Originally posted by enda:
The bible teaches with absolute clarity that man, by nature is dead : Romans 5:12.
I agree. But dead doesn't mean total unable to believe, just as Paul says believers are "dead to sin" doesn't mean we are totally unable to sin.
It tells us that men are bound
Yes, it does.
"God bound all men over to disobedience so that he might have mercy on them all." Rom. 11:32
Oops, did Paul mean to say that God bound all men over to disobedience so that he could have mercy on a few of them?
It shows us that men are blind and deaf : Mark 4:11
Read Acts 28:25-28 to see who specifically this is refering to. Or you could read John 12:37-41.
He is not talking about "men" in general. He is talking about Hardened Israel whom God has held out his hands to for generations longing to gather them under his wings, but they were unwilling.
It shows us that we are uninstructible : 1 Cor 2:14
Yes, just like the "brothers" of Corinth. Nothing said here about man's inability to believe.
Naturally sinful , by birth (Psalm 51:5) and by practice (Gen 6:5)
Agreed. But still nothing about total inablity.
This then is mans natural state.
We know that this is not our physical state, it is referring to our spiritual condition.
Agreed.
Does coming to an intellectual belief change this, NO for even the devils believe.
Nope. I agree again. Faith without works are dead.
Only God can change us, "you hath He quickened(made alive) who were dead in tresspasses and sins.
Yep. I agree. And he does this for all who believe.
Ye have not chosen me bur I have chosen you (John 15:6)
Jesus is speaking to his Apostles about being chosen for their unique tasks, he has chosen to reveal his message to the world through them so that whosoever believes will not perish but have ever lasting life.
As many as were ordained to eternal life believed.(Acts 13:48)
Read the context. God had ordain that both Gentiles and Jews would receive eternal life, not just Jews as many in those days believed.
Election is not on account of our believing, our believing is on account of our being elected.
I agree. Gentiles would have never believed had God not elected us to hear his message too.
Your INTELLECTUAL belief is inadequate for salvation, it is not faith.
I agree again. There is nothing "intellectual" about believing the truth of the Gospel and it's certainly not salvific if one is not willing to follow Christ in obedience.
By grace are ye saved through FAITH, AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES , it is the gift of God.
Many scholars, even those of Calvinistic beliefs, acknowledge that the phrase "that not of yourselves" could be in reference to grace or salvation as a whole and not necessarily faith.
Plus, if you read other passages from Paul in which he discusses the issue of faith and boasting he does not try to make faith out to be something in which man might boast in. Look at Rom. 3:27-41. Faith is set up in opposition to the works of the law, in which man DID have reason to boast. Paul never links boasting to faith. Boasting is linked to the works of the Law, of which faith clearly is not.
So this passage should be understood in this manner:
By grace are ye saved through FAITH, AND THAT NOT OF [YOUR WORKS FROM THE LAW], it is a gift of God, lest any man should boast.
The reason I was astonished at your earlier statement is not because of the simple example you used. I am astonished because you are denying the work of the Holy Spirit, denying His role in drawing men to Christ. You are saying that every man with a brain can COME, this is simply not true.
NO, You are the one denying the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of most of humanity. I believe God has chosen to draw all man to himself as the scripture clearly teaches in John 12. Therefore, whosoever, brain or no brain, truly may come.
You are treading on very dangerous ground IMO.
I feel the same about you. But honestly who is really treading dangerously here?
If I'm wrong, and you are right, no eternal harm done. The same number of people will be saved.
However, if you're wrong and I'm right, you may be causing confusion and distractions among the believers preventing some from believing.
You better be sure of yourself here.
NE will follow that for which one has no belief! Following can lead to belief, but most often not, because following without belief is skepticism and is most often done by cynics.
