--no sitting on the fence.
Either Christ is someone (like Sun Myung Moon) or He is the Creator, the second person of the triune Godhead, born of a virgin, atoned for our sins by dying on the cross, was buried, rose again the third day, ascended bodily into heaven and shall come again.

You either believe in one or the other.
As an unsaved Catholic I believed in every single item that I described in the second description but still was not saved. I put my faith in Christ. But even more I put my faith in the RCC. Thus I was not saved. Knowledge does not save. Not even the right knowledge saves.
However if your complete saving faith, however sincere it may be, is put in the wrong Christ, you will forever be damned. If Christ is not the Christ of the Bible He is not Christ at all.

 

[Darron Steele]

...
Am I a saved Christian or Not as Long as I put my complete fatih in Jesus Christ?

Let me ask you a similar question: is a person a saved Christian if s/he puts complete faith in Jesus Christ?

 

[Stanedglass]

The demons are not people.

So you are going to base your precepts on demons? Kind of scary.

Hold on here.

Get off your Restorationist high-horse. You are not the only person here who bases your beliefs off of Scripture.

Hold on fellow! I think you are reading into my comments as though I have an attitude! Please believe me that there is no contention here at all.

On this board, you will not get to parrot without challenge those disdainful smears you hear in your church group that `We are the only people who study and follow the Bible -- everyone else just follows opinions and/or believes whatever they want.' It helps you feel good to say and hear those things, I am sure.

On this board, you are dealing with real people, not fantasy. Most conservative Christians of whatever church group study the Bible and follow it the best they are able. That is reality.

Listen, I know I'm not the only one going to heaven! All I'm asking for is Scriptural Refrences to what you are disputing. If you can't show me those refrences, then it's based on your speculation!

Really?

I said that? WHERE?!

The word I used was "simultaneously."

That is not "immediately after."

I quoted it in my last post but here it is again!

How can a person genuinely believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, and not immediately repent of living out of harmony with His will? It is impossible.

Seems like your basing of your precepts on demons might be making you a little bit too much like their master -- whom Jesus called the father of lies at John 8. Might I remind you that an arrogant pride got their master kicked out of heaven, per Isaiah 14.
If you can give me a single example of Scripture where you find a person called a "believer" who is still living life as s/he wishes, and I will pay attention.

Listen man, I'm not sure why you are getting aggrivated or think that I've risen with pride. The only thing I've asked of you to to give me Bible Examples of what you are debating. I'm not being pompas in any of my rebuttles! I've said everything with an honest reply!

If you are in a corner and cannot offer any scripture, instead of getting mad, just say that you can't give me any! I'm not going to ram it down your throat!

Really? Then why are you posting a distinction between faith and repentance?

B/c Repentance is not Faith! Faith is Faith, Repentance is Repentance! I have asked you this before which you will not answer! Is repentance faith? Repentance is a work of Faith!

There is not a single teaching of Scripture that says a person can be a "believer" and not have repented of living out of harmony with the Lord's will.

Don't let me forget about this question! I really really want to answer it. I will have to study what first comes to mind and I'm in a hurry so I don't want to misrepresent scripture. So please don't let me forget and allow me a hour or so to study it while I'm at the gym and will repost as soon as I return!

I tell you what, you stop being so arrogantly self-congratulatory, and I might consider you worth talking a little bit more with about the Scriptures on this subject.

Again, my comments and my replys have been out of a humble heart! I have had no attitude whatsoever! I'm sorry if you take me asking for scripture offending. This whole debate so far, you have offered zilch! Maybe if you want to consider me worth talking to, put scripture where your philosphey is! I say that in a very respectful manner. I apologize if I've offended you!

You seem to think that `I am the only person between us who goes with the Bible, and I have no opinions of my own, and I know what I think, and because I think it, that is what the Bible teaches.' With that attitude, there is nothing I can show you from Scripture that you will accept -- `thou knowest all things.'

Believe me, I don't believe I know all things. But if we are going to talk opinion, then say "This is my opinion. If you are going to talk scripture, then show me! If you think that Scripture is unimportant during a theological debate, that's a major flaw!

Is there any point to me trying to show you from the Scriptures why I hold the beliefs that I do about this? Or dost thou knowest all things?

Of course there is a point! If you can't show me scripture, it's your opinion! And if you are trying to persuade me with your opinion it will not work. But if you bring to light a Scripture that I'm unaware of then perhaps I would not err in a certain understanding. And the bible says that if one errs from the truth and one convert him then that one has saved a soul! (James 5:19)

 

[Stanedglass]

Let me ask you a similar question: is a person a saved Christian if s/he puts complete faith in Jesus Christ?

Yes!

Now do me the honor of answering my question! Is Repentance Faith?

 

[Stanedglass]

There is no equivocation here--no sitting on the fence.
Either Christ is someone (like Sun Myung Moon) or He is the Creator, the second person of the triune Godhead, born of a virgin, atoned for our sins by dying on the cross, was buried, rose again the third day, ascended bodily into heaven and shall come again.

You either believe in one or the other.
As an unsaved Catholic I believed in every single item that I described in the second description but still was not saved. I put my faith in Christ. But even more I put my faith in the RCC. Thus I was not saved. Knowledge does not save. Not even the right knowledge saves.
However if your complete saving faith, however sincere it may be, is put in the wrong Christ, you will forever be damned. If Christ is not the Christ of the Bible He is not Christ at all.

DHK, please answer my question! Is there a Scripture that says one must believe in the Trinity or that Jesus is 2nd to be saved or conisdered a Christian!

Yes or NO! Please let Sun Moon go! This is a horrible defence against my question. Please, answer my question! Yes or No!

Jesus is the Creator we know that John 1:1-14. We still have no scripture stating that Jesus is 2nd! Many stating that we must believe that he is the One True God but none saying he is 2nd.

Ok let me ask this one again now too. I believe in Jesus and that he is the creator and put my faith in him. Am i a saved believing Christian? Yes or No. Its funny to me how at first one must believe in Christ to be saved and now it's I must believe In Jesus, believe he is 2nd, believe there is a Trinity, and that I've got to believe I'm a sinner, Call upon the Name of the Lord, Confess. Stop dodging my question and answer it. From what you believe and what I have stated earlier am I a Christian. I think I know why you wont answer it!

 

[matt wade]

I believe in Jesus and that he is the creator and put my faith in him. Am i a saved believing Christian?

Satan believes in Jesus and believes he is the creator. Does that make Satan a saved believing Christian?

 

[Stanedglass]

Satan believes in Jesus and believes he is the creator. Does that make Satan a saved believing Christian?

Yea, I got whipped hard for using that Scripture earlier...hahahah

But seriously...Can none of you guys answer my question truthfully.

This is ridiculous! If I went to anyone of your churches and sincerely said a prayer, asked Jesus to come into my heart this Sunday morning. Sunday night you would come in and testify "Bless God we had one saved this morning and all the Angles in heaven have rejoyced b/c one sinner has repented and come to know Christ!

I go to a Baptist church every so often, I know the lingo!

Why can't ANYONE answer the question!

 

[Darron Steele]

Yea, I got whipped hard for using that Scripture earlier...hahahah

But seriously...Can none of you guys answer my question truthfully.

This is ridiculous! If I went to anyone of your churches and sincerely said a prayer, asked Jesus to come into my heart this Sunday morning. Sunday night you would come in and testify "Bless God we had one saved this morning and all the Angles in heaven have rejoyced b/c one sinner has repented and come to know Christ!

I go to a Baptist church every so often, I know the lingo!

Why can't ANYONE answer the question!

Dude: you need to lose the `tude.

I believe in Jesus and that he is the creator and put my faith in him. Am i a saved believing Christian? Yes or No.

If this is genuinely so, then yes.

If you believe that Jesus Christ is Who He said He is, then you are a saved, believing Christian.

Let me ask you a similar question: is a person a saved Christian if s/he puts complete faith in Jesus Christ?

Yes!

Now do me the honor of answering my question! Is Repentance Faith?

Already answered. It seems strange that you are asking it again.

A common tactic among the more nasty Restorationists is to `creatively misrepresent' someone they are in dispute with. Are you hoping for an answer that you can twist?

 

[DHK]

Why can't ANYONE answer the question!

I have answered your question on more than one occasion. you refuse my answer. Your problem is that you want me to give you an answer that only you want. You won't accept my answer. Thus there is no point in continuing this discussion.

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.