Can Jesus Cast Out Saved Believers?

[Hark]

I see that those who are trying to climb up another way are those trying to come to God through their own efforts...
"Tares".

When tested, they will follow the voice of strangers.
They will be led away, fall from the faith once delivered unto the saints and they will never grow in grace and knowledge.

They will never be led into all truth, because they do not have the Spirit of God in them to show it to them.

They do for why they are grieving the Holy Spirit in them.

When they believe the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit again apart from salvation by that sign of tongues for private use; hence the voice of strangers, and thus they are suffering a thief to break through, God will permit that strong delusion to occur. They are defiling the temple of God which is their bodies for believing that lie, and being left behind to be chastened by the Father Hebrews 12:4-14 & the Son 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 in removing the works that deny Him off of that foundation, so they can be received by Him after the great tribulation BUT their spirits are still saved per 1 Corinthians 3:15 in that day

I agree in the highlighted.

But there are also false teachers among God's children who were never born again, who profess him with the lips and in works ( their behavior ) they deny that they really know Him ( Titus 1:16 ).
I could cite examples of these throughout history and into present-day.

We know who they are, and many of them are on television and on radio.
They promise the believer liberty, but they are the servants of sin.

They fly around in jets, make money off the backs of Christians and generally try to bring them into bondage under a system of works that will never let them go...
If the Lord were to leave them in it.

We are not to condemn anyone as not saved for that would be dangerously close to denying the Lord that bought them

Paul addressed the falling away from the faith in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-15

Paul is still addressing those who have gone astray & not follow after the tradition taught of us but are disorderly like they are in those movements of the spirit with confusion, madness & falling down per lack of self control, for why we are to obey the commandment with His help to withdraw from them...2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 BUT Paul did not judge them as never saved or even as the enemy, but to admonish them as brothers still. 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15

See that in the scripture or not? It is plainly written meaning that truth.

 

[AustinC]

John 10:16 cites another fold that did not follow His voice, does it not?

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

In context, I align that with the sheep that climbed up another way in following a stranger's voice per John 10:1-5

This is referring to false prophets that lead believers to another means for life other than Jesus for why Jesus is stressing Him as being the only door per John 10:7-11 He said all those that come between Him and them is the thief for why the sheep that follow His voice do not follow them. John 10:8 That can be applied to the RCC and those who promote the movement of the spirit to chase after & receive those spirits after a sign, even a sign of tongues proclaiming them to be the Holy Spirit when He is not, even though they address Him in prayer & worship to receive Him again and again and again. That is why Jesus said this.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber....7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

So the sheep that followed the stranger's voice in John 10:1-5 is the sheep that went astray for why they are not of the fold that followed His voice but He still must bring them because they are His sheep by believing in Him for why they that get left behind, will be resurrected after the great tribulation as they WILL hear His voice literally as their King of kings and be of the one fold & one shepherd for the millennium reign.

Only the Lord can confirm that to you to see that every element of that chapter has been applied to that presentation and scripture elsewhere supports that there are 2 kinds of believers in His kingdom per Matthew 5:19 & 2 Timothy 2:20.

You can hear the voice of Satan and follow him. There are many folds where Satan is master. Any teaching where man "must" before God can...is a voice of Satan.

Jesus chosen sheep, given to him by God the Father, are saved out of all the other sheep by God's gracious choice and they hear their Saviors voice and respond to his word.

John 6, John 10 and John 17 make this very clear. Matthew 25 shows God removing the sheep from the goats.

God does the work. God is not bound by us so that we must cooperate before God can act.

 

[AustinC]

John 10:16 cites another fold that did not follow His voice, does it not?

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

In context, I align that with the sheep that climbed up another way in following a stranger's voice per John 10:1-5

This is referring to false prophets that lead believers to another means for life other than Jesus for why Jesus is stressing Him as being the only door per John 10:7-11 He said all those that come between Him and them is the thief for why the sheep that follow His voice do not follow them. John 10:8 That can be applied to the RCC and those who promote the movement of the spirit to chase after & receive those spirits after a sign, even a sign of tongues proclaiming them to be the Holy Spirit when He is not, even though they address Him in prayer & worship to receive Him again and again and again. That is why Jesus said this.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber....7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

So the sheep that followed the stranger's voice in John 10:1-5 is the sheep that went astray for why they are not of the fold that followed His voice but He still must bring them because they are His sheep by believing in Him for why they that get left behind, will be resurrected after the great tribulation as they WILL hear His voice literally as their King of kings and be of the one fold & one shepherd for the millennium reign.

Only the Lord can confirm that to you to see that every element of that chapter has been applied to that presentation and scripture elsewhere supports that there are 2 kinds of believers in His kingdom per Matthew 5:19 & 2 Timothy 2:20.

John Bunyan's "Pilgrims Progress" wonderfully expresses this idea when Christian enters via the wicket gate, as he sees a couple jump over the wall. Later those same ones who tried to enter on their own are thrown into hell when they attempt to enter the Celestial City.

 

[WAJungleMonkey]

I understand your application and I can agree in the part of referring to the Marriage Supper because of this reference..

Luke 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: 18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. 19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

The following verse seems to segue to sitting down with the O.T. saints at this Marriage Supper table in heaven.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

But while verse 30 also sort of ties in with what you are saying in how the O.T. saints & N.T. saints will be sitting together at the table, it doesn't in light of how those who profess Him are cast out for being workers of iniquity.

While verse 26 can be applied to how they take communion...believing that His Presence is in the bread & wine and or believing as some Presbyterian Churches begins their communion service by saying, "We come into His Presence today.." which denies Him as being in us always... for we are not walking away from His Presence after communion.

Does it matter that we say what we mean and not say anything or do anything like communion to that effect as denying Him in us always and not receiving Him any more ?

Matthew 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

It does seem it matters. And if they do this, & get left behind. it does not mean they are not saved or not His as the Father will chasten them in that way before receiving per Hebrews 12:4-11 even for the ones left behind & not just in regards to now..

I suspect that Hymenaeus and Philetus in 2 Timothy 2:16 is in relation to 2 Timothy 2:15 for believers to read the scripture for their edification while Hymenaeus and Philetus were using tongues for private use such as self edification which is not of Him at all.. I get that as being of the devil per 2 Timothy 2:26 as that which can be applied to Hymenaeus and Philetus for being among them leading others astray.

If you are aware of how modern day tongues assumed to be for private use because it is gibberish nonsense and no foreign language of men, then note how they always associated that tongue by another drink of the One Spirit; hence another baptism with the Holy Ghost by that sign of tongue thus saved believers are committing spiritual adultery per Matthew 12:39

This be they that known the depths of Satan for which they speak in that church at Thyatira as Jesus address those that have not known that tongue in verse 24 to hold fast in Revelation 2:18-25

If you consider the five foolish virgins that were pounding on the door for the Lord to let them in, they were out to the market seeking to be filled with oil ( Holy Spirit ) while the prudent knew that they were for why they were ready to go and they were not. So for believing they can receive the Holy Spirit again by that sign of tongue and others receive the Holy Spirit again in other signs of confusion like slain in the spirit & holy laughter movement & Pensacola Outpouring, & Toronto's Blessings and Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade back around the 1980's & etc... these saved believers risk being left behind, unless they turn to Jesus Christ for help at that throne of grace to help them to repent and stop chasing after those spirits & shun that vain & profane babblings to pray normally before the Bridegroom comes as greater is he that is in them than he that is in the world 1 John 4:4.

So there is a reason for why believers will be left behind as that is the same reason the churches are to excommunicate.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

So Jesus can eat the Marriage Supper with abiding saints in sincerity and in truth.

1 Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.......11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

I am not following you. You're talking about various things are not connecting well with the point of the conversation. You seem to be idly responding to your own thoughts that have nothing to do with my points. Maybe you are involved in too many separate conversations here and can't focus well? I don't know... I haven't been reading your comments to others...
You are also simply reiterating your old points without interacting with anything I quoted or said. I think where the few relevant comments you made are failing is in making assumptions about salvation, the Kingdom, and the end times that do not exist in any of the texts you quoted. Unless you give me something to interact with, I am going to step away from this thread.

 

[Iconoclast]

Saved does not equal lost.

Believer does not equal unbeliever.

By definition it is not possible.

Understanding the scriptures on the Covenant of redemption clears it up before this question is asked.

 

[Hark]

You can hear the voice of Satan and follow him. There are many folds where Satan is master. Any teaching where man "must" before God can...is a voice of Satan.

The "must" in according to John 10:16 is on Jesus, not man for why He must bring those not of the fold that follow His voice.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. KJV

As for any teaching where man must before God can.... being the voice of Satan, there is a "man should trust the Lord for all things to avoid looking to trusting in themselves to do His work in them and thru them" and sometimes I find I need His help to do even that.

Jesus chosen sheep, given to him by God the Father, are saved out of all the other sheep by God's gracious choice and they hear their Saviors voice and respond to his word.

John 6, John 10 and John 17 make this very clear. Matthew 25 shows God removing the sheep from the goats.

God does the work. God is not bound by us so that we must cooperate before God can act.

Explain how there can be empty seats at the King's Supper table? That means they were saved but made excuses for the cares of this life not to come when the Bridegroom comes calling. See Luke 14:15-24

That is what the cost of discipleship is really about when Jesus expounded on that to the multitude in Luke 14:25-35 It was not about leaving their lives and loved ones in serving Him on earth, but being ready to leave their lives & lived ones on earth.

 

[Hark]

John Bunyan's "Pilgrims Progress" wonderfully expresses this idea when Christian enters via the wicket gate, as he sees a couple jump over the wall. Later those same ones who tried to enter on their own are thrown into hell when they attempt to enter the Celestial City.

We are to prove everything by Him by the scripture in the KJV, even Christian literary works and even Christian hymnals and songs.

What you share from that literary does not reprove nor align with John 10:16, but John 10:16 does the other way.

 

[Hark]

I am not following you. You're talking about various things are not connecting well with the point of the conversation. You seem to be idly responding to your own thoughts that have nothing to do with my points. Maybe you are involved in too many separate conversations here and can't focus well? I don't know... I haven't been reading your comments to others...

You are also simply reiterating your old points without interacting with anything I quoted or said. I think where the few relevant comments you made are failing is in making assumptions about salvation, the Kingdom, and the end times that do not exist in any of the texts you quoted. Unless you give me something to interact with, I am going to step away from this thread.

Well, the 2 side points are in response to 2 of your respective side points as quoted in my post in response to that one post which was broken up in replies with 3 posts from me..

However, post # 53 & post # 54 does include scripture in response to your quote. You can click on "Click to expand" on your quote in my posts of #53 & #54 to read how I am responding to what you had posted, if you still wish to continue in following the discussion between you & me as it does relate to the topic of those who are cast out but still saved as I see His words says..

It is important because how believers judge those left behind may very well be how they judge those alive today as not saved or not a true believer when I say His words says they still are but have gone astray as He will not lose anyone given to Him but some will be left behind to be received later on after the great tribulation.. unless they repent with His help & by His grace..

 

[AustinC]

The "must" in according to John 10:16 is on Jesus, not man for why He must bring those not of the fold that follow His voice.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. KJV

As for any teaching where man must before God can.... being the voice of Satan, there is a "man should trust the Lord for all things to avoid looking to trusting in themselves to do His work in them and thru them" and sometimes I find I need His help to do even that.



Explain how there can be empty seats at the King's Supper table? That means they were saved but made excuses for the cares of this life not to come when the Bridegroom comes calling. See Luke 14:15-24

That is what the cost of discipleship is really about when Jesus expounded on that to the multitude in Luke 14:25-35 It was not about leaving their lives and loved ones in serving Him on earth, but being ready to leave their lives & lived ones on earth.

Jesus brings in those sheep the Father has given him. He must because God has chosen/elected them to be his sheep. John 6, John 10 and John 17 all present the same truth...that God chose his sheep and keeps his sheep unto eternity. Not one will be lost.

 

[AustinC]

We are to prove everything by Him by the scripture in the KJV, even Christian literary works and even Christian hymnals and songs.

What you share from that literary does not reprove nor align with John 10:16, but John 10:16 does the other way.

Hark, John Bunyan forgot more scripture than you know. His allegory is filled with scripture, which shows the reader where the text of God's word clearly expresses what Bunyan is showing in allegorical form. In this it seems you show your ignorance of Bunyan and his writings.

 

[AustinC]

Appropriate for this thread. A selection from Pilgrims Progress:

“Christian left his path to go to Mr. Legality’s house for help. As Christian neared the hill, he was struck by how high and foreboding the hill appeared. One side of the hill hung precariously over the path that wound its way around it, and Christian feared that the overhanging hill would fall on him.

Filled with fear, Christian stopped his journey and stood still, wondering what he should do. His burden now seemed heavier to him than it was just moments before he had taken this detour off the path that Evangelist had instructed him to follow.

Flashes of lightning came out of the hill, and Christian was afraid that he would be burned. Christian began to sweat and quake with fear. He was sorry that he had taken Mr. Worldly-Wiseman’s counsel.”...

...“The person to whom you were sent for relief, whose name is Legality, is the son of the slave woman who, with all her children, is still in bondage. The mountain that you feared would fall on your head is Mount Sinai. Now if the slave woman and all her children are in bondage, how can you expect them to set you free from your burden?”

 

[Hark]

Jesus brings in those sheep the Father has given him. He must because God has chosen/elected them to be his sheep. John 6, John 10 and John 17 all present the same truth...that God chose his sheep and keeps his sheep unto eternity. Not one will be lost.

I agree even though scripture has Jesus casting behind saved believers for not abiding in Him as His disciples ( John 15:1-8 ) & thus not being ready ( Luke 12:40-49 ) to face the fire coming on the earth and why in that day of verse 13 in 1 Corinthians 3:10-17, their spirits will be saved per verse 15 when they die in verses 16-17.

All believer are saved.. and in that respect of that fold, but that fold is divided up by those who follow His voice and those that went astray building on that foundation works that deny Him for why they are being denied & disqualified to dine with Him. Nevertheless that foundation remains as that seal of adoption does too for why no one will lose their salvation, but are at risk of losing the rewards of their crowns as well as at risk of being a castaway as Paul stated that could happen to himself too.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

If you consider how some of those that disagree as saying those left behind were never saved by being false prophets or living in unrepentant sin, as if they never sinned in their lives, I should wonder how they judge the believers in the land of the living?

Indeed, by their words, they must wonder if they are saved too and whether or not those who struggle in the flesh with temptations, if they should give up & just say it is hopeless when I would say to them that is why we are to run that race by faith in Jesus Christ to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily in walking in the light in fellowship with the father & the Son..

 

[Hark]

Hark, John Bunyan forgot more scripture than you know. His allegory is filled with scripture, which shows the reader where the text of God's word clearly expresses what Bunyan is showing in allegorical form. In this it seems you show your ignorance of Bunyan and his writings.

Only referring to how you are applying his writings to mean as the same thing in regards to the topic at hand for those climbing up another way in John 10:1-16. It is not.

 

[Hark]

Appropriate for this thread. A selection from Pilgrims Progress:

“Christian left his path to go to Mr. Legality’s house for help. As Christian neared the hill, he was struck by how high and foreboding the hill appeared. One side of the hill hung precariously over the path that wound its way around it, and Christian feared that the overhanging hill would fall on him.

Filled with fear, Christian stopped his journey and stood still, wondering what he should do. His burden now seemed heavier to him than it was just moments before he had taken this detour off the path that Evangelist had instructed him to follow.

Flashes of lightning came out of the hill, and Christian was afraid that he would be burned. Christian began to sweat and quake with fear. He was sorry that he had taken Mr. Worldly-Wiseman’s counsel.”...

...“The person to whom you were sent for relief, whose name is Legality, is the son of the slave woman who, with all her children, is still in bondage. The mountain that you feared would fall on your head is Mount Sinai. Now if the slave woman and all her children are in bondage, how can you expect them to set you free from your burden?”

Granted, that would apply to commitment to follow Christ and the Promise Keepers' program and such where the Christian in their zeal are led into bondage in doing His work in us by the deeds of the law rather than living by faith in Jesus Christ to do it in being their Good shepherd to help them to follow Him. They need Him to forgive them for taking on those yokes of bondages and to set them free to rest in the New Covenant to them to do all His works so they can rest in Him for all things.

This link addresses such bondages.

Discerning Matthew 5:33-37

But in all respect, it cannot be applied to John 10:1-16 for how those saints are going astray.

Incidentally, if neither believer repent of those iniquities, they are still saved but excommunicated from attending the Marriage Supper in Heaven, but still saved to be resurrected later on after the great tribulation for I agree He cannot lose anyone..

 

[WAJungleMonkey]

Well, the 2 side points are in response to 2 of your respective side points as quoted in my post in response to that one post which was broken up in replies with 3 posts from me..

However, post # 53 & post # 54 does include scripture in response to your quote. You can click on "Click to expand" on your quote in my posts of #53 & #54 to read how I am responding to what you had posted, if you still wish to continue in following the discussion between you & me as it does relate to the topic of those who are cast out but still saved as I see His words says..

It is important because how believers judge those left behind may very well be how they judge those alive today as not saved or not a true believer when I say His words says they still are but have gone astray as He will not lose anyone given to Him but some will be left behind to be received later on after the great tribulation.. unless they repent with His help & by His grace..

Brother, please read my posts again. You have seemed to miss the point. Ask questions if you need to.

I wasn't making any side points. I was using the example from history to show that while there may be various levels of honor in Heaven, it is not a separation of the "barely saved" and the "super saved" like you seem to be suggesting. All who are saved are equals in Christ and all receive the full inheritance, as shown with the (Galatians 3:28-29) quote.

The part about Communion was also not a side point. It was to add to the same point that all who are saved are part of the Communion of Christ and thus part of the Marriage Supper, because it is Christ Himself. Same point with my (Ephesians 5:30-32) quote.

You mention the virgins who did not have their lamps trimmed- they do not make it to Heaven. The door is shut and there is no more time for repentance. This is not about the rapture, but about the Last Judgment. How is this true? Read the following parable about the talents (Matthew 25:26-34, 41-46), it is related to that same point. The wicked servant who did not produce more talents was thrown into the darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30). Then Jesus says that the sheep and goats will be separated and the goats (the lazy virgins, the wicked servant, etc.) will be thrown into the fire. This is all proving the error of your point that there are "saved people in Heaven who do not get a seat at the Table."

My part about Hymenaeus and Philetus was also about showing that there are not "vessels of dishonour" in Heaven. The explanation of the context was not a random side point, but to explain to you this point. Your idea of H & P teaching on tongues is clearly wrong because the text plainly states that they were teaching that the Resurrection had already happened (2 Timothy 2:18)- nothing related to tongues. This false teaching is what Paul called "profane and vain babblings"- people teaching things that they know nothing about.

Brother, the thing you are not grasping is that those who remain workers of iniquity until the Judgment do not get into Heaven. It doesn't matter if they claimed to be saved and believe in Christ because their works will prove that they were not of Him. They end up in Hell if they do not repent. All who get to Heaven are fully accepted and get a seat at the Table. Anyone not at the Table is outside the Kingdom and in Hell. You quote Scripture, but you read too many things into them that are not there. You are reading from the perspective of some false doctrines you have picked up somewhere.

 

[Hark]

Brother, please read my posts again. You have seemed to miss the point. Ask questions if you need to.

I wasn't making any side points. I was using the example from history to show that while there may be various levels of honor in Heaven, it is not a separation of the "barely saved" and the "super saved" like you seem to be suggesting. All who are saved are equals in Christ and all receive the full inheritance, as shown with the (Galatians 3:28-29) quote.

There is no barely saved or super saved. There is only saved believers and then His disciples that followed Him. That is what separates the vessels unto dishonor from the vessels unto honor to be received first at the marriage Supper of the Lamb while what makes saved believers the vessels unto dishonor as left behind to be resurrected later on to serve the King of kings.

There is the least in the kingdom of heaven that break even the least of His commandments and teach others so that are separated from the great that keeps His commandments and teaches others so. This is how they are both saved for why they are in His kingdom and yet what separates them in His kingdom.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The part about Communion was also not a side point. It was to add to the same point that all who are saved are part of the Communion of Christ and thus part of the Marriage Supper, because it is Christ Himself. Same point with my (Ephesians 5:30-32) quote.

Hebrews 10:1-32 warns believers about one way to take communion in an unworthy manner for why God will judge His people for doing that but yet as they are still His people. Hebrews 10:26-31 for shorter reading.

You mention the virgins who did not have their lamps trimmed- they do not make it to Heaven. The door is shut and there is no more time for repentance. This is not about the rapture, but about the Last Judgment. How is this true? Read the following parable about the talents (Matthew 25:26-34, 41-46), it is related to that same point. The wicked servant who did not produce more talents was thrown into the darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30). Then Jesus says that the sheep and goats will be separated and the goats (the lazy virgins, the wicked servant, etc.) will be thrown into the fire. This is all proving the error of your point that there are "saved people in Heaven who do not get a seat at the Table."

Why are there empty seats at the table then in Luke 14:15-24 ? See the why Jesus is warning believers to not be ensnared by the cares of this life in Luke 21:33-36? Then see saved believers being warned & cut off for not being ready in Luke 12:40-49. Until you address those references for why Jesus is saying that, you are ignoring why Jesus does cast out saved believers for not being ready.

My part about Hymenaeus and Philetus was also about showing that there are not "vessels of dishonour" in Heaven. The explanation of the context was not a random side point, but to explain to you this point. Your idea of H & P teaching on tongues is clearly wrong because the text plainly states that they were teaching that the Resurrection had already happened (2 Timothy 2:18)- nothing related to tongues. This false teaching is what Paul called "profane and vain babblings"- people teaching things that they know nothing about.

You may not have discerned that with Him yet, but He may reveal that to you yet, regarding tongues. Also how do you apply this call to former believers & carnal believers to repent for how they can become vessels unto honor? Note where that leaves the vessels unto dishonor for not repenting.. as still in His House.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Brother,

the thing you are not grasping is that those who remain workers of iniquity until the Judgment do not get into Heaven. It doesn't matter if they claimed to be saved and believe in Christ because their works will prove that they were not of Him. They end up in Hell if they do not repent. All who get to Heaven are fully accepted and get a seat at the Table. Anyone not at the Table is outside the Kingdom and in Hell. You quote Scripture, but you read too many things into them that are not there. You are reading from the perspective of some false doctrines you have picked up somewhere.

Brother, I love you in Christ and I am sharing scripture that believers are overlooking and cannot rightly divide it only because of their errant belief that those left behind were never saved, but they were and are but just disqualified as reprobates to be received as vessels unto honor to sit at the Marriage Supper table.in Heaven but they will be resurrected after the great tribulation in serving the King of kings when He reigns on earth; hence in that part of the kingdom of heaven.

 

[37818]

Are you applying this as meaning you are not saved yet but on your way to salvation as a disciple that continues to love one another? If not, then you are NOT saying salvation begins at discipleship and so I ask how you are applying scripture to mean?

The idea that I am applying John 13:35 and 1 John 4:7-8 to your notion that I am not saved is an evil on your part. My view point is true discipleship begins with salvation. You do not accept that understanding fine. But that does not in itself prove my understanding is wrong. The lost can wrongly think that they are disciples trusting in their own works, Matthew 7:22.

 

[AustinC]

There is no barely saved or super saved. There is only saved believers and then His disciples that followed Him. That is what separates the vessels unto dishonor from the vessels unto honor to be received first at the marriage Supper of the Lamb while what makes saved believers the vessels unto dishonor as left behind to be resurrected later on to serve the King of kings.

There is the least in the kingdom of heaven that break even the least of His commandments and teach others so that are separated from the great that keeps His commandments and teaches others so. This is how they are both saved for why they are in His kingdom and yet what separates them in His kingdom.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.



Hebrews 10:1-32 warns believers about one way to take communion in an unworthy manner for why God will judge His people for doing that but yet as they are still His people. Hebrews 10:26-31 for shorter reading.



Why are there empty seats at the table then in Luke 14:15-24 ? See the why Jesus is warning believers to not be ensnared by the cares of this life in Luke 21:33-36? Then see saved believers being warned & cut off for not being ready in Luke 12:40-49. Until you address those references for why Jesus is saying that, you are ignoring why Jesus does cast out saved believers for not being ready.



You may not have discerned that with Him yet, but He may reveal that to you yet, regarding tongues. Also how do you apply this call to former believers & carnal believers to repent for how they can become vessels unto honor? Note where that leaves the vessels unto dishonor for not repenting.. as still in His House.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.



Brother, I love you in Christ and I am sharing scripture that believers are overlooking and cannot rightly divide it only because of their errant belief that those left behind were never saved, but they were and are but just disqualified as reprobates to be received as vessels unto honor to sit at the Marriage Supper table.in Heaven but they will be resurrected after the great tribulation in serving the King of kings when He reigns on earth; hence in that part of the kingdom of heaven.

It is clear from the dialogue here that you struggle to understand grace, which saves us.
Like the Judaizers in Galatia, you seem to think the initial moment of salvation is by grace, but the rest of the relationship with God is then by works. Paul very clearly squashes that idea in his letter to the Galatians. He then expands upon this in his letter to the Romans.

It is not uncommon for new believers, who were saved out of the law by grace, to fall back into the law after they are saved. Your dialogue here points to your struggle to understand God's grace.

 

[Yeshua1]

It is clear from the dialogue here that you struggle to understand grace, which saves us.
Like the Judaizers in Galatia, you seem to think the initial moment of salvation is by grace, but the rest of the relationship with God is then by works. Paul very clearly squashes that idea in his letter to the Galatians. He then expands upon this in his letter to the Romans.

It is not uncommon for new believers, who were saved out of the law by grace, to fall back into the law after they are saved. Your dialogue here points to your struggle to understand God's grace.

Yes, he does seems to say its saved by graced, but then in a probation, which we work at ourselves to keep!

 

[Squire Robertsson]

As the OP is now banned for 6 months this thread is closed.