Can mankind understand the gospel message?

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
2) You still don't get it do you? The fact that these immature people, who are still considered by Paul to be saved, are UNABLE to understand the spiritual things that are in view in verse 14, PROVES that understanding these spiritual things was obviously not required in order to be saved. Make sense now?

Let me say it once more so I know you got it. Saved, born again, believers in Corinth are unable to understand the same spiritual matters that the "natural man", who is unsaved, cannot understand. So, both; immature saved people and all unsaved people; are not able to understand these spiritual truths. Therefore, these spiritual things cannot be in regard to salvation otherwise those immature believers who were UNABLE to recieve it would not be saved. OK? Ok

Bill,

I don't think many exegetes would agree with you here. The "wisdom" in view is the message of the crucified Christ, as is clear from chapter 1 and the first part of 2. The natural man does not understand that kind of wisdom. That is why the Jews ask for a sign and the Greeks consider it foolishness. That is why the rulers of this world crucified Christ. But the Corinthian believers are different. That is why Paul tells them they have the mind of Christ and they need to act like it (Cf. 2:17ff.). The believers understood the message and had responded to it (Cf. 1:24, 26-27; 2:5). Their faith was real; their actions were out of line with that faith.

So the context of this passages refutes your understanding yet again.

BTW, notice in 1:24 the existence of a call that brings enlightenment that distinguishes the "Called" from the rest. Yet another scriptural evidence of the effectual call that many would like to deny.

 

[William C]

The point of this post is to show that mankind can clearly see and understand even the most basic of revelations from God as we see in Romans 1 through the creation. What is it that makes you Calvinists believe that mankind can understand and clearly see God's revelation of himself through creation, but they can't understand and clearly see the revelation of himself through the Word.

Which is easier to understand and clearly see? The creation, or someone on earth speaking our language and fully revealing his plan and desires for his creation? The tree in the back yard, or the bible on your self? The waterfall or the preacher? The seasons of the year or a gospel tract?

How can you Calvinists possibly believe that lost humanity can understand the invisiable qualities, divine attibutes and eternal power of our God by looking at a Ponderosa Pine tree, but they can't understand the words of the incarnate deity, who simply calls them to believe and repent??????

The truth is, they do understand, which is exacly why they will stand condemned on that final day of judgement as ones WITHOUT EXCUSE for their refusal to obey that which they so clearly saw and understood.

And if they can clearly see it and understand it, they most certainly can believe it and repent as seen evident in Acts 28:26-28 and many others.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
What is it that makes you Calvinists believe that mankind can understand and clearly see God's revelation of himself through creation, but they can't understand and clearly see the revelation of himself through the Word.

The statements of Scripture and the evidence of human history.

Which is easier to understand and clearly see? The creation, or someone on earth speaking our language and fully revealing his plan and desires for his creation? The tree in the back yard, or the bible on your self? The waterfall or the preacher? The seasons of the year or a gospel tract?

Here, yet again, you demonstrate a false understanding. The problem is not their cognitive understanding. They understand the language/preacher/tract/whatever. The problem is their spiritual understanding. Until you start talking about the same thing that Scripture does, this dichotomy will continue for you.

How can you Calvinists possibly believe that lost humanity can understand the invisiable qualities, divine attibutes and eternal power of our God by looking at a Ponderosa Pine tree, but they can't understand the words of the incarnate deity, who simply calls them to believe and repent??????

See above ... more of the same misunderstanding.

The truth is, they do understand, which is exacly why they will stand condemned on that final day of judgement as ones WITHOUT EXCUSE for their refusal to obey that which they so clearly saw and understood.

Finally, something that is biblically correct, as Romans 1 tells us.

And if they can clearly see it and understand it, they most certainly can believe it and repent as seen evident in Acts 28:26-28 and many others.

But their eyes are blinded, their wills are turned against God by sin. Acts 28:26-28 is proof that we are right ... that God is working in the hearts of people to effectually draw them to himself.

 

[William C]

Where does the Bible separate "spiritual understanding" from "cognitive understanding"?

You can't go to 1 Cor. 2:14 because the very "spiritual matters" that Paul refers to can't be understood by the imature believers as seen clearly in Chapter 3. If they can't understand it, it must not be required for salvation. And once again. 1 Cor 2 is about the one's ability to understand spritual matters AFTER they have recieved the Spirit, its not about HOW one recieves the Spirit. Gal. 3:14 tells us that the Spirit comes through faith. And 2 Thess. 2:14 tells us that God calls us through the gospel. 1 Cor 1:24 is merely emphasising the fact that God now calls both Jews and Gentiles as a group, not that God calls some individuals and not others as you assume from your presuppositions brought to this text. You once again like to take statments that are meant for groups in general and apply them individually. Just as you can't do that with the election of Israel you can't do that here with the calling of God.

Man is made up of heart (soul), mind and body. This what we are called to Love God with, to separate them out into parts as you have attempted to do makes the gospel into a circus of confusion that only someone with who has been dogmatized by Calvinism could begin to deal with, and not so effectively at that. To understand with with mind is to reason. The minds job is to understand things, that cannot be seprated from the rest of man's capasities.

What you are confusing is lost man's ability to understand things, and a saved man's ability to have spiritual decernment about spiritual matters. Some saved men obviously don't have spiritual decernment as Paul points out in 1 Cor. 3, but that does not mean they don't have the ability to understand the gospel and believe as you falsely assume.

Spiritual descrenment is not required for salvation as is proven by the immature believers on Corith.

[ April 24, 2003, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Brother Bill ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother Bill,

Your ideas are correct; sinners would have a 'bag full of excuses' at the Great White Throne Judgment, [Rev. 20:11] if they did not understand the vital importance of salvation through Christ. [John 3:16]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Where does the Bible separate "spiritual understanding" from "cognitive understanding"?

John 8:43; 1 Cor 2:14; etc.

You can't go to 2 Cor. 2:14 because the very "spiritual matters" that Paul refers to can't be understood by the imature believers as seen clearly in Chapter 3.

I already addressed this. Did you read it? The spirital matters Paul is talking about are those defined n 1 and 2, the message of the crucified Messiah. JUst glancing through chapter 3, I see no reference to understanding at all. Paul devotes chpater 3 to calling the believers to live in teh mind of Christ 2:16, which they received from God. It is that mind that sets them apart from the unsaved who cannot understand and it is that mind that shoudl be driving their actions.

2 Cor 2 is about the ones ability to understand spritual matters AFTER they have recieved the Spirit, its not about HOW one recieves the Spirit.

Then why does PAUL disagree with you? HE says that these spiritual matters are the wisdom of the crucified Messiah which teh JEws and Greeks reject while the "Called" Accept. He defines what the spiritual matters are.

Gal. 3:14 tells us that the Spirit comes through faith.

This is a reference to the sealing and indwelling work fo the Spirit, not the regenerating work.

And 2 Thess. 2:14 tells us that God calls us through the gospel.

We agree.

1 Cor 1:24 is merely emphasising the fact that God now calls both Jews and Gentiles as a group, not that God calls some individuals and not others as you assume from your presuppositions brought to this text. You once again like to take statments that are meant for groups in general and apply them individually. Just as you can't do that with the election of Israel you can't do that here with the calling of God.

Notice how you did not say what the text says. The text says that the called accept Christ. These statements are meatn for individuals because a group does not accept anything as evidence by the nation of Israel. The only presuppositions I Brought to the text are that this text is the authoritative word of God and it means what it says.

This text draws a distinction between the JEws and Greeks who reject Christ and the "Called" WHO accept him. YOU can't just pretend like it doesn't exist.

Man is made up of heart (soul), mind and body. This what we are called to Love God with, to separate them out into parts as you have attempted to do makes the gospel into a circus of confusion that only someone with who has been dogmatized by Calvinism could begin to deal with, and not so effectively at that. To understand with with mind is to reason. The minds job is to understand things, that cannot be seprated from the rest of man's capasities.

I am not sure why you post this here since we are talking about salvation. This appears to have no relevance. Perhaps you can desmonstrate it. I have not separated man into parts. He exists as a whole and that whole has been affected by sin. It is you who have separated him into parts, insisting that certain parts are not affected by sin while others are. That is unconvincing to me.

Spiritual descrenment is not required for salvation as is proven by the immature believers on Corith.

UNfortunately for you, Paul disagrees with you, as is evidenced by the text.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
sinners would have a 'bag full of excuses' at the Great White Throne Judgment, [Rev. 20:11] if they did not understand the vital importance of salvation through Christ. [John 3:16]

I am not sure you can make this point from Scripture. The Bible tells us that no sinner has an excuse because they all know about God. There is no excuse for anyone. But that does not alter the biblical revelation. The truth is still the truth.

YOU seem intent on undermining the will of the unbeliever. HE willfully rejects. He is not forced to. We strongly affirm man's willing sinfulness and rejection of Christ.

 

[ScottEmerson]

"The New Testament is based exclusively upon the possibility of a new order absolutely beyond human thought; and therefore, as a prerequisite to that order, there must come a crisis that denies all human thought." - Karl Barth

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Therefore, these spiritual things cannot be in regard to salvation otherwise those immature believers who were UNABLE to recieve it would not be saved. OK? Ok

I have to admit that there are a lot of things that you write that I have a difficult time following.

I think you are reading into the text your bias. Obviously there can be an overlap between things that a saved and unsaved person do not understand in the Bible. Even after being saved, we never attain perfect knowledge.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
John 8:43; .

This passage is easily answered by looking at his audience and reading John 12:37-41.

I already addressed this. Did you read it? The spirital matters Paul is talking about are those defined n 1 and 2, the message of the crucified Messiah. JUst glancing through chapter 3, I see no reference to understanding at all. Paul devotes chpater 3 to calling the believers to live in teh mind of Christ 2:16, which they received from God. It is that mind that sets them apart from the unsaved who cannot understand and it is that mind that shoudl be driving their actions.

Yes, I read it but you ignore the transition that Paul makes in verse 10 when he says, BUT God has revealed it to US (those who believe as spoken of in 1:21) by his Spirit. Paul goes on to say the Spirit searches the DEEP THINGS OF GOD. And then he says that we have recieved not the spirit from the world but the Spirit from God SO THAT we can clearly understand what he has ALREADY freely given to us.

What's the order? He gives it to us through faith, then we understand the deep things of what has already been given.

He is talking about the spritual desernment of believers now.

1 Cor 2 is about the ones ability to understand spritual matters AFTER they have recieved the Spirit, its not about HOW one recieves the Spirit.

Then why does PAUL disagree with you? HE says that these spiritual matters are the wisdom of the crucified Messiah which teh JEws and Greeks reject while the "Called" Accept. He defines what the spiritual matters are.

No, Paul disagrees with you because fully understanding this "wisdom" is not required for salvation, it is are result of one who has the Spirit indwelling in them through faith and who has become mature in the that faith they profess.

Gal. 3:14 tells us that the Spirit comes through faith.

This is a reference to the sealing and indwelling work fo the Spirit, not the regenerating work.

Convenient. Do you have any Scriptural support for this view, especially in light of the fact that Paul is speaking about salvation in Gal. 3? Or do you just get to apply verses to whatever you deem acceptable?

Man is made up of heart (soul), mind and body. This what we are called to Love God with, to separate them out into parts as you have attempted to do makes the gospel into a circus of confusion that only someone with who has been dogmatized by Calvinism could begin to deal with, and not so effectively at that. To understand with with mind is to reason. The minds job is to understand things, that cannot be seprated from the rest of man's capasities.

I am not sure why you post this here since we are talking about salvation. This appears to have no relevance. Perhaps you can desmonstrate it. I have not separated man into parts. He exists as a whole and that whole has been affected by sin. It is you who have separated him into parts, insisting that certain parts are not affected by sin while others are. That is unconvincing to me.

That doesn't surpise me. You talked about the difference between man's cognitive ability to understand and seprated that from man's spiritual ability to understand. Understanding comes from man's mind by reason. Spiritual decernment comes from the Spirit. Where does the bible teach that man must have Spiritual decernment before he can respond to the simple call of the gospel?

You like to use 1 Cor 2 but as I have pointed out the people in Corinth, who Paul regards as brothers in the faith, do not have this spiritual discernment spoken of in verse 14 yet. Notice what Paul says to them:

1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal.

As you can clearly see, the believers were not spiritually discerning.

You are confusing man's inability to understand the milk of the gospel, with man's inability to understand the meat of the Word, which even immature believers struggle with as demonstrated in this text, much less those who don't have the Spirit as a guide.

Spiritual descrenment is not required for salvation as is proven by the immature believers on Corith.

UNfortunately for you, Paul disagrees with you, as is evidenced by the text.

Where? Where in this text does it teach that Spiritual decernment is necessary for salvation?

Paul says that the Corinthian brothers were UNABLE to understand the Spiritual matters. Does that mean they are unsaved?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
John 8:43; .

This passage is easily answered by looking at his audience and reading John 12:37-41.</font>[/QUOTE]You asked for a distinction. I gave it. YOu can't deny that it exists. JOhn 12 doesn't help you though because JOhn 12 merely confirms the point that is true from other passagse. The hardening argument just doesn't work in light of Scripture.

Yes, I read it but you ignore the transition that Paul makes in verse 10 when he says, BUT God has revealed it to US (those who believe as spoken of in 1:21) by his Spirit. Paul goes on to say the Spirit searches the DEEP THINGS OF GOD. And then he says that we have recieved not the spirit from the world but the Spirit from God SO THAT we can clearly understand what he has ALREADY freely given to us.

Duh Bill ... But the things that the Spirit reveals are the truths about the crucified Messiah. All of your obfuscation will not change that. The reference to the deep things of God is a reference to what the Spirit knows, not to what he reveals. Consider Rom 8:26 where the Spirit intercedes for us when we do not know what we should pray for becuase he knows the mind of God. The Spirit's depth of knowledge is infinite. The revelation he is talking about in chapters 1-2 and salvation material and this is what the text says.

He is talking about the spritual desernment of believers now.

No he's not. He's talking about their carnality and why their carnality is incompatible with the mind that they received. Come on Bill, read the text and accept it. Put your system aside for a little while just to absorb yourself in the text.

No, Paul disagrees with you because fully understanding this "wisdom" is not required for salvation, it is are result of one who has the Spirit indwelling in them through faith and who has become mature in the that faith they profess.

Again, the wisdom he is talking about is the wisdom rejected by the world, that the world did not "know," but has been understood and received by the called, those who are saved. This wisdom is required for salvation. You cannot be saved apart from understanding the wisdom of God. YOu are trying to separate 2:10-14 from 1:18-2:9 and you can't do that. Paul did not write a bunch of disjunctive thoughts. He wrote one message all connected. The issue of maturity clearly deals with behavior--their division that has resulted from pride. Paul is telling them that they received a new mind, the mind of Christ, and that they should live like it.

Do you have any Scriptural support for this view, especially in light of the fact that Paul is speaking about salvation in Gal. 3? Or do you just get to apply verses to whatever you deem acceptable?

The NT is the Scriptural support. The fact that the Holy Spirit is setting apart to belief (2 Thess 2:13 and 1 Peter 1:2) clearly shows that the work of hte Holy Spirit in the life precedes the faith. You get to apply whatever verses are applicable to the topic.

That doesn't surpise me. You talked about the difference between man's cognitive ability to understand and seprated that from man's spiritual ability to understand. Understanding comes from man's mind by reason. Spiritual decernment comes from the Spirit. Where does the bible teach that man must have Spiritual decernment before he can respond to the simple call of the gospel?

John 8:43; 1 Cor 2:14; etc. These verses, among others, teach that man's mind is closed to the gospel. Consider 2 Cor 4:4 where their eyes have been blinded to the gospel, meaning they can't see it. God must open their minds, but apparently there are some whose mind have not been opened by God. That sounds an awful lot like some people's mind is affected by sin and it is God who must open it. To say that God has opened everyone's mind would be a contradiction of this passage. Consider Eph 4:17-19 that I brought up the other day where men's minds are corrupted by sin. There are just so many passages about this.

You like to use 1 Cor 2 but as I have pointed out the people in Corinth, who Paul regards as brothers in the faith, do not have this spiritual discernment spoken of in verse 14 yet.

Only becuase you have misdefined spiritual discernment. Paul says that that "things of the Spirit" are the things of God specifically related to the crucifixion of Christ.

As you can clearly see, the believers were not spiritually discerning.

But they were believers which sets them apart from "natural man" in 2:14.

You are confusing man's ...

No I am not. You are not following the point that Paul is making becuase of your unwillingness to allow the text to dictate your theology. You have decided what the text must mean rather than letting the text decide what you believe. This is not confusion on my part at all.

Where? Where in this text does it teach that Spiritual decernment is necessary for salvation?

When it talks about the wisdom of Christ crucified that they believed (1:18-2:5). Also see Rom 10:17; 1 Thess 1:4ff.; 1 Peter 1:22ff., etc. The message about Christ is indispensable for salvation.

Paul says that the Corinthian brothers were UNABLE to understand the Spiritual matters. Does that mean they are unsaved?

No, he says that they were babes in Christ. Your mistake is in thinking that in 3:1-2, the meat is a reference to the previous things about the mystery, the wisdom of God. Their problem was their growth after salvation, similar to Heb 5:12 when they should have been teachers but needed someone to teach them. Your failure to understand the flow of argument has messed you up on this. 3:1ff. starts a new section applying 2:6-16. In 2:6-16 Paul discusses the reality of their spiritual life; in 3:1ff. he applies it by showing them that they are not living ih the mind of Christ. Study study study ... it will help tremendously.

We have probably said all that is profitable on this. The points have been made and discussed. Let's wind it down.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
You asked for a distinction. I gave it. YOu can't deny that it exists. JOhn 12 doesn't help you though because JOhn 12 merely confirms the point that is true from other passagse. The hardening argument just doesn't work in light of Scripture.

I don't deny that there is a distinction between those in the 1st century during Christ's time on earth who could believe and those who could not. The question is WHY? Why can't they believe Larry????

John 12: 37-41, which you ignore, tells us exactly why they can't believe and it has absolutely nothing to do with Total Depravity. It has to do with the Judicial and temporary hardening of God.

All you can say is ,"The hardening argument just doesn't work in light of Scripture."

My response is this, "At least hardening is taught in scripture, Total Depravity is a man made doctrine supported by those who hold to presuppositions based upon mislead theologian's ideas about the nature of man."

Tell me why you think that the Pharisees of John 8 cannot understand the words of Jesus?

Here is John's answer: "Therefore, they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."

Sounds like hardening is the reason they can't understand to me.

What is your answer Pastor Larry?

 

[William C]

Larry you also mentioned 2 Cor. 4:4. Notice it says exactly who is being blinded--UNBELIEVERS. They are not blinded until they are presented with the truth and decide not to believe it.

Plus, I think this text COULD be rendered: "But God hath blinded the minds of the unbelievers of this world"

So, it may not be an act of Satan's blinding those who are unbelievers, but a judicial act of God upon those who continually refuse to believe the message.

Either way, it doesn't support your view of Total Depravity.

 

[William C]

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where? Where in this text does it teach that Spiritual decernment is necessary for salvation?
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Larry said: When it talks about the wisdom of Christ crucified that they believed (1:18-2:5). Also see Rom 10:17; 1 Thess 1:4ff.; 1 Peter 1:22ff., etc. The message about Christ is indispensable for salvation.

None of these verses address my question. I know the message about Christ is indispensable for salvation, what is your point? I asked is having Spiritual Discernment necessary to be saved? The believers in Corinth didn't have any spiritual discernment yet they were saved.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
That only God can instill ideas and concepts into the the human spirit.

Amen.

Only God can regenerate a spiritually dead sinner. </font>[/QUOTE]How do you explain the deception of Eve in the Garden? Did God instill the idea in Eve by which she sinned? Did God instill the idea in Adam by which he too sinned?

You're simply blowin' smoke again!

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
Brother Bill,
It is clear that Calvinism does not recognize that man was given by God the ability to hear the gospel message, or the ability to reason concepts or to form belief based on the presented information. That only God can instill ideas and concepts into the the human spirit. That is their message!

It's clear once again that you do not know what you are talking about. Man can hear and reason concepts about the gospel. Unregenerate man will always reject it willfully, having heard it. Why is that so difficult to understand? Why can you not move on to dealing with our position honestly? </font>[/QUOTE]That is what I've done, and you simply do not like it because it opposes your own beliefs.

"Man can hear and reason concepts about the gospel" Man can hear and reason...period! it is a God given capability that even mentally limited persons possess even though it may be faulty for other reasons.

And yes, unregenerate man comes to God by Hearing the Word and Believing, and that is how one is transformed from unregenerate to regenerate.

 

[Frogman]

None of these verses address my question. I know the message about Christ is indispensable for salvation, what is your point? I asked is having Spiritual Discernment necessary to be saved? The believers in Corinth didn't have any spiritual discernment yet they were saved.

What are you talking about? How can one who does not possess anything but the spirit of man discern anything of the Holy Spirit of God? Discernment follows only after regeneration of the sinful nature of the spirit of man. Paul is clear on that in teaching the believers in Corinth. If we do not understand the clearity it is not due to the failure of Scripture to present it clearly, but to our own inability to 'take' the word as it is and thus we have apply it in such a way that we not offend any, thus we fail to see a regenerated church membership because the old man has not yet been torn down but the new is being 'built' up by man.

This is the problem with our thought today, everything is now viewed as relevant. In the word of God this is not so. There are those who are lost and those who are found. Those lost cannot 'find' themselves, regardless of how hard we work to permit them to do so.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

Romans 10.14 is first in order prior to 10.17 either way you present it they must believe it before they call upon him, or else it is ridiculous to fallen man to call on a Savior whom he does not need....logically.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
I don't deny that there is a distinction between those in the 1st century during Christ's time on earth who could believe and those who could not. The question is WHY? Why can't they believe Larry????

because of their sin, Bill.

John 12: 37-41, which you ignore, tells us exactly why they can't believe and it has absolutely nothing to do with Total Depravity. It has to do with the Judicial and temporary hardening of God.

All you can say is ,"The hardening argument just doesn't work in light of Scripture."

My response is this, "At least hardening is taught in scripture, Total Depravity is a man made doctrine supported by those who hold to presuppositions based upon mislead theologian's ideas about the nature of man."

I know that is your response and it is as wrong now as it was when you first brought it up. We have already been through that. TD is a firmly rooted biblical doctrine. Consider Rom 8 where "cannot" is used with reference to peopel who clearly ahve not been hardened. Not very many people can deny that.

Tell me why you think that the Pharisees of John 8 cannot understand the words of Jesus?

Why ask me what I think? Just look at what Jesus said: "You are of your father the devil." He appeals to their sin nature and their father as the reason. Why do you go to great lengths to deny that? Why is his answer not good enough?

What did they do to become a father of Satan? Answer: Nothing. They were born that way.

Sounds like hardening is the reason they can't understand to me.

What is your answer Pastor Larry?

The same one Jesus gave. Reading the text would solve your confusion Bill.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Did God instill the idea in Eve by which she sinned? Did God instill the idea in Adam by which he too sinned?

The answers are no and no. My point was referring to spiritually regeneration by which a soul becomes willing to come to Christ Jesus in repentance and faith.