Can someone WANT to be saved but not be?

[Herald]

God only gave them over once they exchanged the truth for a lie, which alludes to ability. They weren't turned over due to their nature, but what choice they made with their nature.

Their nature was already fallen (Psalm 51:5; Eph. 2:1-3; Col. 1:21). Rom. 1 is an interesting passage of scripture. It explores the insidious nature of sin and the depths of reprobation. The account of the fool in Romans 1 isn't so much a timeline (exchanged the truth for a lie ---> given over to reprobation) as it is one of depth and progression. The sinner (which is everyone) is born as such and has a natural disposition towards sin. The more the sinner sins, and the more he hardens his heart, there is potential for reaching greater depths of sin. Some people peg the needle on the depravity meter and become Stalin's, Hitler's and Bin Laden's. Others never progress as far but are still enemies of God. The fool of Romans 1 is a composite. It's not one sinner who does all the things recorded in that chapter; rather it's broad brushed picture of where sin can lead.

Sorry for waxing long. It's 2:15 AM and allergies are keeping me up.

 

[Iconoclast]

Calvinists often equate God's choice to bless Jacob over Esau with to God's choice to save Jacob and not Esau, but Hebrews 12:16 says, "See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears."

He desires the blessing with tears and yet he was rejected. How do Calvinists explain this if indeed only the elect would want to be saved?

He [esau]:thumbsup::thumbsup:did not want to repent...he wanted his father to repent and give him the blessing.....

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I do not think we have sufficient reasons to suggest that Esau was ultimately unsaved...If I were to posit a guess....I would actually believe that he was. He surrendered a life of blessedness in service to God, for instant gratification of earthly desires....He made foolish decisions to surrender the less tangible blessings of taking what would quite reasonably be expected to be his...His birthright. He had little appreciation for what his birthright was worth. Some years later....some wisdom gained...he had more appreciation (even if he never FULLY appreciated it) for what he gave up and sought it...but it wasn't Salvation he gave up. Real decisions have Real consequences.

 

[Yeshua1]

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.'" John 6:37

All that want to be saved (from their sins, not given heaven as a home to go on and live in sin, not to be 'saved' to gain wealth &c) will be saved as the Father does draw all of His elect to Him and none shall be lost; cf 2 Timothy 2:8-10.

Therefore none of His who want saved from sin will be lost. Those wanting saved from other things (finances, an escape from hell by praying a prayer, 'free willing themselves into the Kingdom &c) are simply misunderstanding what salvation is all about.

Only God quickens, saves, regenerates. Only the elect will desire true salvation, therefore none who want to be saved by the biblical true definition will be refused. Not one.

Yes!

As the natural inclination of man, due to being sinners, is to refuse God and his offer of salvation in Christ!

man wants a salvation that comes about due to his own work/efforts. so rejects free offer in christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you believe someone can genuinely want to come to Christ and find salvation but not ever be saved?

Defend you position.

No, as the Lord will save ALL who come unto Him to get saved, and ONLY those whom He enables/quickens/draws to Himself will even want to get saved!

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Double Post Edit

 

[HeirofSalvation]

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.'" John 6:37

That isn't the question posed.

All that want to be saved (from their sins, not given heaven as a home to go on and live in sin, not to be 'saved' to gain wealth &c) will be saved as the Father does draw all of His elect to Him and none shall be lost; cf 2 Timothy 2:8-10.

Many a truly saved individual no more desired salvation from their "sin" than the man in the moon does. They want salvation from punishment....They want their "fire insurance". Sometimes, they are well aware of the cost associated with true repentance from sin, and sometimes, they are nominally, but not very knowledgeably, aware of how much truly turning to Christ will mean. Sometimes, it is a (I daresay selfish) desire to escape punishment and reap eternal life which is the truly motivating factor. And it is as legitimate one as any. Consider:
Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom sir....not the sum total of it. The beginning of life as a disciple of Christ, naturally, starts from the beginning point of Salvation. The babe in Christ is not 22 years into the process of perfection and sanctification...they are babies....and the motivating factor is that they are seeking their own self preservation. They don't want Salvation from their sin per se at least...not always.

There are on the other hand, perfect counter-examples to that...and they perfectly mirror your contention. Those who clearly want Salvation ONLY from their sin, but they aren't seeking eternal life. Ever given the gospel to a desperate crack-addict??? What they think you are offering them is freedom from sin....freedom from an addiction. They are the easiest people to "lead to Christ" in the world....and their sincerity is unquestionable. They do not fear eternal hell, they do not fear damnation, they do not think in terms of eternity....they live in a hell of their own making, and the thing they need to realize is that they should:

Mat 10:28 ... fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

'free willing themselves into the Kingdom

Has nothing to do with the topic.

These Calvinistic platitudes you are expressing are doing a lost and dying world zero favours....You have taken them to a degree truly harmful to the furtherance of the kingdom and the realization of the will of God on Earth. If you ever pondered the sum total of ALL that the Scriptures teach in lieu of mere repetition of determinist proof texts....you might have been capable of thinking more deeply on this.

Only God quickens, saves, regenerates. Only the elect will desire true salvation, therefore none who want to be saved by the biblical true definition will be refused. Not one.

Question 1.) Do Jehovah's Witnesses truly desire Salvation?....Not your view of it....but per the OP...

Question 2.) Vis A vis their MO for receiving/achieving it....will they attain it?

 

[HeirofSalvation]

No, as the Lord will save ALL who come unto Him to get saved, and ONLY those whom He enables/quickens/draws to Himself will even want to get saved!

Unless, perhaps, if one briefly considers those of a works-based faith who ostensibly torture themselves their whole lives seeking with desperation salvation........Sure

 

[HeirofSalvation]

NVM.........DP I need more savvy

 

[Yeshua1]

Unless, perhaps, if one briefly considers those of a works-based faith who ostensibly torture themselves their whole lives seeking with desperation salvation........Sure

that would be those who try to save themselves apart from jesus!

 

[Benjamin]

Has nothing to do with the topic.

These Calvinistic platitudes you are expressing are doing a lost and dying world zero favours....You have taken them to a degree truly harmful to the furtherance of the kingdom and the realization of the will of God on Earth. If you ever pondered the sum total of ALL that the Scriptures teach in lieu of mere repetition of determinist proof texts....you might have been capable of thinking more deeply on this.

I appreciate reading this very nice job of articulating this important concern along with the added identification of the stereotypical roots of a serious problem facing Christianity! Well said.

 

[Tom Butler]

I ran across an article in the Founders Journal by Jay Keywood, titled "Jonathan Edwards Religious Affections and True Religion in the Local Church."

Here's the link:http://www.founders.org/journal/fj85/article2.html

Edwards' treatise speaks to the subject under discussion here. And it raised some points that ought to make us re-examine all that we say and do in calling men and women to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus. It may also cause us to re-examine our own relationship to God, and our hope of heaven.

Here's just one paragraph from Keywood's article:

A sudden, unexplainable feeling in one's mind and heart, even if it is accompanied by a text of Scripture, does not mean that it is divine. "There seems to be nothing in this which exceeds the power of Satan," Edwards says. The Scripture can be manipulated to give false assurance. Conviction for one's sins is another negative sign that can arise from nothing more than a natural, self-preserving fear of hell, instead of a respect for God's holiness (253). This person will do anything to get out of hell, even if it means believing in a God whose holiness is nauseating to him (254). On the contrary, having confidence and assurance in one's state before God does not mean that one is saved (256). Edwards writes, "The devil does not assault the hope of a hypocrite, as he does the hope of a true saint" (257). He contrasts a gracious trust in Christ with trusting in one's assurance (259). Lastly, an appearance of Christian love, accompanied by other affections does not prove anything about one's eternal destiny (250). Therefore, if a person is convicted of sins, but hears the song "I am a Friend of God," he may be elated with joy and thankfulness to an imaginary redeemer for giving him an imaginary redemption

Edwards goes on to say what he believes are true religious affections, and the criteria for recognizing them in others.

Oh, and wanting to be saved is not one of them.

 

[Havensdad]

Doesn't your doctrine teach they must be given this faith to use? It matters not if there is a desire if it is an impossibility.

"My doctrine"? :/

Absolutely it matters. The lack of desire, is what produces the lack of ability. They do not want to repent and believe, therefore they do not.

Back to ability. One cannot be unwilling if one is unable. There is no will involved without ability.

Sure they can. They can be unable because they are unwilling.

 

[Winman]

I ran across an article in the Founders Journal by Jay Keywood, titled "Jonathan Edwards Religious Affections and True Religion in the Local Church."

Here's the link:http://www.founders.org/journal/fj85/article2.html

Edwards' treatise speaks to the subject under discussion here. And it raised some points that ought to make us re-examine all that we say and do in calling men and women to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus. It may also cause us to re-examine our own relationship to God, and our hope of heaven.

Here's just one paragraph from Keywood's article:
Edwards goes on to say what he believes are true religious affections, and the criteria for recognizing them in others.

Oh, and wanting to be saved is not one of them.

That must be one of the worst sermons I have ever heard. The only effect preaching like this can accomplish is to make people doubt their salvation. I can imagine every single person in his audience coming away full of fear and doubt, and forever seeking some "unknown" faith they cannot hope to understand.

The scriptures are simple and straightforward. Jesus said whosoever comes to him, he will in no wise cast out. He didn't say our repentance must be perfect, our feelings perfect, our intentions perfect, etc... Jesus said if we come to him in our heart desiring that he save us, HE WILL SAVE US, and under no circumstances whatsoever shall he ever cast us out.

Jesus encouraged faith, he gave complete assurance. Fellows like Edwards spread doubt and fear to everyone who heard him. This is the technique the Roman Catholic church used for centuries to control people, FEAR.

 

[webdog]

"My doctrine"? :/

Absolutely it matters. The lack of desire, is what produces the lack of ability. They do not want to repent and believe, therefore they do not.




Sure they can. They can be unable because they are unwilling.

Desire has no bearing on ability. That is "your doctrine" talking.

 

[Skandelon]

They do not want to repent and believe, therefore they do not.

The Occupy crowd doesn't want to get off their butts and get a job, but that doesn't mean they are unable to do so. If they were unable to willingly seek employment (like if they were mentally disabled) then they would have a good excuse for not getting a job. That is what your doctrine does...it gives men an excuse for not repenting and believing.

 

[Havensdad]

Desire has no bearing on ability. That is "your doctrine" talking.

Of course it does. A person cannot do what he does not desire to do. That is not "my doctrine" that is just plain logic and reason.

 

[Havensdad]

The Occupy crowd doesn't want to get off their butts and get a job, but that doesn't mean they are unable to do so. If they were unable to willingly seek employment (like if they were mentally disabled) then they would have a good excuse for not getting a job. That is what your doctrine does...it gives men an excuse for not repenting and believing.

Not at all. YOUR doctrine however, gives men who believe in Christ reason for boasting.

The men of the occupy movement (those who are actually part of your caricatured group, anyway...), do not seek employment because they are wicked. Because they are wicked, they do not desire to work. But that does not excuse there wickedness.

 

[quantumfaith]

Not at all. YOUR doctrine however, gives men who believe in Christ reason for boasting.

The men of the occupy movement (those who are actually part of your caricatured group, anyway...), do not seek employment because they are wicked. Because they are wicked, they do not desire to work. But that does not excuse there wickedness.

In truth, HD, even your side of the theological aisle has room for this so called "boasting",...... "Look at me.....I was chosen" Boasting, or the attitude of such is not relegated to one side OR the other, but can sadly be a characteristic of both.

 

[Skandelon]

Not at all. YOUR doctrine however, gives men who believe in Christ reason for boasting.

Yeah, I'm always going around bragging to everyone about the time I found myself in the pig sty of my life, broken, and dejected without hope and helpless crying out for help. I love boasting about my weaknesses and humiliation, it is so much fun.

Plus, I'm only doing what the Lord told me to do when he said to Jeremiah, "let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD.

So, God delights in us boasting Arminians.

The men of the occupy movement (those who are actually part of your caricatured group, anyway...), do not seek employment because they are wicked. Because they are wicked, they do not desire to work. But that does not excuse there wickedness.

If they were born with a mental disorder that made it impossible for them to willingly work (i.e. retarded etc) then sure they would have an excuse. They were born that way, and our society would certainly excuse them. That is your doctrine...you have most of humanity born rejected and unloved by their maker and not granted what they need to willingly follow Him. What better excuse is their than that?

In our doctrine, the unbelievers are much worse than in yours. They rebel despite God's loving and gracious provisions. They spit in his face even after he calls them and appeals for them to be reconciled. He gives them all they need yet they still choose to reject him. Their condemnation is well deserved. Your doctrine has much too high of a view of man.