What ineffable twaddle.
Apparently you have bought into the nonsense of "spiritual Israel." Don't associate your confusion with the Book of Hebrews, please.
God bless.
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Can Exodus 32:33 Ever Refer to Believers?
- Thread starter Saved-By-Grace
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What ineffable twaddle.
Apparently you have bought into the nonsense of "spiritual Israel." Don't associate your confusion with the Book of Hebrews, please.
God bless.
We are now spiritual israel of God though!
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
Hebrews 3:12 in context, 10:26 till the end, and 1 John 5:16, and others, are clear that an "believer" who turns away from the Lord, is clearly warned of their consequences. Those addressed as "brother" in the contexts, are those who have been saved. We have to look more to what the Word of God says, than personal "theology". What is the point in warning a believer, like in Revelation 3:5, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.". Surely this also means that there are those who will not "overcome", and whose names will be "blotted out of the Book of life"?
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
you are 100% right, this guy Darrell seems to just want to argue without knowing what the Bible actually says:
"And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God."
used of ALL believers in the Lord Jesus.
He is just holding to Dispy understanding....
Means that Jesus will never blot a real saved out of the book!
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
Here is something to look into. Gehenna is used about 12 times in the New Testament. In all but one (James 3:6), it is used as a warning to believers. For example:
"But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the gehenna."
(Matthew 5:22)
What do you make of this?
for references, Gehenna Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary
Nope.
Nope.
Nope.
Nope.
If you want to address the points raised that show your doctrine is that of demons, do so.
Don't be scared. Though that would be a natural instinct to someone not yet trusting Christ.
Already showed you the texts make it clear unbelievers are in view.
Try to address that point.
Instead of talking behind my back.
Sorry, no, they are Hebrew brethren.
In the case of 1 John 5 they are in danger of physical death, not eternal separation.
That's funny, because you are ignoring what the Word of God says.
Just like a false teacher to be a hypocrite.
The warning is not to a believer, it is to those who need to overcome. Let's let John define overcoming:
1 John 5
King James Version (KJV)
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Since I know you won't read this no point in keeping it short, so I will show you why overcoming in Revelation refers to being saved:
Revelation 3:20-22
King James Version (KJV)
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
False teachers cannot recognize who is lost or who is saved in Scripture. Just so you know, one is not saved until they overcome, and this is through faith in Christ.
What it surely means is that you have no understanding of Salvation in Christ.
And why you would want to proof text something so contrary to the name you have chosen is a bit of a mystery. Perhaps you are doing the undercover dodge, using deception to teach your demon doctrine.
God bless.
When you can address the arguments posed perhaps you might have something. Until then you can only talk behind my back.
Again, we are the Body of Christ. Apparently you have never bothered to read Galatians either, and do not understand the extensive teaching concerning Jew and Gentile.
Put it back in its context:
Galatians 6:12-16
King James Version (KJV)
12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
That one is "spiritually a Jew" doesn't mean they become Jews, it simply means they fulfill that which Jews should have fulfilled according to God's principles.
That's a debatable issue. There are two in view, those who walk according to this rule, and "the Israel of God." It is more likely that in view is a blessing on Gentiles and Jews who abide by his teaching.
We are the Body of Christ, a distinct group from both Jew and Gentile.
God bless.
Actually it isn't Dispensational teaching, it is Biblical Teaching. I can't help it if Dispensationalists get it right more often than the men you follow.
I also believe in the Trinity, does that mean I am Catholic?
The Body of Christ did not replace Israel, that is evident:
Romans 11:25-27
King James Version (KJV)
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
So what happens then? The Church will no longer be this spiritual Israel you speak of?
No, Israel will be, as a physical Nation...saved. They will enter into the Millennial Kingdom.
God bless.
Just as you mistakenly identify believers in your other proof texts, even so here...no one is saved.
The reason is because no-one is yet being eternally indwelt, no-one is eternally redeemed, and no-one is at this point privy to the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ.
Only unbelievers are ever said to go into eternal punishment.
I hope one day you will understand that.
God bless.
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
I dealt with the topic at hand using scripture. If you don't like my response. I can do nothing to help you.
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
Another interesting passage is in Luke chapter 12:
"Then Peter said to Him, “Lord, do You speak this parable only to us, or to all people?” And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more" (41-48)
Peter's question to the Lord, as to who these words are addressed to, are already answered in verse 22, "Then He said to His disciples, “Therefore I say to you...".
Note Jesus' words to His Disciples and to all who believe in Him, that those who live immoral, careless lives that are more like the unsaved than followers of Jesus, "and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers". The words "will cut him in two", are from the one Greek word, "διχοτομέω", which is used for "reference to be made to that most cruel mode of punishment...by which criminals and captives were cut in two. But in the text the words which follow, and which imply that the one thus 'cut asunder' is still surviving, oppose this interpretation; so that here the word is more fitly translated cut up by scourging, scourge severely" (Thayer, Greek lexicon). Not only this, but, "appoint him his portion with the unbelievers", of whom Revelation 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. "
"Then Peter said to Him, “Lord, do You speak this parable only to us, or to all people?” And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more" (41-48)
Peter's question to the Lord, as to who these words are addressed to, are already answered in verse 22, "Then He said to His disciples, “Therefore I say to you...".
Note Jesus' words to His Disciples and to all who believe in Him, that those who live immoral, careless lives that are more like the unsaved than followers of Jesus, "and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers". The words "will cut him in two", are from the one Greek word, "διχοτομέω", which is used for "reference to be made to that most cruel mode of punishment...by which criminals and captives were cut in two. But in the text the words which follow, and which imply that the one thus 'cut asunder' is still surviving, oppose this interpretation; so that here the word is more fitly translated cut up by scourging, scourge severely" (Thayer, Greek lexicon). Not only this, but, "appoint him his portion with the unbelievers", of whom Revelation 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. "
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
So, what of passages like Hebrews 3:7-15, do we simply ignore and disregard what this says? This is written to believers;
"Therefore (as the Holy Spirit says, Today if you will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the rebellion, in the day of testing in the wilderness: When your fathers tested me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Therefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end; While it is said, Today if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation."
And the other from 1 John?
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
Passages like Malachi 3:16, Luke 10:20, and Revelation 20:15 shows that "the Book of Life" is for those who are saved and not for any unsaved person. In Revelation 20, verse 12, we read of "books", which were for the Judgement of the Righteous and unrighteous, "judged by what was written in the books".
"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done"
"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done"
Did you have a point with all of the copy and past of that post?
The fact remains, only unbelievers go to Hell.
The fact remains, when one is eternally redeemed and eternally indwelt, they are then believers who will never be blotted from the Book of Life. When unbelievers stand before God at the Great White Throne...their names are already gone:
Revelation 20:11-15
King James Version (KJV)
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The ones who stand before God here are...the dead.
They have no life.
That cannot be said of believers. Believers are made alive, and with a life they never had before, which is eternal life through the indwelling of Christ:
Ephesians 2
King James Version (KJV)
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
Colossians 2:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Those who go into Hell never had life, and never will, because they remain separated from the source of eternal life, God. And His indwelling Spirit is God's guarantee of our salvation:
Ephesians 1:12-14
King James Version (KJV)
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
You won't understand your salvation until you understand you have been made alive on an eternal basis through relationship with God. Those who are saved are in Christ, and can trust His Gospel.
God bless.
Spoken like a true Jehovah's Witness. This is how they teach this passage as well.
Christ ministers to Israel first and foremost:
Matthew 15:24
King James Version (KJV)
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
You are assuming that as Christ teaches, born again believers are in view. The problem with that, though, is there was not one born again believer within the hearing of Christ's teachings.
To be a Christian, one must be trusting in Christ as the Risen Savior, that is simply the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
You are not doing that. Just like the Disciples of Christ were not doing that:
Mark 16:9-14
King James Version (KJV)
9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
You have not a clue as to why the doctrine you teach is damnable demon doctrine, or that it denies the Salvation of Christ for the Church.
You really should run on down to Other Denominations and join your SDA and Catholic brethren down there.
And again there is a clear invitation to salvation given by the Lord, just as it is in the case of overcoming:
Revelation 21:6-8
King James Version (KJV)
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Note again the contrast between those who will respond to this invitation to overcome...and those you present as unbelievers.
He is not your God until you overcome.
You are not His son until you overcome. And overcoming is through Faith in Christ:
1 John 5
King James Version (KJV)
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
So understand this, your proof text has two people in view, those who suffer the Second Death, and those who overcome through faith in Christ. And again, you are displaying that you are not trusting Christ.
There is another invitation given to the lost in the next Chapter of Revelation:
Revelation 22:17-19
King James Version (KJV)
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
You add and take away from the Word of the Book of this Prophecy. That's a dangerous place to be, my friend.
Make certain His calling and election, make certain you have taken of the Water of Life:
John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Have you overcome?
Do you see that no-one had received of the Spirit here? Do you see that the Promised Spirit was not given until Christ was glorified?
Forsake the false gospel you teach.
God bless.
Just like a false teacher, keeps asking the same questions that have already been answered, yet he will not address the answers:
Again, not a scenario of bad Christian/Good Christian. Apparently you think salvation is achieved if you are good. That is works-based salvation and damnable demon doctrine.
If you pay attention, you will see that the Writer draws a comparison between the unbelievers of Old Testament Israel and the unbelievers of Israel in his day:
Hebrews 10:28-29
King James Version (KJV)
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
In view are those that rejected the Covenant of Law (called here Moses' Law, also called the First Covenant in Hebrews) and those who reject...
1. Christ, as they have not believed on Him, but trod Him under foot;
2. His Sacrifice, by which He...was sanctified;
3. The New Covenant;
4. And the ministry of the Spirit of God, the Comforter.
And you think a believer is in view.
Totally absurd.
How about responding to this?
You will not because you cannot. It is a very simple passage, and you, again...make those clearly identified as unbelievers to be Christians in danger of losing eternal life, which is not eternal if it can be lost.
And it is not a gift if it can be lost.
And it is you that saves yourself if you can mess it up.
Forsake your false gospel.
God bless.
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