Can CoC be considered Christian?

[Darron Steele]

Hold on fellow! I think you are reading into my comments as though I have an attitude!

It is pretty clear that you do. Anyone can read back through your posts.

...
Again, my comments and my replys have been out of a humble heart! I have had no attitude whatsoever! I'm sorry if you take me asking for scripture offending.

It is your attitude that is offensive.

I see no humility in your posts. You might claim humility, but your words betray you.

I am not offended by you asking me for Scripture, and you know that. This is another `creative misrepresentation' of the situation.

You know, similar to when you claimed that I said a genuine believer would repent "immediately after" believing on Jesus Christ as Lord -- when I said "simultaneously" and "immediately." Adding in "after" was a pretty creative touch that totally misrepresented my position. You have not been posting on this thread very long, so you seem to be very `creative.'

Now, as for you claiming that a person can be a believer without repenting, you have yet to substantiate from Scripture that a person could be a "believer" while still believing that s/he can live out of harmony with His will. I am convinced that you will find no such thing.

You insist upon a distinction between faith and repentance. You most certainly do not have any evidence of any "believer" or "believers" in Scripture who still thought they or s/he can live out of harmony with His will. That does not deter you from insisting upon that distinction.

You demand, even though you cannot substantiate your distinction, that I substantiate my view that faith and repentance are simultaneous. Fine. In Acts 2, it appears that the audience had an intellectual assent that Jesus Christ was Who He said He is. In Acts 2:38, they were told to repent. The intellectual assent was before the repentance. On the other hand, in Mark 1:15, we see "repent ye, and believe in the gospel" (ASV) and Hebrews 6:1 refers to "a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God" (ASV). You see, one cannot genuinely believe on Jesus Christ as Lord, and not simultaneously repent.

Not only is my position befitting common sense, but it befits the Scriptures. So, remember that the next time you accuse me -- or anyone -- of basing my beliefs on my opinion just because I do not cite passages every time I post any view I have.

 

[Stanedglass]

There is not a single teaching of Scripture that says a person can be a "believer" and not have repented of living out of harmony with the Lord's will.

Ok lets start with a parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15)! He didn't just believe but he lived with his Father, wanted his portion, went and lived foolishly, ate with the swine, was fed up, came to his right mind, Confessed his sin to his Father, Repented of what he did, and His Father Rejoyced.

He believed then he repented later.

Godly sorrow works repentance!

The bible says several times in Luke 15 that all of heaven will rejoyce over one sinner that repents. It doesnt say joy will be in heaven over one sinner that believes! They already believe!

Ok next!

Acts 2 as I have previously stated! When they found out they had crusifed their God The men were pricked in their hearts and said unto Peter and the Rest of the Diciples Men and Brethern what shall WE DO. Then Peter said Repent...

Again, these men believed in Jesus upon Peter's preaching Then asked what they must do! Then Peter said Repent and...THEN Peter said Save yourselves from this untoward generation Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

OK next

2 Tim 10 Damas had forsaken Paul b/c he loved the present world. He was a believer and a follower but chose rather to love the world than to repent and contend for the faith!

I have given you what you have asked for, and have answered your questions with Yes and No's so would you guys please do the same for me.

 

[Stanedglass]

It is pretty clear that you do. Anyone can read back through your posts.It is your attitude that is offensive.

I see no humility in your posts. You might claim humility, but your words betray you.

Please feel free to email me or show me in any post how I have come across rude or offensive. I have been very direct and to the point and very clear so their would be no ambiguity in what I was looking for. I'm sorry if you took that the wrong way. I do however understand how emotions can not clearly be seen over forums or in letter so again I apologize if me being direct has been offensive.

I am not offended by you asking me for Scripture, and you know that. This is another `creative misrepresentation' of the situation.

You know, similar to when you claimed that I said a genuine believer would repent "immediately after" believing on Jesus Christ as Lord -- when I said "simultaneously" and "immediately." Adding in "after" was a pretty creative touch that totally misrepresented my position. You have not been posting on this thread very long, so you seem to be very `creative.'

I'm not trying to be creative, honestly I'm not. I was just reposting what you stated. I was not trying to be cleaver. There was a contridiction in what you were saying and wanted you to clarify your position. Was I the one that added after? In YOUR post above you quoted yourself saying immediately after I was only repeating what you said my friend. (trying to sound not mean there by adding friend...LOL) Laugh you know it's funny!

Now, as for you claiming that a person can be a believer without repenting, you have yet to substantiate from Scripture that a person could be a "believer" while still believing that s/he can live out of harmony with His will. I am convinced that you will find no such thing.

You insist upon a distinction between faith and repentance. You most certainly do not have any evidence of any "believer" or "believers" in Scripture who still thought they or s/he can live out of harmony with His will. That does not deter you from insisting upon that distinction.

This was addressed in a diffrent post that you should be reading as I type!

You demand, even though you cannot substantiate your distinction, that I substantiate my view that faith and repentance are simultaneous. Fine. In Acts 2, it appears that the audience had an intellectual assent that Jesus Christ was Who He said He is. In Acts 2:38, they were told to repent. The intellectual assent was before the repentance. On the other hand, in Mark 1:15, we see "repent ye, and believe in the gospel" (ASV) and Hebrews 6:1 refers to "a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God" (ASV). You see, one cannot genuinely believe on Jesus Christ as Lord, and not simultaneously repent.

We will have to agree to disagree I guess. Having Faith in Jesus will lead us to repent. Having faith in Jesus is not repenting!

Not only is my position befitting common sense, but it befits the Scriptures. So, remember that the next time you accuse me -- or anyone -- of basing my beliefs on my opinion just because I do not cite passages every time I post any view I have.

No one said you had to present scripture everytime. I said that I post scripture everytime to back up what I say. But in your case, your presented it 0 times.

Love you Brother! (Trying to show you that I'm not angry LOL)

 

[Stanedglass]

Dude: you need to lose the `tude. If this is genuinely so, then yes.

I'm laughing as I read this! I promise, I was being sarcastic when I said that! I was not angry. I really, really, really do not have an attitude!

If you believe that Jesus Christ is Who He said He is, then you are a saved, believing Christian.

Already answered. It seems strange that you are asking it again.

A common tactic among the more nasty Restorationists is to `creatively misrepresent' someone they are in dispute with. Are you hoping for an answer that you can twist?

Thank you for answering the question. I'm sorry I never saw where you answered the question. I will not twist your answer! But I may use it in the future! LOL (When needed!) I'm joking!

My friend, you are giving me way to much credit. I have no Idea what you are meaning by a Restorationist.

 

[Stanedglass]

I have answered your question on more than one occasion. you refuse my answer. Your problem is that you want me to give you an answer that only you want. You won't accept my answer. Thus there is no point in continuing this discussion.

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

No sir! You have not answered my question. And I will ask until you give me one. Your answers only leave room for continuing the conversation b/c you can't be straight forward. It's a closed ended question. How can you not answer yes or no? You need not to put any statement with what I'm asking.

Here it is again! DHK, If I put my complete faith in Jesus Christ and his death burial and ressurrection, Am I saved.

If you refuse to answer that then I will have to ask you as a person seeking honest instruction "What Must I DO to be saved"?

DHK, if you put your complete trust in Christ I am assured you will be saved! and if you have told me that and make that confession DHK, I believe you are saved! The answer is a "yes".

Im not trying to trap you if that's what you are scared of unless you have concocted a trap that I have not thought of. Why can't you give me a yes or a No? You say you have, where? Where is the Yes or the No?

 

[DHK]

No sir! You have not answered my question. And I will ask until you give me one. Your answers only leave room for continuing the conversation b/c you can't be straight forward. It's a closed ended question. How can you not answer yes or no? You need not to put any statement with what I'm asking.

Here it is again! DHK, If I put my complete faith in Jesus Christ and his death burial and ressurrection, Am I saved.

If you refuse to answer that then I will have to ask you as a person seeking honest instruction "What Must I DO to be saved"?

You must be born again!

 

[DHK]

No sir! You have not answered my question. And I will ask until you give me one. Your answers only leave room for continuing the conversation b/c you can't be straight forward. It's a closed ended question. How can you not answer yes or no? You need not to put any statement with what I'm asking.

Yes I have answered it. To be saved you need to put your faith in the Christ of the Bible. Only he can save. I have said that many times.

Here it is again! DHK, If I put my complete faith in Jesus Christ and his death burial and ressurrection, Am I saved.

First, I can never answer that question for you. You may make a profession of faith and not be saved. Only God knows your heart. I am not qualified to discern that, especially over the internet.
Second, If your statement is sincere, and I take it at face value, then I still must qualify it on your knowledge of Jesus Christ. If you do not believe that Christ is the 2nd person of the trinity, then no, you cannot be saved. You deny vital truths of the Bible such as the resurrection, the virgin birth, etc. A non-trinitarian is a heretic and cannot be saved as long as he holds to that position. Is that a clear enough statement?
you must put your faith in the Christ of the Bible, not another Christ!

If you refuse to answer that then I will have to ask you as a person seeking honest instruction "What Must I DO to be saved"?

1. Recognize that you are a sinner, lost, and condemned to Hell. If you got what you deserved you would spend an eternity in Hell. You deserve nothing but the eternal wrath of God upon your life. The reason? You, (as we all) have sinned. You and I are sinners. God is holy. Nothing unholy can enter into heaven. That excludes us.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
--We have sinned.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
--The consequence of our sin is eternal death or separation from God for all eternity. A wage is something I deserve. We deserve to be separated from God for all eternity because of our sin.

However:
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth (demonstrated) his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
--Christ died for our sins. He took the penalty of our sins upon himself. He could do that for two reasons: a) He was God, and b) He was sinless.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
--Christ was the Just One who died for us, the unjust.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
--Propitiation means satisfaction in a legal sense. Christ satisfied the legal demands of God the Father in making payment for our sins. He paid the penalty for the sins that we could not pay. He made an atonement for us.
--He died, buried, and rose again. His resurrection was the great demonstration of his deity, and his victory over death and sin and Satan.

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
--The instruction in the verse is self-explanatory.
But the Lord Jesus is just who he says he is: The Lord Jesus Christ as defined by the Word of God and nothing less than that. He is the second person of the trinity, not Sun Myung Moon or any thing less than the triune Godhead. For in Christ all the fullness of the Godhead dwells.

DHK, if you put your complete trust in Christ I am assured you will be saved! and if you have told me that and make that confession DHK, I believe you are saved! The answer is a "yes".

The answer is yes, only if Christ is Christ, as defined by the Bible.

Im not trying to trap you if that's what you are scared of unless you have concocted a trap that I have not thought of. Why can't you give me a yes or a No? You say you have, where? Where is the Yes or the No?

Are you a J.W.? A Mormon? A Oneness Pentecostal? Everyone of them have a different perspective of Christ than orthodox Christianity does. As long as they hold to those views they cannot be saved. Is Jesus a created being? Michael the archangel? Do those things make a difference to your salvation? Of course they do.
If Christ is not the second person of the triune Godhead then he is not Christ. The cults mentioned above do not believe in Jesus Christ.

 

[Darron Steele]

...There is not a single teaching of Scripture that says a person can be a "believer" and not have repented of living out of harmony with the Lord's will....

Ok lets start with a parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15)! He didn't just believe but he lived with his Father, wanted his portion, went and lived foolishly, ate with the swine, was fed up, came to his right mind, Confessed his sin to his Father, Repented of what he did, and His Father Rejoyced.

He believed then he repented later.

Godly sorrow works repentance!

The bible says several times in Luke 15 that all of heaven will rejoyce over one sinner that repents. It doesnt say joy will be in heaven over one sinner that believes! They already believe!

Ok next!

Acts 2 as I have previously stated! When they found out they had crusifed their God The men were pricked in their hearts and said unto Peter and the Rest of the Diciples Men and Brethern what shall WE DO. Then Peter said Repent...

Again, these men believed in Jesus upon Peter's preaching Then asked what they must do! Then Peter said Repent and...THEN Peter said Save yourselves from this untoward generation Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

OK next

2 Tim 10 Damas had forsaken Paul b/c he loved the present world. He was a believer and a follower but chose rather to love the world than to repent and contend for the faith!

I have given you what you have asked for, and have answered your questions with Yes and No's so would you guys please do the same for me.

Are any of these people called "believers" or "believer" in Scripture? No.

2 Timothy 4:10 says "for Demas forsook me, having loved this present world, and went to Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia" (ASV). You added a lot that the text does not have. He was a believer, but never, ever repented? He was a believer? There is too little in the text.

Acts 2 does not say that those people were "believers" before repenting of their insubordination against Jesus Christ.

Luke 15's prodigal son? The parable does not describe a follower of Jesus Christ. There were no Christians yet. It does not even apply; it is about a wayward son and his father, and shows that God is eager to forgive us.

You have not provided a single Scripture reference of a person or people called "believer" or "believers" on Jesus Christ who still thought they could live out of harmony with His will. You have not provided a single case where a person was a "believer" on Jesus Christ without repentance.

On the other hand, I showed you Scripture references where repentance precedes faith, not after. Faith on Jesus Christ does not exist without repentance from living out of harmony with His will.

 

[lbaker]

13Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.
14When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into[c] the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

18When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money 19and said, "Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."

20Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin."

Wouldn't this account of Simon the Sorcerer be an example of someone who believed but hadn't submitted to Jesus fully?

 

[Stanedglass]

Yes I have answered it. To be saved you need to put your faith in the Christ of the Bible. Only he can save. I have said that many times.
First, I can never answer that question for you. You may make a profession of faith and not be saved. Only God knows your heart. I am not qualified to discern that, especially over the internet.
Second, If your statement is sincere, and I take it at face value, then I still must qualify it on your knowledge of Jesus Christ. If you do not believe that Christ is the 2nd person of the trinity, then no, you cannot be saved. You deny vital truths of the Bible such as the resurrection, the virgin birth, etc. A non-trinitarian is a heretic and cannot be saved as long as he holds to that position. Is that a clear enough statement?

Thank you for answering the question but still really not answering the question! LOL....I was just wanting a yes or no! HAHAHA

Now, I still would like for you to show me where I have to believe that Jesus is the 2nd person in order to be saved!

Does it say it? No! We only have to believe that Jesus is God! (John 8:24)

There are 3 that bare witness in Heaven! The Father, Word, and Spirit and these three are one! Where does it say that the Son is the 2nd person? It doesn't! No where in the Entire Bible is there a passage that says Jesus is the 2nd Person!

If that is what you believe, great! But no need to tell someone they can't be saved without believing that, especially when there is no Scripture! Just b/c you may believe that in order to be saved you must believe that Jesus is the 2nd person, does not make you any less saved! I just don't find it profitable to be flaunting around a necessity when there is no Scripture that explictly proclaims your view!

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

--The instruction in the verse is self-explanatory.
But the Lord Jesus is just who he says he is: The Lord Jesus Christ as defined by the Word of God and nothing less than that. He is the second person of the trinity, not Sun Myung Moon or any thing less than the triune Godhead. For in Christ all the fullness of the Godhead dwells.
The answer is yes, only if Christ is Christ, as defined by the Bible.

DHK, (I dont want anyone to think I'm being mean LOL, just direct) When you say 2nd person, that is somthing YOU are injecting into Salvation. You are putting emphasis on a term that is not even found in scripture.

I challenge you to show me where it says anything about Jesus being the 2nd person! I promise you, if you show one verse I will resign from the baptist board. Again, I'm not arguing that there is no Trinity, I'm just saying that Scripture does not call Jesus Christ the 2nd Person.

Col 2:9-10 Yes, For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

He is the head of ALL principality and power! According to this verse and one's like Rev 1:8 he is the first person. According to verses like John 3:16 he could be considered the 2nd person.

Again my point is that nowhere does it state that Jesus is the 2nd person. That is a man made doctrine to try and understand the Godhead!

Are you a J.W.? A Mormon? A Oneness Pentecostal? Everyone of them have a different perspective of Christ than orthodox Christianity does. As long as they hold to those views they cannot be saved. Is Jesus a created being? Michael the archangel? Do those things make a difference to your salvation? Of course they do.
If Christ is not the second person of the triune Godhead then he is not Christ. The cults mentioned above do not believe in Jesus Christ.

Maybe the Baptist church you attend should be lumped in there as well b/c according to what you are saying about Jesus being the 2nd person, is a completely different perspective than Bible Christianity! (Here is where I need to insert a voice comment so you can understand that I'm not ill with you or angry or pridful! I'm just trying to keep it real and honest).

DHK, i still Love you and am filled with butterflys when you are near even though we don't agree!..LOL(making joke, trying to let everyone know I have a good attitude and I'm smiling)

But the challenge still remains for you to show me where Christ is the 2nd Person with scripture, not opinion!

 

[Agnus_Dei]

DHK, i still Love you and am filled with butterflys when you are near

DHK causes "butterflys"?! OOOOOKay...

Now, I still would like for you to show me where I have to believe that Jesus is the 2nd person in order to be saved!

I don't think you have to have a clear understanding of the Trinity to be saved...It's quite obvious from Holy Scripture that Jesus is the Word made flesh and dwelt among us, as St. John the Apostle bore wittness and recorded and you've demonstrated that you believe this.

Does Holy Scripture define in explicted terms just how the Father, Son and Holy Spirit coexist? No it doesn't, IF it did, then we wouldn't have had the likes of Arianism, Nestorianism or Monophysitism in the Early Church.

In XC
-

 

[DHK]

But the challenge still remains for you to show me where Christ is the 2nd Person with scripture, not opinion!

There is no sense in this discussion. I give you Scripture and you dismiss it.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father[/b[, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
--God has order for a reason. He is a God of order. The order is that The Son is the second person of the trinity. We see the same order in 1John 5:7, which is no coincidence. Why don't you accept Scripture?

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
--No clearer statement could be made concerning the trinity than right here. All three members are mentioned, and in order--the same order as in Mat.28:19, and they are said to be one. If you deny this, you deny the trinity and the teaching of Christ as the second person, and are simply making excuses for your unbelief.

Remember:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
--The Word mentioned in 1John 5:7 is the second person of the trinity and is God. It was he that came to the earth to die for our sins.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

You either accept this Biblical record or you don't. It is a matter of belief or unbelief on your part.

 

[lbaker]

Remember:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
--The Word mentioned in 1John 5:7 is the second person of the trinity and is God. It was he that came to the earth to die for our sins.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

You either accept this Biblical record or you don't. It is a matter of belief or unbelief on your part.

I think you may be a little too dogmatic with this idea of the Persons being assigned numbers.

In John 1:1 the Word (Jesus) is mentioned 1st, and also in John 1:14 which you quoted above.

It seems that if it was critical to understand Jesus as being offically designated with the number two it would be specifically stated somewhere.

I don't know of any verse that says anything like "unless you believe that I am number two you will go to hell".

Without something like that it seems a bit over the top to insist that believing Jesus is assigned a certain number to be a condition of salvation.

Is it like Jesus has a badge or something with a big 2 on it? (just kidding)

 

[DHK]

I think you may be a little too dogmatic with this idea of the Persons being assigned numbers.

In John 1:1 the Word (Jesus) is mentioned 1st, and also in John 1:14 which you quoted above.

Jesus is the only one mentioned here. It is the prologue of John's Gospel, setting out the deity of Christ. Why wouldn't he be mentioned first. The Holy Spirit isn't mentioned at all, and neither is the Father. Your objection is moot.

It seems that if it was critical to understand Jesus as being offically designated with the number two it would be specifically stated somewhere.

It is. Mat.28:19; 1John 5:7

I don't know of any verse that says anything like "unless you believe that I am number two you will go to hell".

Do you then number yourself among the J.W.'s and Mormons, who because of their denial of the trinitarian view of Christ and his deity, will go to Hell?

Without something like that it seems a bit over the top to insist that believing Jesus is assigned a certain number to be a condition of salvation.

Is it like Jesus has a badge or something with a big 2 on it? (just kidding)

I repeat again: If Christ is not the Christ of the Bible, then He is not Christ at all.

 

[Stanedglass]

There is no sense in this discussion. I give you Scripture and you dismiss it.

There's alot of sence in this discussion. You said that you have to believe Jesus is the 2nd person to be saved. I'm calling you out, the bible does not say that!

You have not answered the question though.

Yes, you have given me scripture but the scripture you have given me has not said that you have to believe that Jesus is the 2nd Person to be saved.

You could just admit that the bible just doesn't say that! Sometimes it's a bold step to admit you are wrong about something! LOL!

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father[/b[, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
--God has order for a reason. He is a God of order. The order is that The Son is the second person of the trinity. We see the same order in 1John 5:7, which is no coincidence. Why don't you accept Scripture?

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
--No clearer statement could be made concerning the trinity than right here. All three members are mentioned, and in order--the same order as in Mat.28:19, and they are said to be one. If you deny this, you deny the trinity and the teaching of Christ as the second person, and are simply making excuses for your unbelief.

You seem to be trying to convince me that they are three in one? I'm not challenging your belief in the Trinity! I'm challenging the fact that you said that "One must believe that Jesus is the 2nd person to be saved!"

Neither Mat 28:19 or 1 John 5:7 say that you HAVE to believe that Jesus is the 2nd person to be saved!

The Bible does say we have to believe that He is God (John 8:24), The bible says we have to believe in the Son (John 3:16), The Bible says that we have to Call upon the Name of the Lord (Acts 2:21), The bible says things over and over about being saved BUT NOT ONCE can I find that it says you have to believe that Jesus is the 2nd Person to be saved!

[quoute]Remember:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word mentioned in 1John 5:7 is the second person of the trinity and is God. It was he that came to the earth to die for our sins.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

You either accept this Biblical record or you don't. It is a matter of belief or unbelief on your part.[/QUOTE]


Again, it never said he was the 2nd person, this is Your Opinion! Either you can show me or you can't. So far you can't!

Where is the verse that says you have to believe that Jesus is the 2nd person in the Trinity to be saved?

DHK, I'm still not angry either! I say all this out of a passionate heart. I'm still being clear and straightforward on my remarks. Besides DHK, He that the Father Loves he chaseneth (Heb 6:12) LOL that one's another joke. Hopefully you will get the humor! LOL

 

[DHK]

There's alot of sence in this discussion. You said that you have to believe Jesus is the 2nd person to be saved. I'm calling you out, the bible does not say that!

You have not answered the question though.

Yes, you have given me scripture but the scripture you have given me has not said that you have to believe that Jesus is the 2nd Person to be saved.

You could just admit that the bible just doesn't say that! Sometimes it's a bold step to admit you are wrong about something! LOL!

You seem to be trying to convince me that they are three in one? I'm not challenging your belief in the Trinity! I'm challenging the fact that you said that "One must believe that Jesus is the 2nd person to be saved!"

Neither Mat 28:19 or 1 John 5:7 say that you HAVE to believe that Jesus is the 2nd person to be saved!

God is a God of order and not of confusion. He does not say things at random. They have purpose to them.
Belief is a choice that you must make.

 

[Stanedglass]

God is a God of order and not of confusion. He does not say things at random. They have purpose to them.
Belief is a choice that you must make.

So does God say that you must believe that Jesus is the 2nd person in order to be saved? If so please show me book, chapter, and verse!

If we read things like "You must believe that I Am He" (John 8:24) or I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty (Rev 1:8). Is this random or does this have a purpose?

When you say "One must believe that Jesus is the 2nd person in order to be saved" and have NO scripture that proclaims that, that is what causes confusion! God is not causing this confusion, you are! (I say that in love, I'm not mad or full of pride LOL)

 

[DHK]

So does God say that you must believe that Jesus is the 2nd person in order to be saved? If so please show me book, chapter, and verse!

If we read things like "You must believe that I Am He" (John 8:24) or I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty (Rev 1:8). Is this random or does this have a purpose?

When you say "One must believe that Jesus is the 2nd person in order to be saved" and have NO scripture that proclaims that, that is what causes confusion! God is not causing this confusion, you are! (I say that in love, I'm not mad or full of pride LOL)

When Christ says that He is the Alpha and Omega you have no problem believing Him.

But when twice in Scripture he says that he is the second person of the trinity you have a problem, why is that?
Do you also have a problem with other words that are not in the scripture: theology--study of God
Christology--study of Christ.
Because a word isn't in the Bible, do you deny its doctrine?

Again:
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

If Christ is not the Christ of the Bible then He is not Christ at all. It is that simple.

 

[Stanedglass]

When Christ says that He is the Alpha and Omega you have no problem believing Him.

But when twice in Scripture he says that he is the second person of the trinity you have a problem, why is that?
Do you also have a problem with other words that are not in the scripture: theology--study of God
Christology--study of Christ.
Because a word isn't in the Bible, do you deny its doctrine?

Again:
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

If Christ is not the Christ of the Bible then He is not Christ at all. It is that simple.

I'm going to repost this in the other thread I started "Does one have to believe that Jesus is the 2nd person to be saved"

I think our discussion is totally off topic in this thread. Hope this is not a problem. It also helps me not having to switch back and forth from topic to topic!

Anyone who wishes to chime in in that thread feel free!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Statement irrespective whose: 'I don't know of any verse that says anything like "unless you believe that I am number two you will go to hell".'

All find themselves already in hell; those who get redeemed from it are of God's free grace redeemed from it. Some talk as though they do not know this.