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Can saved people drink alchoholic wine and really be saved?
- Thread starter Dale-c
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May I ask you two questions?Timsings said:
Why does the written Word of God condemn the use of strong drink (alcohol) in the Law and by the words of Solomon, only to have His Son, Jesus the Word of God in flesh, making it and encouraging men to drink it?
Doesn't that make the Holy Scriptures a book of hypocritical verse if God preaches one thing but does not practice what He preaches?
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
How does this apply to the concept of no drinking at all please?
Deu 14:22-26 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always. And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
Deu 14:22-26 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always. And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
Dale-c please take the verse in context.Dale-c said:
29And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
31And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?
32They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.
33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
34The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
35But wisdom is justified of all her children.
Wisdom dictates that Jesus was responding to the false accusations of the Pharisees and lawyers. They did not like it that He was associating with the publicans and sinners and that Jesus was gaining a great following of what the Pharisee considered the low life of their society. Thus was their jealous nature revealed in their false accusation of Him. Those that advocate that Jesus was a "winebibber" are falling in line and step with the same religious order of Jesus' day. :tear:
Joshua Rhodes
<img src=/jrhodes.jpg>
Drinking in any amount has no bearing on a person's salvation. That is between that person and God, and has nothing to do with you (or what you think).
menageriekeeper
Active Member
I voted other as well.
Wine can be both a blessing and a curse.
Blessing:
1ch 16:2And when David had made an end of offering the burnt offerings and the peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD.1ch 16:3And he dealt to every one of Israel, both man and woman, to every one a loaf of bread, and a good piece of flesh, and a flagon of wine.
Curse:
Isa 28:1Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!Isa 28:1Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!
The difference? The heart of the person. As we can't judge the heart of someone else, our heart is the only one we can choose for. It is yet another example of that priesthood of the believer thing that some here seem not to recognize.
So my personal view: I don't normally drink alcohol for pleasure, be it wine or Jack Daniels. I don't really care for the taste. I DO use both (and quite a few others) when I cook or when I am sick. Nothing settles my cough and allows me to sleep, better than a cup of tea with honey and a bit of whiskey.
Wine can be both a blessing and a curse.
Blessing:
1ch 16:2And when David had made an end of offering the burnt offerings and the peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD.1ch 16:3And he dealt to every one of Israel, both man and woman, to every one a loaf of bread, and a good piece of flesh, and a flagon of wine.
Curse:
Isa 28:1Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!Isa 28:1Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!
The difference? The heart of the person. As we can't judge the heart of someone else, our heart is the only one we can choose for. It is yet another example of that priesthood of the believer thing that some here seem not to recognize.
So my personal view: I don't normally drink alcohol for pleasure, be it wine or Jack Daniels. I don't really care for the taste. I DO use both (and quite a few others) when I cook or when I am sick. Nothing settles my cough and allows me to sleep, better than a cup of tea with honey and a bit of whiskey.
menageriekeeper
Active Member
Actually Palatka, I believe Christ was commenting on their hypocrisy and the never ending discontent with whoever was presenting the word of God to them. They were simply determined to do God's work in their own way, and couldn't see that because of of this they were actually not doing God's work at all!
I do not read this as a comment on wine use at all.
I totally agree that it does come down to this on what a person chooses to do.
It does not come down to the priesthood of the believer to decide what they want the Bible to say.
Forcing others to drink or not drink just as I do would be wrong.
Denying the scriptures to fit with my personal opinion is wrong as well.
BTW, I don't even like wine for those that are wondering.
I have been told many times that people who defend the moderate use of Alcohol just do so because they "love their sin".
I don't like wine and I can't stand beer.
I only drink wine for my health.
reformedbeliever
New Member
menageriekeeper said:
Cough, cough. :laugh: Just kidding folks..............
My grandfather used to say that a cold was cured by taking lemon, honey, and whiskey. He said take the lemon and honey, throw it away, drink the whiskey. :thumbs:
Debby in Philly
Active Member
"....not of works, lest any man should boast."
What we do or not do does not work, unwork, or prevent salvation.
Losing control of our senses is a bad testimony, and could lead others astray. But the kosher wine I put in my homemade fruitcake once a year does not diminish or rob me of my place in Christ as a child of God, nor tarnish my testimony.
What we do or not do does not work, unwork, or prevent salvation.
Losing control of our senses is a bad testimony, and could lead others astray. But the kosher wine I put in my homemade fruitcake once a year does not diminish or rob me of my place in Christ as a child of God, nor tarnish my testimony.
saturneptune
New Member
One can abstain from alcohol for two reasons.
1. Most of the posts fall under this catagory. The person memorizes a rule, or verse from the Bible, and on their own power, abstain from alcohol, just like the Pharisees observing the law. It is totally devoid of faith or understanding of the Gospel and Scripture. It is a mockery to God.
2. The other reason people abstain was written in the post by I am Blessed 17, the way it should be. She is relying on conviction and guidance of the Holy Spirit living in her. She has faith and the Lord has lead her to not want it in her life. Romans 12:1 speaks of this. Its a matter of witness and example. This honors God.
Those under the first reason ought to hang your heads in shame.
1. Most of the posts fall under this catagory. The person memorizes a rule, or verse from the Bible, and on their own power, abstain from alcohol, just like the Pharisees observing the law. It is totally devoid of faith or understanding of the Gospel and Scripture. It is a mockery to God.
2. The other reason people abstain was written in the post by I am Blessed 17, the way it should be. She is relying on conviction and guidance of the Holy Spirit living in her. She has faith and the Lord has lead her to not want it in her life. Romans 12:1 speaks of this. Its a matter of witness and example. This honors God.
Those under the first reason ought to hang your heads in shame.
And how do you respond to this?C4K said:
Proverbs 23:31-35
31Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
32At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
33Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
34Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
35They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.
Are we in a state of confusion? If we are God is not in it. Nor will His purpose be accomplished.
1 Corinthians 14:30-33
30If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
C4K said:
I am somewhat leaning to believing that those that drink will drink and will find a reason to drink. There are many judgments in God's Word on drinking and no judgments from God on those that do no drinking. The judgments that come upon those that refuse to drink come from those that drink and those that drink judgment comes from God. If there is confusion as to whether one can or can't drink then wouldn't it be better to face man's judgment rather than God's?
Here is where people have gotten into trouble for not drinking alcohol.
Daniel 1:8-10
8But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king’s meat, nor with the wine which he drank: therefore he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself.
9Now God had brought Daniel into favour and tender love with the prince of the eunuchs.
10And the prince of the eunuchs said unto Daniel, I fear my lord the king, who hath appointed your meat and your drink: for why should he see your faces worse liking than the children which are of your sort? then shall ye make me endanger my head to the king.
I will not defile my body with even a sip of an alcoholic beverage. Those that will do that to their body must answer to God.
Daniel 5:1-4
1Belshazzar the king made a great feast to a thousand of his lords, and drank wine before the thousand.
2Belshazzar, whiles he tasted the wine, commanded to bring the golden and silver vessels which his father Nebuchadnezzar had taken out of the temple which was in Jerusalem; that the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, might drink therein.
3Then they brought the golden vessels that were taken out of the temple of the house of God which was at Jerusalem; and the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, drank in them.
4They drank wine, and praised the gods of gold, and of silver, of brass, of iron, of wood, and of stone.
I have a hard time trying to control my tongue and to be honest I do not need it to be made loose by alcohol. I just might say something unbecoming a Christian.
Belshazzar took the vessels of God's temple and put wine in them and began to drink out of them. Are we not a vessel of the Holy Spirit? Why do we need to subject that vessel to that which defiles?
What we do or not do does not work, unwork, or prevent salvation.
Losing control of our senses is a bad testimony, and could lead others astray. But the kosher wine I put in my homemade fruitcake once a year does not diminish or rob me of my place in Christ as a child of God, nor tarnish my testimony.
Debbie in Philly
I ask Debbie, what about the person she has been witnessing to that saw her come out of the store with the bottle in a paper bag?
I think we have a double set of standards here. A few years ago we crucified Dr. Rod Bell in VA. for drinking wine. He said all he drank it for was for his stomach sake. He had NO, not one person on this board go to bat for him. His own church kicked him out. However we can drink and it's alright? Something wrong here....Jesus drank wine but Rod Bell can'traying:
Losing control of our senses is a bad testimony, and could lead others astray. But the kosher wine I put in my homemade fruitcake once a year does not diminish or rob me of my place in Christ as a child of God, nor tarnish my testimony.
Debbie in Philly
I ask Debbie, what about the person she has been witnessing to that saw her come out of the store with the bottle in a paper bag?
I think we have a double set of standards here. A few years ago we crucified Dr. Rod Bell in VA. for drinking wine. He said all he drank it for was for his stomach sake. He had NO, not one person on this board go to bat for him. His own church kicked him out. However we can drink and it's alright? Something wrong here....Jesus drank wine but Rod Bell can't
raying:You all do what you want but I am warning all of you we all stand in light of God's judgment. I got more than I care to face Him with than to add wine drinking to the list. I will of course answer for mine own mote. You must answer for your own. I do not think that drinking will send a person to hell. There is but one sin that is unforgivable and it is the sin of blasphemy. Every one that drinks stands on the threshold of committing blasphemy as the tongue gets looser. You might want to risk it but I will not risk it.
Colossians 3:5-10
5Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
8But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Proverbs 23:29,30
29Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
30They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
Colossians 3:5-10
5Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
8But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Proverbs 23:29,30
29Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
30They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
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