Can the Non-Elect Come Under Conviction?

[epistemaniac]

the convicting of sinners does not in any way compromise the doctrine of total depravity.... the purpose of the convition in the hearts of the non-elect is the hardening of their hearts...

Isa 6:9-13 esv And he said, Go, and say to this people:
(10) Make the heart of this people dull,and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.
(11) Then I said, How long, O Lord?And he said: Until cities lie waste without inhabitant, and houses without people, and the land is a desolate waste,
(12) and the Lord removes people far away, and the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.
(13) And though a tenth remain in it, it will be burned again, like a terebinth or an oak, whose stump remains when it is felled.The holy seed is its stump."

Mar 4:11-12 esv And he said to them, To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,
(12) so thatthey may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

Joh 9:39 esv Jesus said, For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind.

Joh 12:38-40 esv so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:
(39) Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
(40) He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.

2Co 2:15-16 esv For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing,
(16) to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things?

blessings,
Ken

 

[grahame]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Yea, but if they are already the "elect" then they don't need you or me.

But God has also ordained the means to gather the elect. The preaching of the gospel.

 

[grahame]

"IF" they are "elect", it doesn't matter if they hear the gospel or not, God will call them with an "Irresistable", "Effectual calling" and give them the faith to believe and they'll be saved, the hearing/believing of the individual isn't necessary when God's sovereign will is being exercised, so let's all go fishing.

Maybe He will call them without our doing anything. But then we will be judged for not abiding by Christ's command to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. God's election does not release us from our obligation to do what He has commanded us to do. If we all took that attitude to election then we become hyper Calvinists.

 

[epistemaniac]

amen grahame...... I do not see what is so difficult to understand about all this.... God ordains the salvation of His elect, and, He ordains the means to guarantee that they come to salvation.... we are told to go into all the world, for how can they believe if they do not hear? And those we go to are the ones God has ordained we go to, and those who God graciously chooses to save are saved by the means He chose to accomplish this end.

ah well.. why reinvent the wheel... Westminster puts it so well.....:

Chapter 3

Of God's Eternal Decree

I. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]

1. Psa. 33:11: Eph. 1:11: Heb. 6:17
2. Psa. 5:4; James 1:13-14; I John 1:5; see Hab. 1:13
3. Acts 2:23; 4:27-28: Matt. 17:12; John 19:11; Prov. 16:33

VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto.[12] Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,[13] are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,[14] and kept by his power, through faith, unto salvation.[15] Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.[16]

12. I Peter 1:2; Eph. 2:10; II Thess. 2:13
13. I Thess. 5:9-10; Titus 2:14
14. Rom. 8:30; see Eph. 1:5; II Thess. 2:13
15. I Peter 1:5
16. John 4:47, 6:64-65, 10:14-15 & 26, 17:9; Rom. 8:28-39; I John 2:19"

blessings,
Ken

 

[Brother Bob]

It blows my mind for you to say the elect were pre-chosen and then turn around and say they are saved by the preaching of the gospel. WoW!!!

 

[epistemaniac]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
It blows my mind for you to say the elect were pre-chosen and then turn around and say they are saved by the preaching of the gospel. WoW!!!

it blows my mind that you cannot seem to grasp the accomplishment of ends (goals) by means (preaching the gospel)...

blessings,
Ken

 

[webdog]

Kinda contadicts, huh?

 

[Brother Bob]

The ends goals are already established according to you!

 

[epistemaniac]

not according to me....

Eph 1:3-12 esv Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
(4) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
(5) he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
(6) to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
(7) In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
(8) which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
(9) making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
(10) as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
(11) In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
(12) so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory."

What.... do you think God's "ends goals" aren't established?? Will those who come to saving faith surprise God? Do you think God has no plan?

blessings,
Ken

 

[Brother Bob]

2 Peter, chapter 3

7": But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
"8": But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
"9": The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
"10": But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


John, chapter 3

"16": For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Not me!!!! Sure He had a plan that his only begotten Son would die for the sin of the whole world.

 

[Bro Tony]

What.... do you think God's "ends goals" aren't established?? Will those who come to saving faith surprise God? Do you think God has no plan?

Of course God knows the end from the beginning. That does not equate that God makes everything happen that happens. Temptation happens---but its not from God. James tells us "let no one say when he is tempted, 'I am tempted by God": for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone."

It is a serious misnomer to equate God's sovereignty to the belief that nothing happens that God does not make happen. Does God know who are His? of course. Does God know who will be His? of course. Does God make you love Him? you cant compell love. Does God make you receive Him? If He did you really didnt receive. Does what Ive said remove God's sovereignty? Not in the least.

Bro Tony

 

[Brother Bob]

I know that God repented that He made man.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
If someone is TOTALLY DEPRAVED how can they be affected at all?

Because they have a conscience according to Romans 2... that they will resist to their own condemnation because they love the darkness rather than the light.

Personally, I agree with Me4Him. I think both election and free will are involved in salvation. I don't understand it but both are supported by the Bible.

I do too. And think most calvinists here would as well. Man has free will but will only ever exercise it in accordance with his nature. In order for one to make the "free will" choice to accept Christ, their nature must be changed to one that is consistent with that choice.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
I know that God repented that He made man.

Unless you are an open theist this really doesn't leave you in any less of a puzzle than it does a calvinist. I am not aware of any other means for explaining this than the one that says He foreknew that He would "repent" that He made man.

Basically I am saying that our explanation would be about the same as yours if you believe in God's omniscience.

 

[Brother Bob]

You think I didn't know what they would say? It does happen to be Scripture though. And no I am not an open theist but the Scripture does say it repented Him that He had made man does it not? I know he is the same yesterday, today and forevermore, but I also know it is not His will that any would perish.

 

[epistemaniac]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
2 Peter, chapter 3

7": But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
"8": But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
"9": The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
"10": But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


John, chapter 3

"16": For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Not me!!!! Sure He had a plan that his only begotten Son would die for the sin of the whole world.

yep.. He's not willing that any should perish, but, some do ehhh?

so you think that the Son died making salvation merely possible? that it is theoretically possible that none would have been saved? this has to be your position if God did not have specific individuals in mind from before the foundations of the world....

hmmmm, I always thought that God knew a little bit more then that some empty class of people called "believers" would someday. somehow, be smart enough and spiritual enough to choose Him.... I always thought that God knew those who are His, by name, as individuals.... guess I was wrong...

blessings,
Ken

 

[webdog]

yep.. He's not willing that any should perish, but, some do ehhh?

Which goes to show the God's grace is not "irresistable", and that He does not force His will on man. If He did, you would have universalism.

 

[epistemaniac]

or you would have particular election to salvation.... that the some who do come, come because God gives them the ability to do so....

blessings,
Ken

 

[webdog]

...which is the point of John 12:32

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
You think I didn't know what they would say? It does happen to be Scripture though. And no I am not an open theist but the Scripture does say it repented Him that He had made man does it not? I know he is the same yesterday, today and forevermore, but I also know it is not His will that any would perish.

That is a misinterpretation of that particular verse dependent upon stripping it of its context. Within the very same verse, the scripture designates who is being spoken to/of.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Who is the Lord longsuffering to? "us". Peter is a believer writing to believers... The "us" is believers... not unbelievers.