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Are you sure you want to stand on such statements? Here is the end of each account you mentioned.Originally posted by Helen:
These were written accounts, or generations, signed off by the authors at the end of each account as was the custom in those days.
If this were the case, then many of these fellows wrote about their deaths and some wrote about their descendents after their deaths.Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
I believe she's refering to the phrase: "these are the generations of (so-and-so)". The idea is that the sections were "written" by the respective so-and-so.
Verse 6:9a is actually a concluding verse to an account that begins inOriginally posted by Gold Dragon:
Gen 6:9a These are the records of the generations of Noah.
Gen 6:22 Thus Noah did; according to all that God had commanded him, so he did.
Typo. These should be Gen 10:1 and Gen 10:32.Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
Gen 7:1 Now these are the records of the generations of Shem, Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah; and sons were born to them after the flood.
Gen 7:32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, according to their genealogies, by their nations; and out of these the nations were separated on the earth after the flood.
If this were the case, then many of these fellows wrote about their deaths and some wrote about their descendents after their deaths. </font>[/QUOTE]I believe it rather refers to the preceding section...a signature if you will. I used to know some of the technical arguments for this view but they escape me now.Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
I believe she's refering to the phrase: "these are the generations of (so-and-so)". The idea is that the sections were "written" by the respective so-and-so.
The Hebrew word translated as "generations" in the NASB and KJV and "account" in the NIV clearly has an implication towards the descendants and geneologies found after these verses.Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
I believe it rather refers to the preceding section...a signature if you will. I used to know some of the technical arguments for this view but they escape me now.
The Hebrew word translated as "generations" in the NASB and KJV and "account" in the NIV clearly has an implication towards the descendants and geneologies found after these verses. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not saying I agree with that view, I'm just describing what I've read before. Of course if the Hebrew word is supposed to mean "account" then that could be sufficiently ambiguous to allow for reference to the preceding or subsequent section. But I agree with you; "generations" seems to refer more to the geneologies found in the subsequent verses. (By "it" in the phrase "I believe it rather refers" above, I meant that particular idea/view, not necessarily the word for "generations" itself.) But again, I'm no Hebrew scholar.Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
I believe it rather refers to the preceding section...a signature if you will. I used to know some of the technical arguments for this view but they escape me now.
The Hebrew word translated as "generations" in the NASB and KJV and "account" in the NIV clearly has an implication towards the descendants and geneologies found after these verses. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not saying I agree with that view, I'm just describing what I've read before. Of course if the Hebrew word is supposed to mean "account" then that could be sufficiently ambiguous to allow for reference to the preceding or subsequent section. But I agree with you; "generations" seems to refer more to the geneologies found in the subsequent verses. (By "it" in the phrase "I believe it rather refers" above, I meant that particular idea/view, not necessarily the word for "generations" itself.) But again, I'm no Hebrew scholar. </font>[/QUOTE]Agreed.Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
I believe it rather refers to the preceding section...a signature if you will. I used to know some of the technical arguments for this view but they escape me now.
While I'm sure Wiseman has some good points(which I don't plan to read 3000 words to discover), I prefer to the let the biblical text speak for itself. I enjoy reading extrabiblical interpretation to see what interpretational possibilities are out there, but in the end, the bible is my authority.Originally posted by Helen:
Gold Dragon, the point Wiseman and many others now have made is that the earliest tablets found have the author's name AFTER what is written, not before.
Reading the Old Testament : Toledot of Genesis
The overall structure of the Ancestral Story is provided by the repeated use of the Hebrew term toledot. Toledot, sometimes spelled "toledoth," means "generations," and comes from the Hebrew word for giving birth.
...
The term toledot has to do with developments, outcomes, begettings. When found in the phrase "These are the generations of X" it introduces an account of what happens next to the offspring named in the toledot expression. Virtually every time it is found it has a transitional function. It draws the preceding section to a conclusion and at the same time introduces the next section.
The term is found twelve times in Genesis. Ten of those times it is found at important break points in the narrative (the toledot in 10:32 is not in a formula, and the toledot in 36:9 is a repetition of the one in 36:1). These ten toledot units divide cleanly into two collections of five each according to their subject matter; the Primeval Story and the Ancestral Story.
...
The genesis account does not fit the definition of Science. Evolutionary theory does fit the definition of science as it is a theory that appears to fit the existing observational data that have been collected through various means.</font>[/QUOTE] Sorry. But this is where you derail. Evolution is not being observed.Originally posted by Chemnitz:
Let me preface this topic with the statement, I believe that a literal 6 day creation is fact.
Can we honestly teach Genesis as Science?
Particularly since science is defined
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />sci·ence
n 1.
1. The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
2. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
3. Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.
2. Methodological activity, discipline, or study: I've got packing a suitcase down to a science.
3. An activity that appears to require study and method: the science of purchasing.
4. Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.
-dictionary.com
Except for the part about it not being observed but rather being the assumptions of naturalists about what would have been observed if someone had been alive to observe it.In this sense Evolutionary theory is good science.
No. We would be better off reclassifying the study of origins whether biblical, evolutionary, or whatever as "philosophy" since all of them are based ultimately on presuppositions and not observation.Back to my point can we honestly teach Genesis as Science? Wouldn't we better off teaching it as history as Genesis is a historical account?
But, from a theological perspective, they were also written from a first person perspective since it is the Word of God.Originally posted by Chemnitz:
Helen, what exactly do you mean by first person accounts? I ask this because from a grammatical standpoint they are written from the third person.
Electrons now exist. Tests can be run that consistently point to this being true. No test can ever be devised that demonstrates that evolution ever happened. Not directly nor indirectly.Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
Evolution, like much in science involves indirect observation.
Examples
1) No one has ever observed an electron, but indirectly we have seen its effects and can theorize about its properties
Yes. And if a trustworthy relative like a mother told you that she saw the tree being planted the day JFK was shot... and the rings suggested that the tree was 70 years old, would you assume that your mother was lying or actually meant something else? ... or would you suspect that there were problems with the way you were interpretting the evidence?Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
2) No one observed the initial sprouting of very old trees, but we can theorize about their age from the effects of time on its internal structures.
Exactly, no one was around to witness the events first person or to hear God say that and record it in the third person.Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
How would someone be around then to hear God say that, so that it could be third person?
</font>[/QUOTE]The point is that the earliest tablets we have from the Middle East all show the toledoth at the end of the tablet, not at the beginning. This is exactly what we see in Genesis.Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
A lot of your points depend on the function of the hebrew word toledot/toledoth which is the word generations being discussed.
I found this book by Barry Bandstra.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Reading the Old Testament : Toledot of Genesis
the point of all that stuff you refuse to take the time to read (material from scholars of the Bible)) is that the earliest known tablets from the Mesopotamian area all show the toledoth AFTER the writing, not before. This is exactly the form found in Genesis.
As far as the material not looking like first person, you will notice that even in the New Testament, Luke never said "I", but rather referred to himself as Luke. John did not refer to himself as "I", but, rather, as "the disciple that Jesus loved."
If you want to say you simply believe Bible, fine! Genesis presents itself as a series of eyewitness accounts. Take or leave it as that!
The overall structure of the Ancestral Story is provided by the repeated use of the Hebrew term toledot. Toledot, sometimes spelled "toledoth," means "generations," and comes from the Hebrew word for giving birth.
...
The term toledot has to do with developments, outcomes, begettings. When found in the phrase "These are the generations of X" it introduces an account of what happens next to the offspring named in the toledot expression. Virtually every time it is found it has a transitional function. It draws the preceding section to a conclusion and at the same time introduces the next section.
The term is found twelve times in Genesis. Ten of those times it is found at important break points in the narrative (the toledot in 10:32 is not in a formula, and the toledot in 36:9 is a repetition of the one in 36:1). These ten toledot units divide cleanly into two collections of five each according to their subject matter; the Primeval Story and the Ancestral Story.
...