Originally posted by Helen:
1. You should care that Zoroaster was a student of Daniel for it was in this way that the Magoi knew what to look for in the STARS, when they came to Herod and said "WE HAVE SEEN HIS STAR IN THE EAST..." It is one more evidence that people have always had the Gospel of Christ available to them.
HOw do you know that the Magoi found out this way? You don't. You have not yet established any relevance here whatsoever. It proves nothing about the gospel of Christ. It is, so far, pure suggestion on your part. BTW, there is no substantive difference between magi and magoi. Magoi is the Greek word transliterated. It means wise men, astrologers, magicians.
2. Paul makes a specific point in Galatians of saying that 'seed' was singular and not plural and specifically referring to Christ in Genesis 15, your claim not withstanding.
Did you read? Paul makes a specific point about one aspect. He does not deny the truth of Gen 15.5, which is that Abraham's seed would be as the number of the stars counted.
3. We do know what God named the stars, or at least the meaning of the names, for those meanings are the same in every ancient language, and many modern ones.
How do you know what God named the stars? God didn't tell us this anywhere that I know about. The fact that the names are the same in every language does not mean that name came from God. Surely you can see the logical jump you just made.
4. You stated that God's glory is far more than Christ. The Bible disagrees with you: The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His being. Heb. 1:3 "Radiance" is that which we can see. Any more glory is unseeable to us. Therefore, as far as we humans are concerned, all God's glory is in Christ. Using Bible to explain Bible, then, and in line with what Paul says in Romans 10, the fact that the heavens declare the glory of God means that there is something in the heavens which proclaims Christ to the world.
Helen, this is a very poor attempt at exegesis. God's glory involves far more than Jesus. The glory of God is his worth and value, his majesty and magnificence. Get out your concordance and start looking up God's glory adn see how many references to it have nothing to do with Christ per se. You cannot limit it in such a manner. The text won't let you.
5. I don't have to be a theologian to have full assurance about God not wanting one to perish. The Bible says so. It's His Word. I don't need a theologian for that.
Who said you did? The question for you is this: Did God do everything he could to secure the eternal life of all men in all times?
6. Abraham's faith, which was counted to him as righteousness, had to be faith IN something. Faith does not float alone in the air; it has an object. What was the object of Abraham's faith that was counted to him as righteousness? Read what Jeremiah has to say:
Abraham's faith was in God as Gen 15:6 tells us. Again, the Scripture answers your question. Even Jeremiah's passage you cite does not command belief in this coming Messiah for salvation from sin. It simply prophesies it he will come.
Did Jeremiah as well as Job, and even Noah, who WAS a Preacher of Righteousness (of Christ), know more than Abraham? I doubt it.
IT is clear that Jeremiah did know more, being as that he came later in the stages of progressive revelation. Job knew of a Redeemer, but that is not said to be the content of his saving faith. Noah was a preacher of righteousness but we see nothing in his preachig about Christ. You see, the problem is that you insist on saying things the Bible doesn't say. That means your theology isn't solidly biblical.
Abraham believed God AFTER he looked at the stars, named them, and believed about the Seed (singular, according to Paul in Galatians), and it was credited to him as righteousness.
Helen, LISTEN ... The word saphar does not mean to name. Why do you ignore the facts to maintain this position you have staked yourself to? I realize it will be hard for to back down from it now that you have made it so public, but it is a wrong position. You have misdefined the word and based your position on that mistake. Abraham believed God before he looked at the stars, as Gen 12 and Hebrews 11 shows us. The context of Gen 15.5 is clearly about counting. Again, the Bible is amazingly clear.
7. I have no reason to doubt the stories of so many missionaries when they all agree with each other. God left something of the word of His Promise in every culture, so that no man is without an opportunity to believe. This coincides exactly with what both Paul and Peter tell us in the Bible. That is further reason to believe the missionaries.
Paul and Peter say nothing about a gospel in the stars. I haven't heard "so many missionaries" say this. In fact, I have read a few isolated anecdotes. But as I have pointed out, there is a perfectly good explanation that has nothign to do with the stars. YOu just won't accept it.
8. The fact that God knew that He would end up hardening Pharaoh's heart in the long run does not negate what the Bible says about Pharaoh hardening his OWN heart first. God simply finished what Pharaoh had started and God told Moses ahead of time that this would be the result. This does not mean Pharaoh did not have a choice about all this. He was not a robot.
Pharaoh was not a robot. He did what he wanted to do. But the Bible says what it says. It does not say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart first. I pointed out the errors in your statement, using the chronology of Scripture, and you deny it. And if God knew what Pharoah would do, then Pharaoh had no choice to do anything else.
9. About Judas, again, the fact that God KNEW what Judas would do does not mean that Judas never had a choice about it.
Because God's knowledge is perfect. Once God knows something, it has to come to pass. There is no other alternative. Before Judas was born, God knew (whether by decree or response). Therefore, during Judas's life he had no choice but to do what God knew he would do.
We are all freee to choose what we will do, and given our sin nature, we will all choose to reject God because we are dead in trespasses and sins.
10. Therefore the point of all this is to say that faith in a Redeemer, the fulfilled Promise of God, who IS Christ Jesus, has been available to all men from Adam on. Therefore those of another faith cannot be saved, but that faith has been available to all men from all times and places. The evidence is in the Bible and in history.
But as we have shown, this simply cannot be proven.
Helen, the more you post, the less serious we are able to take you. On points of clear biblical statement, you deny the Scripture (cf. Pharoah, Gen 15.5 and counting, etc.) Why? I don't get that. I understand that some people speak in haste before fully understanding the points. I have done that myself. I understand it is hard to back down once something has been made so public. But here, time after time, you keep repeating the same errors. It makes me think you are not interacting seriously with anything that is being said. There is certainly room for difference on some of the exegetical points being discussed. But some of this is clear biblical teaching and that is where we need to hang our theological hats.
