Can God originate a thought?

[Winman]

No, you are reading into the text.

I'm not reading anything into it, I am accepting God's statement as literal. You are the one who is arguing it is figurative, but that does not agree with the context, which is literal.

no, it contradicts the Scriptures that teach that God knows everything.

I know of only three verses that say God knows all things, and taken in context may not be speaking of all things that take place.

well, let me help you if you don't understand. Don't write me off because of my Calvinistic beliefs. This isn't about Calvinism. I gave you an explanation on why God would say things like this and still know the answer. He is dealing with us and speaking to us that way. The Bible is clear that God already knows the answer so assuming he doesn't because He asks is wrong.

I do not find your arguments convincing, you simply say you are correct. You rarely post scripture as I do to support your views. You do quote Calvinists, trust me, I already know what a Calvinist will say, you all parrot each other.

Really, he is in all three...hmmm don't sound bound to time to me. God is eternal.

Who said he is bound in time? Not me.

They teach that God doesn't know future decisions of men.

I disagree with this.

Understand. I don't agree 100% with Calvinism, but more than you would. But with the matter here, we have very clear passages that teach that God knows everything. So assuming that He doesn't know something(future choice) because He asks for the answer would contradict the truth that God knows everything.

You presume that God knows everything and then explain away scripture which suggests in some instances he doesn't.

 

[jbh28]

I'm not reading anything into it, I am accepting God's statement as literal. You are the one who is arguing it is figurative, but that does not agree with the context, which is literal.

It doesn't say God doesn't know, so you are reading that he doesn't know into the text. You are making an assumption until you can quote where God said He didn't know.

[removed comment about Calvinism. this isn't about Calvinism]

Who said he is bound in time? Not me.

good, I thought you had said that...

He is also in time, John described Jesus as he which is (present), and which was (past), and which is to come (future) in Rev 4:2. That shows Jesus IN time friend.

and...

I am simply pointing out there are many verses that seem to suggest that in some instances God knows things in time. .

I disagree with this.

Well good, so what are you arguing about then if God knows all including the future.

You presume that God knows everything and then explain away scripture which suggests in some instances he doesn't.

Because the Scriptures teach that God knows everything.

Acts 15:18
Known to God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.

Psalm 44:21b "he knows the secrets of the heart."

John 21:17
He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep.

Jesus asked, but already knew the answer.

1 John 3:19-20
And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

Job 36:17 "Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?"

Psalm 147:5 "Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite."

 

[Winman]

It doesn't say God doesn't know, so you are reading that he doesn't know into the text. You are making an assumption until you can quote where God said He didn't know.

He said he WILL know, which shows he didn't know yet. Give it up, you are wrong and you know it.

good, I thought you had said that...
and...

I said this shows him in time, but I never said he was bound in time. You like to read into what people actually say.

Well good, so what are you arguing about then if God knows all including the future.
Because the Scriptures teach that God knows everything.

And sometimes they say he doesn't.

Acts 15:18
Known to God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

His works. It doesn't say he knows all our works.

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.

He is speaking of what he will do, not what we do.

Psalm 44:21b "he knows the secrets of the heart."

Yes, but it almost always says after he searches.

John 21:17
He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep.

Jesus asked, but already knew the answer.

I actually agree with you here, but it was Peter who said this, not the Lord.

I will answer the rest later.

 

[jbh28]

He said he WILL know, which shows he didn't know yet. Give it up, you are wrong and you know it.

more assumptions...

I said this shows him in time, but I never said he was bound in time. You like to read into what people actually say.

Ok...

And sometimes they say he doesn't.
His works. It doesn't say he knows all our works.

He is speaking of what he will do, not what we do.

Yes, but it almost always says after he searches.

I actually agree with you here, but it was Peter who said this, not the Lord.

I will answer the rest later.

Still avoiding that God knows everything as the Bible teaches. You are wrong until you can supply a place that says the Lord didn't know something. Assuming He doesn't isn't ample evidence.

 

[Winman]

more assumptions...

Ok...

Still avoiding that God knows everything as the Bible teaches. You are wrong until you can supply a place that says the Lord didn't know something. Assuming He doesn't isn't ample evidence.

I need to go to bed, that is why I said I will answer the rest later, but it is you that inserts your assumptions into scripture. For instance, when Peter said the Lord knows everything, what is the context? Jesus was asking if Peter loved him, he was not asking Peter if he was omniscient. In fact, Jesus had told Peter and the other disciples he did not know the exact day or hour he would return, but only his Father, so Peter knew there was one thing Jesus didn't know. But you assume Peter is speaking of omniscience.

And not too cool to leave off Psa 44:21a where it says, "Shall not God SEARCH this out?"As I have said many times before, you Calvinists believe people are stupid, but all you do is show dishonesty here.

 

[jbh28]

I need to go to bed, that is why I said I will answer the rest later, but it is you that inserts your assumptions into scripture. For instance, when Peter said the Lord knows everything, what is the context? Jesus was asking if Peter loved him, he was not asking Peter if he was omniscient. In fact, Jesus had told Peter and the other disciples he did not know the exact day or hour he would return, but only his Father, so Peter knew there was one thing Jesus didn't know. But you assume Peter is speaking of omniscience.

And not too cool to leave off Psa 44:21a where it says, "Shall not God SEARCH this out?"As I have said many times before, you Calvinists believe people are stupid, but all you do is show dishonesty here.

Ok, that's enough from you Mr. Open theist. You can't seem to have a normal conversation without resorting to name calling. I gave you plenty of examples of the Bible saying that God knows everything, yet you want to assume(while denying it) that God doesn't know something even though the Bible says He does. I'm not assuming anything. I gave plenty of passages that DIRECTLY say that God knows everything. You give passages that do not say that He doesn't know something. You assume because He asks that He doesn't. That's an assumption on your part. Obviously you have no argument against me so you have resorted to name calling and erroneous claims of my dishonesty.

"Shall not God SEARCH this out,he knows the secrets of the heart"

There, you happy now? It still shows that you are incorrect that God doesn't know everything. He is searching, yet it says the knows the secrets of the heart.

Come back when you can bring a decent argument to the table. The name calling will not be tolerated. Erroneous claims of dishonesty will not be tolerated. I'm just shocked that a baptist would believe that God doesn't have all knowledge. What kind of weak god is that, that doesn't even know the future. (of course you will say that he does, but then argue that he doesn't...)

 

[webdog]

I'm just shocked that a baptist would believe that God doesn't have all knowledge. What kind of weak god is that, that doesn't even know the future

You tell me...

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

I know you will revert back to the "this is the human side of Christ", but in the same way you cannot separate the Trinity away from God, you cannot separate Christ away from God. Why can't you just accept the mystery aspect of this without needing it all pre-packaged into a nice little theological box? Fact: God is omniscient. Fact: There is a tension in Scripture with God reacting to man within time. Just accept it and worry about the logistics when you get to Heaven.

 

[jbh28]

You tell me...

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

I know you will revert back to the "this is the human side of Christ", but in the same way you cannot separate the Trinity away from God, you cannot separate Christ away from God. Why can't you just accept the mystery aspect of this without needing it all pre-packaged into a nice little theological box? Fact: God is omniscient. Fact: There is a tension in Scripture with God reacting to man within time. Just accept it and worry about the logistics when you get to Heaven.

Ok, so God is omniscient. You say that's a fact. Very good. What winman is doing is assuming because God asks a question that He doesn't know the answer. He is taking the language too literal with assumptions which contradicts the fact that God is omniscient.

As far as Jesus Christ, I have given ample evidence to support my claim. Jesus was completely God and completely Man, but there were aspects of his deity that he "sat aside." For instance, Jesus walked around from place to place, which God is omnipresent. Jesus died, but God is eternal and cannot die. So there are times that Jesus "limits" his omniscience while here on earth. To use that to prove that God isn't omniscience isn't valid any more than me trying to prove that God isn't eternal because Jesus died.

And I'm not looking to put it any "neat box." All I'm doing is accepting Scripture for what it says without assuming things that contradicts Scripture. Sure, there are places where God deals with man in time because man is in time, but that doesn't mean that God is bound to time. And of course that doesn't mean that God isn't omniscient. What is being said is when God says that he now "sees" what Abraham will do, it means that He didn't know. Well that's not true. God did know, just that Abraham hadn't proven himself yet.

Wimnam keeps trying to make this into a Calvinism thing. I have never seen anybody so obsessed with Calvinism. This has nothing to do with Calvinism.

 

[Luke2427]

As some of the others have said, I don't speculate on matters that are not clearly revealed. Some texts indicate God knows all, while others indicate he "searches" or "tests" men's hearts, or reacts, relents and responds within time and creation. I accept both as truth in the same manner I accept the trinity (3 but 1). I'm ok with mystery and faith in this regard.

I refuse to draw hard and fast conclusions about such mysteries, such as "if God knew it before creating it then he MUST have determined it to be." The bible doesn't teach that logical conclusion, it is just one we have invented by our own finite reasoning and speculation. The bible CLEARLY reveals God is holy and completely separate from evil and doesn't even tempt men to evil. To even suggest that He originated the intent of the tempter, determined the temptation and even decreed that the sinner would commit the sin just because finite human logic "demands" it extremely short sighted in my view.

You will not give a straight answer. Do you deny that God has always known all there has ever been to ever know about everything?

Why can't you just say, "yes"?

When you admit that you do not believe in the omniscience of God, we can move on.

As long as you maintain, what seems to me to be, a cowardly ambiguity we are stuck.

Just answer the question.

 

[Skandelon]

You will not give a straight answer.

This from a guy who took two months to define one term and still won't make a distinction between an active and permissive decree.

Do you deny that God has always known all there has ever been to ever know about everything?

Why can't you just say, "yes"?

Why can't you answer the question of the OP regarding the origin of sin? When I ask you if God is the originator of evil, why can't you just say, "yes"? If the knowledge of Satan's intent eternally existed in the mind of God then it must have originated in God, right?

When you admit that you do not believe in the omniscience of God, we can move on.

Like the term "sovereignty" the term "omniscience" has to be recognized as a finite term to describe an infinite being and thus falls short to fully encompass or contain our God.

The problem comes when people use such terms to box God in by making manmade finite logical constructs such as "if God knows everything before creating everything then He MUST have predetermined it." This is very linear thinking and is not supported biblically.

 

[Luke2427]

This from a guy who took two months to define one term and still won't make a distinction between an active and permissive decree.

Why can't you answer the question of the OP regarding the origin of sin? When I ask you if God is the originator of evil, why can't you just say, "yes"? If the knowledge of Satan's intent eternally existed in the mind of God then it must have originated in God, right?

Like the term "sovereignty" the term "omniscience" has to be recognized as a finite term to describe an infinite being and thus falls short to fully encompass or contain our God.

The problem comes when people use such terms to box God in by making manmade finite logical constructs such as "if God knows everything before creating everything then He MUST have predetermined it." This is very linear thinking and is not supported biblically.

And you STILL avoid the question!

Do you believe that God has always known all there is ever to know about everything or NOT??????

 

[Skandelon]

And you STILL avoid the question!

Do you believe that God has always known all there is ever to know about everything or NOT??????

Tell you what, I'll answer that question as soon as you answer mine. I asked my question first. Is God is the originator of evil? Why can't you just say, "yes"? If the knowledge of Satan's intent eternally existed in the mind of God then it must have originated in God, right?

Waiting...what is your answer to my question?

 

[Luke2427]

Tell you what, I'll answer that question as soon as you answer mine. I asked my question first. Is God is the originator of evil? Why can't you just say, "yes"? If the knowledge of Satan's intent eternally existed in the mind of God then it must have originated in God, right?

Waiting...what is your answer to my question?

I have answered that in no uncertain terms.

Nothing can exist without God. That ought to be simple enough for a small child to grasp.

God is the ULTIMATE or REMOTE cause of evil.

Now, your turn.

 

[Skandelon]

I have answered that in no uncertain terms.

Yes, you did answer it, but you didn't answer it with a simple "yes," now did you? No, you appealed to mystery. Do I need to go back and find the post and quote you?

Why did you appeal to mystery? Because you don't want to make God the originator of evil, but now you say things like this here...

Nothing can exist without God.

Are you now admitting that evil has eternally existed in the mind of God? God had the intent of a child rapist/murder existing in his mind from eternity and thus originating there? Is that your contention now? Because before you just appealed to mystery.

That ought to be simple enough for a small child to grasp.

You have admitted many times that these matters are very difficult and deep...so much so that you have appealed to mystery with regard to the origin of evil more than once, but now all of the sudden your words regarding these matters should be "simple enough for a small child?" Let's be reasonable brother. Please don't patronize others. It is not becoming of a fellow believer.

God is the ULTIMATE or REMOTE cause of evil.

And by that you mean, what exactly? The intent of Dahmer to rape/murder/molest/eat children eternally existed and thus originated in the mind of God or not? Yes or no? Answer that and then we can move on?

 

[Luke2427]

Yes, you did answer it, but you didn't answer it with a simple "yes," now did you? No, you appealed to mystery. Do I need to go back and find the post and quote you?

Why did you appeal to mystery? Because you don't want to make God the originator of evil, but now you say things like this here...

Are you now admitting that evil has eternally existed in the mind of God? God had the intent of a child rapist/murder existing in his mind from eternity and thus originating there? Is that your contention now? Because before you just appealed to mystery.

You have admitted many times that these matters are very difficult and deep...so much so that you have appealed to mystery with regard to the origin of evil more than once, but now all of the sudden your words regarding these matters should be "simple enough for a small child?" Let's be reasonable brother. Please don't patronize others. It is not becoming of a fellow believer.

And by that you mean, what exactly? The intent of Dahmer to rape/murder/molest/eat children eternally existed and thus originated in the mind of God or not? Yes or no? Answer that and then we can move on?

So you still lack the courage of your convictions to just ADMIT that you do not believe in the omniscience of God.

Just have the guts to say you do not believe God is as big as orthodox Christianity has believed for nearly two thousand years.

Why don't you have the courage to accept your appropriate label?


See folks, Skandelon is a thinker. He knows God CANNOT be BIG and Calvinism NOT be true.

He is right. In order for God to be TRULY all-knowing, Calvinism MUST be true. He knows this. Some of the independents and adherents to this new nameless theology which are not the thinkers that Skandelon is do not know this. But Skandelon does.

So, what is Skandelon's only option as a non-Calvinist thinker??

He does what all other non-cal INTELLIGENT people have done. He SHRINKS God.

God MUST be smaller if Calvinism is to be untrue. He CANNOT be omniscient and Calvinism NOT be true.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What What.....Are you talking to the "Folks" out there now like Van d Man now?!? Dont do that, please dont do that!

 

[Robert Snow]

Seems to me like if you say God cannot originate a thought, you are limiting God.

 

[Rippon]

This Is Not My Original Thought

Seems to me like if you say God cannot originate a thought, you are limiting God.

Did it ever occur to you that nothing ever occurs to God?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Did it ever occur to you that nothing ever occurs to God?

Hey Rip & Robert.....see thats a key component in this whole megilla. We Calvinists believe in Gods total & complete Sovereignty....I cant stress that more.

 

[Luke2427]

Hey Rip & Robert.....see thats a key component in this whole megilla. We Calvinists believe in Gods total & complete Sovereignty....I cant stress that more.

Or in other words... we believe that God is ACTUALLY God.