Can Preterists Even BEGIN To Make Their Case?

[robycop3]

Let's see...

The previous thread on tnis subject was closed after Prophecy 70 denied rev. 13:5 is a literal verse. However, he has no PROOF, basis, or authority for such a statement. It's simply an "inconvenient" Scripture shedding falsehood on his pret doctrine, so he denies its literality.

That's a common preterist duck-n-dodge for Scriptural prophecies they KNOW haven't yet come to pass, but don't wanna admit their pret doctrine is false.

They got torpedoed over the translation of the Greek genea, but don't wanna admit that fact, either.

Repeated requests by myself & other readers for **PROOF** the events they SAY have already occurred, HAVE actually already occurred, have been met with excuses, guesswork, bunny trails, red herrings, and stony silence.

THEY'RE STUMPED, & THEY KNOW IT!

So, preterists, why don'tcha do the Christian & Baptist thing & admit you've been deceived & lied to by whoever taught you that absurd false doctrine? Nuffin' to be ashamed of; we've all been deceived by Satan at one time or another to some degree. (For example, I almost fell into the quagmire of Herbie Armstrong's "Worldwide Church of God".)

So, Preterists, either PROVIDE SOME PROOF, or admit you were deceived!

 

[agedman]

Some systems of thinking actually must discredit the Scripture in some manner. This is seen not just in eschatology.

The basic question comes down to why would one not take the Scriptures as literal as possible considering the complete fulfillment of Scriptures concerning the first advent?

It is (IMO) because the lie of Satan may seem so reasonable, yet is a lie.

When the first step is taken to question the authority, it isn’t far from taking the next step to declare a Scripture doesn’t exist or do as Jefferson, take a knife and remove anything objectionable.

 

[David Kent]

Some systems of thinking actually must discredit the Scripture in some manner. This is seen not just in eschatology.

The basic question comes down to why would one not take the Scriptures as literal as possible considering the complete fulfillment of Scriptures concerning the first advent?

It is (IMO) because the lie of Satan may seem so reasonable, yet is a lie.

When the first step is taken to question the authority, it isn’t far from taking the next step to declare a Scripture doesn’t exist or do as Jefferson, take a knife and remove anything objectionable.

Not all the prophecies of the Lord were fulfilled literally by any means. Far from it.

 

[Covenanter]

I started a thread to continue this discussion. John replied once & the thread was locked.

Put simply, the case for "genea=race" (the Jewish race) is based on the assertion that all the events Jesus said would take place before this "genea" passed, particularly

the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.​

have not yet occurred, & will not occur until Jesus comes again.

The case for "genea=generation" (those living at the time Jesus spoke) is based on the assertion that Jesus as said:

"this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place"​

that those events occurred because Jesus prophesied that they would occur, being seen by the prophesied events occurring at the AD 70 destruction, not in the way most of us expect at his return for resurrection & judgment, when indeed the resurrection will mean that every eye will see him at a final coming.

20 years ago I preached through Revelation with the amil understanding that Jesus' coming was at the end of time -

the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth/land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.​

was his final coming. Further study has resulted in my present understanding.

As for -

"They got torpedoed over the translation of the Greek genea, but don't wanna admit that fact, either."​

you will see that John admitted having confused various Greek words & being misled by his search engine, & was glad we were able to correct him.

The question of whether Jesus is asserting that the Jewish race will continue, presumably in unbelief, until Jesus' final coming raises further questions. How could God condemn 60 generations of Jews who were not involved in the rejection & crucifixion of their Messiah? 3 or 4 generations perhaps (Deut. 5) but 60 ?!?

 

[agedman]

Not all the prophecies of the Lord were fulfilled literally by any means. Far from it.

Glad to see that admission.

The typical preterist contention is that all prophccy concerning Christ are fulfilled.

At least the amill folks do see a literal second coming !

 

[agedman]

I started a thread to continue this discussion. John replied once & the thread was locked.

Put simply, the case for "genea=race" (the Jewish race) is based on the assertion that all the events Jesus said would take place before this "genea" passed, particularly

the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.​

have not yet occurred, & will not occur until Jesus comes again.

The case for "genea=generation" (those living at the time Jesus spoke) is based on the assertion that Jesus as said:

"this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place"​

that those events occurred because Jesus prophesied that they would occur, being seen by the prophesied events occurring at the AD 70 destruction, not in the way most of us expect at his return for resurrection & judgment, when indeed the resurrection will mean that every eye will see him at a final coming.

20 years ago I preached through Revelation with the amil understanding that Jesus' coming was at the end of time -

the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth/land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.​

was his final coming. Further study has resulted in my present understanding.

As for -

"They got torpedoed over the translation of the Greek genea, but don't wanna admit that fact, either."​

you will see that John admitted having confused various Greek words & being misled by his search engine, & was glad we were able to correct him.

The question of whether Jesus is asserting that the Jewish race will continue, presumably in unbelief, until Jesus' final coming raises further questions. How could God condemn 60 generations of Jews who were not involved in the rejection & crucifixion of their Messiah? 3 or 4 generations perhaps (Deut. 5) but 60 ?!?

My but you are very quick to claim some empty victory.

Your last sentence shows the foundation of your thinking being that of seeking some human explanation for history.

Yet, the plans and actions of God are not subject to such limitations.

God saves whom He chooses, and He chose to darken the understanding of the RACE of Jews until He determined. That it doesn’t seem logical or fit your scheme of Justice has no bearing.

Without regard to any scheme, why would you not teach the Scriptures as being presented literally and with as much veracity as one might take the constitution of the US?

IF you are a preacher, then preach the truth, not some contrivance because it doesn’t conform to you sense of justice!

 

[David Kent]

Glad to see that admission.

The typical preterist contention is that all prophccy concerning Christ are fulfilled.

At least the amill folks do see a literal second coming !

I am not sure where you get your information from, Preterist friends I know do believe that Christ will return again

I think you also misunderstood my post as well. You said all the prophecies of Christ were fulfilled literally, I said they not all were. Many times the NT says some act was a fulfillment of a prophecy, when they were not always obvious.

 

[agedman]

I am not sure where you get your information from, Preterist friends I know do believe that Christ will return again

I think you also misunderstood my post as well. You said all the prophecies of Christ were fulfilled literally, I said they not all were. Many times the NT says some act was a fulfillment of a prophecy, when they were not always obvious.

You mistake preterist thinking.

As shown in the threads, they view all prophecy is finished and the Lord returned ”spiritually.”

Like I stated, at least the amill accept an actual return of Christ.

 

[prophecy70]

Let's see...

The previous thread on tnis subject was closed after Prophecy 70 denied rev. 13:5 is a literal verse. However, he has no PROOF, basis, or authority for such a statement. It's simply an "inconvenient" Scripture shedding falsehood on his pret doctrine, so he denies its literality.

That's a common preterist duck-n-dodge for Scriptural prophecies they KNOW haven't yet come to pass, but don't wanna admit their pret doctrine is false.

They got torpedoed over the translation of the Greek genea, but don't wanna admit that fact, either.

Repeated requests by myself & other readers for **PROOF** the events they SAY have already occurred, HAVE actually already occurred, have been met with excuses, guesswork, bunny trails, red herrings, and stony silence.

THEY'RE STUMPED, & THEY KNOW IT!

So, preterists, why don'tcha do the Christian & Baptist thing & admit you've been deceived & lied to by whoever taught you that absurd false doctrine? Nuffin' to be ashamed of; we've all been deceived by Satan at one time or another to some degree. (For example, I almost fell into the quagmire of Herbie Armstrong's "Worldwide Church of God".)

So, Preterists, either PROVIDE SOME PROOF, or admit you were deceived!

Why dont you head on over to the Matthew 24 Fulfilled topic and make your case? You never seem to have a case, your only defense is, the word PROOF AND CAPITAL LETTERS.


We can't prove what you are asking, how can we prove your own fantasy about what the bible teaches?

I asked you simple questions before and you have failed to answer them, Instead its a broken record with you with nothing to back it up.

 

[prophecy70]

They got torpedoed over the translation of the Greek genea, but don't wanna admit that fact, either.

Please enlighten me where we got torpedoed.

 

[agedman]

Please enlighten me where we got torpedoed.

Pearl Harbor.

 

[prophecy70]

The basic question comes down to why would one not take the Scriptures as literal as possible considering the complete fulfillment of Scriptures concerning the first advent?

Literal?

How is a 2000 year gap in a 490 year prophecy literal?
How is any unnatural use of "this generation will not pass" literal?
How is taking "i'm coming soon, at hand quickly" meaning 2000+ years literally?

2nd Thess 1
5.All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.

How do you explain this passage? Literally? Is the thessalonian church still waiting 2000 years for God judgment?

Matthew 18

20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”
what is your Literal explanation for that verse?

*Micah 1:1-9

The Coming Judgment on Israel
2 Hear, all you peoples!
Listen, O earth, and all that is in it!
Let the Lord God be a witness against you,
The Lord from His holy temple.

3 For behold, the Lord is coming out of His place;
He will come down
And tread on the high places of the earth.
4 The mountains will melt under Him,
And the valleys will split
Like wax before the fire,
Like waters poured down a steep place.
5 All this is for the transgression of Jacob
And for the sins of the house of Israel.
What is the transgression of Jacob?
Is it not Samaria?
And what are the high places of Judah?
Are they not Jerusalem?

6 “Therefore I will make Samaria a heap of ruins in the field,
Places for planting a vineyard;
I will pour down her stones into the valley,
And I will uncover her foundations.
7 All her carved images shall be beaten to pieces,
And all her pay as a harlot shall be burned with the fire;
All her idols I will lay desolate,
For she gathered it from the pay of a harlot,
And they shall return to the pay of a harlot.”

Mourning for Israel and Judah
8 Therefore I will wail and howl,
I will go stripped and naked;
I will make a wailing like the jackals
And a mourning like the ostriches,
9 For her wounds are incurable.
For it has come to Judah;
It has come to the gate of My people—
To Jerusalem.

Again literal explanation for this?

 

[agedman]

Literal?

How is a 2000 year gap in a 490 year prophecy literal?
How is any unnatural use of "this generation will not pass" literal?
How is taking "i'm coming soon, at hand quickly" meaning 2000+ years literally?


Again literal explanation for this?

How many years from the promise of deliverance given to Adam and Eve until it was realized?


Are you not aware that God doesn’t operate according to human 24 hour timing?

The revolution of the world was stopped and actually backed up to prove God’s promise, why would God be conformed to human demands of length between promise and fulfillment.

The statement of Scripture is that God shortened the time or nobody would be left alive on the whole planet.

How does that fit into your scheme?

 

[TCassidy]

Please enlighten me where we got torpedoed.

Strongs: age, generation, nation.

Thayer Definition:
1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

Notice, out of 7 definitions, the one you demand is next to last.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

It was closed because John pointed out he had lready conceeded the point in another thread. So, there was no need for further discussion.

I started a thread to continue this discussion. John replied once & the thread was locked.

Put simply, the case for "genea=race" (the Jewish race) is based on the assertion that all the events Jesus said would take place before this "genea" passed, particularly

the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.​

have not yet occurred, & will not occur until Jesus comes again.

The case for "genea=generation" (those living at the time Jesus spoke) is based on the assertion that Jesus as said:

"this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place"​

that those events occurred because Jesus prophesied that they would occur, being seen by the prophesied events occurring at the AD 70 destruction, not in the way most of us expect at his return for resurrection & judgment, when indeed the resurrection will mean that every eye will see him at a final coming.

20 years ago I preached through Revelation with the amil understanding that Jesus' coming was at the end of time -

the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth/land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.​

was his final coming. Further study has resulted in my present understanding.

As for -

"They got torpedoed over the translation of the Greek genea, but don't wanna admit that fact, either."​

you will see that John admitted having confused various Greek words & being misled by his search engine, & was glad we were able to correct him.

The question of whether Jesus is asserting that the Jewish race will continue, presumably in unbelief, until Jesus' final coming raises further questions. How could God condemn 60 generations of Jews who were not involved in the rejection & crucifixion of their Messiah? 3 or 4 generations perhaps (Deut. 5) but 60 ?!?

 

[prophecy70]

Strongs: age, generation, nation.

Thayer Definition:
1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

Notice, out of 7 definitions, the one you demand is next to last.

Please show me all the verses where it is used as race then and not the present generation.

 

[TCassidy]

Please show me all the verses where it is used as race then and not the present generation.

You have already been shown. You ignored it.

 

[prophecy70]

You have already been shown. You ignored it.

I have? From John? A few of them were the wrong word. And I explained the other two before the thread was closed, so PLEASE don't say I ignored them!

 

[TCassidy]

Matthew 12:39 But he answered them, “An evil and adulterous people seeks after a sign, but no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet."

So, do you claim that only those alive at that time were evil and adulterous?

And were they alive when Jonah had his encounter with the sea monster?

Mark 8:12 He sighed deeply in his spirit, and said, “Why does this people seek a sign? Most certainly I tell you, no sign will be given to this people.”

So, you think only the people alive at the time as Christ sought after a sign? And how does your theory deal with the "no sign will be given" to them?

Mark 8:38 For whoever will be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful people, the Son of Man also will be ashamed of him, when he comes in his Father’s glory, with the holy angels.

So, only those alive at that time were ashamed of Him and His words? And Jesus will only be ashamed those who were alive at that time and not everybody who denies Him?

Hebrews 3:10 Therefore I was displeased with those people, and said, ‘They always err in their heart, but they didn’t know my ways.’

So, was it only the people of that day that erred in their heart and displeased God?

 

[agedman]

Never mind.