Can the Non-Elect Come Under Conviction?

[Tom Butler]

Brother Bob, Douglas has defined "born again" very well. To add briefly to his post, Calvinists hold that being born again and being saved are two different things.

When Jesus told Nicodemus that unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God, Calvinists hold that Jesus was not referring to salvation, nor was he referring to entry into the kingdom of God. Jesus was saying one cannot understand or discern kingdom things until he is regenerated. In the next verse, Jesus says that to enter the kingdom, one must be born of water and the Spirit.

Jesus reference to "the wind blows where it wills" was a description of the work of the Holy Spirit--who works as He wills.

Non-Calvinists do not agree with this view, of course. It helps the discussion if the non-Calvinists have an accurate idea of what they disagree with.

 

[Brother Bob]

Or the Calvinists have an accurate idea.

I believe being "born again" is the Holy Ghost baptism. I kept reading Douglas and Calvibaptist answer hoping they meant that was when God was calling which I believe the call goes out to all men but then they went on to say "born again" then I knew it was as I thought. I kept catching little things that told me there was a difference between your belief of regeneration and born again but wasn't sure. You have explained it well all three of you, thanks.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Tom, I would think it would be a little more accurate to say that although being born again is not equivalent to justification because it preceeds it, it is a part of salvation. It is not what most non-calvinists consider as they equate regeneration (being born again) with salvation (justification).

But it is not completely separate either. It is a step in the process, just like repentance and faith are steps in the process. Most Calvinists would list the order of salvaiton in this way: election (in eternity past), predestination (in eternity past), Christ's death (2000 years ago), calling, regeneration, repentance and faith, justification (and all that comes with it - Spirit baptism, sealing,etc.), sanctification, glorification. Most non-calvinists switch the order of faith and regeneration, assuming that regeneration means the same thing as justification (a premise that the Bible does not support).

 

[Tom Butler]

Calvibaptist, your point is well taken.

And we have to be careful that we don't confuse chronological order and logical order.


I'm talking about calling, regeneration, repentance, faith, justification, Spirit baptism and sealing. Although there is a chronological order, they all occur generally at the same time. That was my experience, at least. Others may have different testimonies.

 

[Andy T.]

Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Straw man. You are misrepresenting Calvinism in order to make it look silly. Either learn what Calvinism really teaches or, if you already know, stop being so disingenuous.

Not quite, two can play the same game. If man cannot respond to God because he is "dead" (this IS what calvinism teaches), he does not need his heart hardened either because he is STILL "dead". BTW, calvinism doesn't need me to make it look silly.

And then satan wins and God loses. Whew, you've got some weird wiggy mojo theology going there.

"win" and "lose" what?
If man is "dead" (unable to respond to God ... this is what keeps getting stuffed down my throat by calvinists), then "the god of this world" (satan in wiggy mojo theology terms) does not need to "blind" a "dead man". </font>[/QUOTE]Maybe its because Satan likes to kick a man when he is down? Or maybe Satan doesn't believe in the Doctrines of Grace? I know that sounds silly, but Satan's rebellion was based on him wanting to be like God, so it is reasonable to assume that he rejects many of God's attributes like His sovereignty. But I think it's mostly that Satan just likes to be mean and destroy God's creation.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by Andy T.:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Straw man. You are misrepresenting Calvinism in order to make it look silly. Either learn what Calvinism really teaches or, if you already know, stop being so disingenuous.

Not quite, two can play the same game. If man cannot respond to God because he is "dead" (this IS what calvinism teaches), he does not need his heart hardened either because he is STILL "dead". BTW, calvinism doesn't need me to make it look silly.

And then satan wins and God loses. Whew, you've got some weird wiggy mojo theology going there.

"win" and "lose" what?
If man is "dead" (unable to respond to God ... this is what keeps getting stuffed down my throat by calvinists), then "the god of this world" (satan in wiggy mojo theology terms) does not need to "blind" a "dead man". </font>[/QUOTE]Maybe its because Satan likes to kick a man when he is down? Or maybe Satan doesn't believe in the Doctrines of Grace? I know that sounds silly, but Satan's rebellion was based on him wanting to be like God, so it is reasonable to assume that he rejects many of God's attributes like His sovereignty. But I think it's mostly that Satan just likes to be mean and destroy God's creation. </font>[/QUOTE]This is not what the Word of God says. It says the "god of this world" blinds men, not "they kick them when they're down. The Bible does not lie. Either man can be blinded...because he CAN see the truth, or man is "dead" (corpse according to calvinism), and dead men do not need to be blinded. I'll take God's explanation over Calvin's. Man CAN be blinded, and the "god of this world" (satan) does the blinding. Period.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by webdog:
This is not what the Word of God says. It says the "god of this world" blinds men, not "they kick them when they're down. The Bible does not lie. Either man can be blinded...because he CAN see the truth, or man is "dead" (corpse according to calvinism), and dead men do not need to be blinded. I'll take God's explanation over Calvin's. Man CAN be blinded, and the "god of this world" (satan) does the blinding. Period.

It also says that satan can do nothing without God's permission. Read the book of Job. Or read the verse,

Luke 22:31 "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat.

Asked? Why does satan have to ask?

So does satan blind men? Sure. Does he do it without God's permission? Impossible.

One more thing: God also blinds and deludes men.

2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

Maybe God will do this Himself. But for all we know, God will use satan to accomplish this. The verse and the context doesn't say, either way.

By the way, the Bible, not Calvin, says man is dead in his sins. It also says God blinds men. So your whole argument is made up of personal assumptions based on missing information.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by webdog:

If man is "dead" (unable to respond to God ... this is what keeps getting stuffed down my throat by calvinists), then "the god of this world" (satan in wiggy mojo theology terms) does not need to "blind" a "dead man". [/qb]

Maybe its because Satan likes to kick a man when he is down? Or maybe Satan doesn't believe in the Doctrines of Grace? I know that sounds silly, but Satan's rebellion was based on him wanting to be like God, so it is reasonable to assume that he rejects many of God's attributes like His sovereignty. But I think it's mostly that Satan just likes to be mean and destroy God's creation. [/qb][/QUOTE]This is not what the Word of God says. It says the "god of this world" blinds men, not "they kick them when they're down. The Bible does not lie. Either man can be blinded...because he CAN see the truth, or man is "dead" (corpse according to calvinism), and dead men do not need to be blinded. I'll take God's explanation over Calvin's. Man CAN be blinded, and the "god of this world" (satan) does the blinding. Period. [/QB][/QUOTE]

This is one of my greatest hang ups about calvinism that has not been explain. It makes no sense to continue to hinder man from repenting when they already say he cannot repent. Man cannot believe because he is trapped in a sinful nature. Yet they need to be blinded also.'
The other is spiritual death. it really is not scriptural. For all the brainy-acks (and I mean that in a good way) on cavlvinist side they absolutely deny the bible in these matters! And my last one is still, again the definition they use for a work. Recieving a gift will never be considered a work for that gift by any once of reason!

Good job webdog!

 

[npetreley]

This is one of my greatest hang ups about calvinism that has not been explain. It makes no sense to continue to hinder man from repenting when they already say he cannot repent. Man cannot believe because he is trapped in a sinful nature. Yet they need to be blinded also.'

Where does it say that man needs to be blinded so that he will not repent? The closest thing I can find is in Romans...

What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day.”

But this is simply a re-wording of Deuteronomy 29:4.

"But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear."

So God has given them a spirit of stupor by NOT giving them a mind that understands. In other words, the stupor was their original contidion. They were already blinded. God didn't give them the ability to see.

You cannot say with honesty that Calvinists deny the Bible on these matters. I hope you will not follow the example of others and continue to claim that even though you have been shown differently.

 

[epistemaniac]

howdy tim!

you said "This is one of my greatest hang ups about calvinism that has not been explain. It makes no sense to continue to hinder man from repenting when they already say he cannot repent. Man cannot believe because he is trapped in a sinful nature. Yet they need to be blinded also.'"

The Bible says (along with the texts given by npetreley) that God hardens hearts (hinders from repenting) like that of the Pharaoh's. Total Depravity is not inconsistent with God's continual activity in the hearts of all men, whether they be of the elect or the reprobate. After all, we do not believe in a Deistic concept of God, that He allowed Adam's sin to plunge the whole world into sin, and then just let the world go on it's not-so-merry way. He has mercy on whom He will, and He hardens whom He will.

Rom 9:15-18 esv For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
(16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
(17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.
(18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."

blessings,
Ken

 

[webdog]

The Bible says (along with the texts given by npetreley) that God hardens hearts (hinders from repenting) like that of the Pharaoh's.

While you are correct that the Bible does say that God hardens hearts as with Pharaoh, "harden their heart" does not mean "hinder from repenting" as you stated. The result of God's actions hardened Pharaoh's heart. He blessed His people, and was persistant each time Pharaoh hardened HIS OWN heart. God knew exactly what would harden Pharaoh's heart that final time, and went about doing it.
Look at it like this. If I said to my wife "I am going to tick that guy off standing over there" and kicked him in the leg, did I directly or indirectly "tick that guy off"? I believe this is what God meant in discussing hardening Pharaoh's heart. Pharaoh was sinning against God in not letting His people go. If God ACTUALLY hardened Pharaoh's heart (hindered him from repenting), He would have caused Pharaoh to sin, making God the author of that sin. I don't buy into that lie, that God caused Pharaoh to sin.

There is Scripture that states plainly that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, and Scripture that states God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Rightly dividing the Word will bring you to the correct conclusion.

[ April 25, 2006, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: webdog ]

 

[epistemaniac]

oh... and Tim... in regard to "The other is spiritual death. it really is not scriptural. For all the brainy-acks (and I mean that in a good way) on cavlvinist side they absolutely deny the bible in these matters!"

I'm no brainiac, that is for sure, reading Jonathan Edwards will dispel that thought from almost anyone lol!

But I have to say that while you may disagree, we get the doctrine of spiritual death from places like
Eph 2:1-3 esv And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
(2) in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience (3) among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

Therre it is, in black and white, those not in Christ are "dead in their trespasses and sins".

And we get it from Jesus who said that no man can, that is no one has the ability to come to Him, unless it is granted by the Father. If everyone had the ability to come, if everyone was spiritually alive, why would Jesus say this?
Joh 6:65 esv And he said, This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

I realize this goes against the grain, everyone wants to think that there is some spark of goodness in humanity, but it just isn't so. That this is a "hard saying" today is really no different from what it was in Jesus' own day. For right after He told the disciples that no one can come to Him unless it is granted by the Father, we read;
Joh 6:66 esv After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him."

People are dead in their trespasses and sins unless God works actively in their heart and causes them to be "born again" or "born from above". No one can "born" themselves the second time any more than they could the first time, and if a person is "born from above" then they are not "born from themselves" ie their decision to pick themselves up by their own boot straps and decide to believe has to have come from outside of themselves. Why? Because savingly believing in God is the most important, the most mementous and spirirtual thing a person can do, yet the Bible says that the unsaved man is of the flesh, dead... and not of the spirit.
Joh 3:5-6 esv Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
(6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

The flesh profits nothing Tim... nothing.. and plainly, savingly believing in Christ Jesus is SOMETHING! And nothing is not a little something. lol
Joh 6:63 esv It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail."
or the NKJV uses the word "profits";
Joh 6:63 NKJV It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."

If the flesh profits nothing, then it does not profit a little something.


Paul says that the works we do in the flesh bear the fruit of death;
Rom 7:5 esv For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death."
Remember the good tree/ bad tree anaolgy....

If a person is in the flesh, they are slaves to sin, sold out to it....;
Rom 7:14 esv For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.

Paul goes on to detail this spiritual death in greater detail here;
Rom 8:5-9 esv For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
(6) To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
(7) For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
(8) Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
(9) You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him."

Those in the flesh cannot please God. And plainly, coming to God... believing savingly... is pleasing to God!

Anyway, that is just a short summary of the "why" behind the doctrine of total depravity. You can read much more about it in greater detail if you like. I would be glad to point you to some other resources that deal witht he subject, at the very least, you too will be informed and will not be able to say that it's not biblical. Indeed, it is.

blessings,
Ken

 

[epistemaniac]

Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The Bible says (along with the texts given by npetreley) that God hardens hearts (hinders from repenting) like that of the Pharaoh's.

While you are correct that the Bible does say that God hardens hearts as with Pharaoh, "harden their heart" does not mean "hinder from repenting" as you stated. The result of God's actions hardened Pharaoh's heart. He blessed His people, and was persistent each time Pharaoh hardened HIS OWN heart. God knew exactly what would harden Pharaoh's heart that final time, and went about doing it.
Look at it like this. If I said to my wife "I am going to tick that guy off standing over there" and kicked him in the leg, did I directly or indirectly "tick that guy off"? I believe this is what God meant in discussing hardening Pharaoh's heart. Pharaoh was sinning against God in not letting His people go. If God ACTUALLY hardened Pharaoh's heart (hindered him from repenting), He would have caused Pharaoh to sin, making God the author of that sin. I don't buy into that lie, that God caused Pharaoh to sin.

There is Scripture that states plainly that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, and Scripture that states God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Rightly dividing the Word will bring you to the correct conclusion. </font>[/QUOTE]It seems pretty obvious that God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not repent, ie that he would not repent of the sin of having the children of Israel as his slaves. If God prevented the Pharaoh from releasing the Israelites by the hardening of his heart, then it is manifestly clear that the hardening of his heart is what prevented the Pharaoh from repenting and thus, releasing the Israelites. Why else? Especially since God tells us exactly why He hardened the Pharaoh's heart so that he would not repent and let the Israelites go, ie for His greater glory.


And God is said to harden Pharaoh's heart before Pharaoh is ever said to speak of hardening his own heart, and that is rightly dividing the word.

Exo 4:21 NKJV And the LORD said to Moses, When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go."

This is the first passage dealing with the hardening of the Pharaoh's heart, prior to this, it is not said that the Pharaoh would harden his own heart. Plainly God hardened the Pharaoh's heart so that he would not let the Israelites go, and this was the Pharaoh's sin. God's hardening of the Pharaoh's heart was not itself sin, as God is the Potter and he has a right to do with the clay whatever it is He sees fit to do.

So;

First, God hardens Pharaoh's heart.
Second, Pharaoh is said to harden his own heart.
Third, it is said that the Pharaoh would hardene his heart just as God said he would do as a result of Him hardening the Pharaoh's heart in the first place, and that this is the inevitable response of God hardening the Pharaoh's heart for God's greater purpose which God tells us about in chapter 7, see below.

We are told again that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, and the reason God hardened it;
Exo 7:3-5 NKJV And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. (4) But Pharaoh will not heed you, so that I may lay My hand on Egypt and bring My armies and My people, the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. (5) And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the children of Israel from among them."

I can't believe you even want to quibble over something so obvious, hardening the Pharaoh's heart is what prevented the Pharaoh from repenting... what else would it be for heaven's sake?

And so there is your question webdog, if God's activity of hardening the Pharaoh's heart was not for the purpose of the Pharaoh not repenting, what was the point of it?

BTW, keep in mind that Hebrew experts Keil and Delitzsch say that when God is said to harden Pharaoh's heart, the Hebrew literally means:
"I will make his heart firm, so that it will not move, his feelings and attitude towards Israel will not change... I will make Pharaoh's heart hard, or unfeeling;.... “I have made his heart heavy,” i.e., obtuse, or insensible to impressions or divine influences."

I'd say you have got an impossible task ahead of you.

The following ought to really make your day....

"As to myself, I am certainly not ashamed of speaking as the Holy Spirit speaks, nor do I hesitate to believe what so often occurs in Scripture, that God gives the wicked over to a reprobate mind, gives them up to vile affections, blinds their minds and hardens their hearts. But they object, that in this way God would be made the author of sin; which would be a detestable impiety. I reply, that God is very far from the reach of blame, when he is said to exercise his judgments: wherefore, if blindness be a judgment of God, it ought not to be brought inaccusation against him, that he inflicts punishment. But if the cause be often concealed from us, we should remember that God’s judgments are not without reason called a “great deep,” and, therefore, let us regard them with admiration and not with railing. But those who substitute his permission in the place of his act, not only deprive him of his authority as a judge, but in their repining, subject him to a weighty reproach, since they granthim no more of justice than their senses can understand." (John Calvin)


blessings,
Ken

 

[epistemaniac]

something else to ponder re the hardening of Pharaoh:

"In order to claim that God’s hardening activity in this story is to be viewed only as a reactionary, conditional, and judicial hardening rather than a more ultimate, discriminating, and distinguishing hardening, some theologians have argued that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart only after Pharaoh had already hardened his own heart.

A careful assessment of the biblical data will show, however, that there is nothing in the entire Exodus context to suggest that this is the proper approach to this crux interpretum that Pharaoh would necessarily have hardened his heart against Israel after the first confrontation (Exod. 7:6–13).

He could just as easily and readily, in God’s providence, have been convinced by the first confrontation that the better part of wisdom dictated his letting Israel go.

A careful examination of the biblical text will show not only that ten times is it said that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, 19 but also that God twice declared to Moses, even before the series of confrontations between Moses and Pharaoh began, that he would harden Pharaoh’s heart “and [thereby] multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt” (Exod. 4:21; 7:3).

The first time then that it is said that Pharaoh’s heart was hard, the text expressly declares that it was so “just as the LORD had spoken” (Exod. 7:13), clearly indicating that Pharaoh’s hardness of heart had came about due to God’s previous promise to harden it. And the first time it is said that Pharaoh “made his heart hard,” again we are informed that it was so “just as the LORD had spoken” (8:15; see also 8:19; 9:12, 35).

Paul would later declare in Romans 9 that in his hardening activity God was merely exercising his sovereign right as the Potter to do with his own as he pleased (Rom. 9:17–18, 21).

In the Exodus context, God, in fact, declared to Pharaoh that the reason behind his raising Pharaoh up and placing him on the throne of Egypt (or “preserving him” upon the throne, as some translators construe the Hebrew) was in order to show by him his power and in order to proclaim his own name throughout the earth (Exod. 9:16; see also Rom. 9:17). It is evident from both Exodus and Romans that Pharaoh and Egypt were at the disposition of an absolute Sovereign.20" (A New Systematic Theoligy of the Christian Faith, Robert Reymond)

The ftnotes to the above section are just as informative, here they are:
"19 Exodus 4:21; 7:3; 9:12; 10:1; 10:20; 10:27; 11:10; 14:4; 14:8; 14:17; see also Deuteronomy 2:30; Joshua 11:20; Psalm 105:25; Romans 9:18.

20 In his Divine Election (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Eerdmans, 1960) G. C. Berkouwer addresses the matter of the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart (212–16; 244–53). In keeping with his larger concern, namely, the avoidance of the equal ultimacy of election and reprobation in the divine decree, he declares that “we must beware that no deterministic interpretation is attached to [God’s sovereignty in hardening the heart of the nonelect]” (249, and also that “hardening is not the result of a fateful decree but an act of God which manifests its judgment upon man’s sinful self-determination” (251; emphasis supplied). But these assertions simply fail to come to grips with such passages as those in the Exodus story itself, Luke 22:22, Acts 2:23, 4:27, 28; 17:26, Romans 9:10–24; 11:5–10, and Ephesians 1:4–11, which unmistakably speak of the predeterminate counsel of the purposing God which embraces the differentiation that exists between elect and nonelect men as well as sin and evil. Berkouwer is blinded to the obvious by his determination to view the teachings of all these passages as in no way related to a divine decree but rather as restricted only to the history of salvation (212–13) and thus to an “either-or” only in connection with Christ and his salvation. As if the history of salvation and the “either-or” of the gospel are not to be related to God’s eternal decree! While we must insist on the equal ultimacy of election and reprobation in the divine decree, we must not speak of an exact identity of divine causality behind both. For while divine election is alone the root cause of the sinner’s salvation, divine reprobation takes into account the reprobate’s sin, apart from which his condemnation must never be conceived and for which God is in no way the chargeable cause (see Confession of Faith, III/vii). John Murray rightly cautions:
`The necessary distinctions which must be observed, in respect of causality, between election unto life … and “reprobation” unto death … do not in the least interfere with the truth which is the real question at issue, to wit, the pure sovereignty of the differentiation inhering in the counsel of God’s will.… The “equal ultimacy” is here inviolate. God differentiated between men in his eternal decree; he made men to differ. And, ultimately, the only explanation of the differentiation is the sovereign will of God. (Collected Writings of John Murray [Edinburgh: Banner of Truth], 4:330.)

Finally, when Berkouwer urges, over against H. Hoeksema, that heart-hardening is not the purpose of preaching to the nonelect, I concur, in the sense that it is not the only purpose. But it is one purpose. Many Scriptures affirm that heart-hardening is an effect, and thus one purpose, of preaching to the nonelect (see Isa. 6:9–13; Mark 4:11–12; John 9:39; 12:38–40; 2 Cor. 2:15–16)." (A New Systematic Theoligy of the Christian Faith, Robert Reymond)

blessings,
Ken

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by epistemaniac:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The Bible says (along with the texts given by npetreley) that God hardens hearts (hinders from repenting) like that of the Pharaoh's.

While you are correct that the Bible does say that God hardens hearts as with Pharaoh, "harden their heart" does not mean "hinder from repenting" as you stated. The result of God's actions hardened Pharaoh's heart. He blessed His people, and was persistent each time Pharaoh hardened HIS OWN heart. God knew exactly what would harden Pharaoh's heart that final time, and went about doing it.
Look at it like this. If I said to my wife "I am going to tick that guy off standing over there" and kicked him in the leg, did I directly or indirectly "tick that guy off"? I believe this is what God meant in discussing hardening Pharaoh's heart. Pharaoh was sinning against God in not letting His people go. If God ACTUALLY hardened Pharaoh's heart (hindered him from repenting), He would have caused Pharaoh to sin, making God the author of that sin. I don't buy into that lie, that God caused Pharaoh to sin.

There is Scripture that states plainly that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, and Scripture that states God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Rightly dividing the Word will bring you to the correct conclusion. </font>[/QUOTE]It seems pretty obvious that God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not repent, ie that he would not repent of the sin of having the children of Israel as his slaves. If God prevented the Pharaoh from releasing the Israelites by the hardening of his heart, then it is manifestly clear that the hardening of his heart is what prevented the Pharaoh from repenting and thus, releasing the Israelites. Why else? Especially since God tells us exactly why He hardened the Pharaoh's heart so that he would not repent and let the Israelites go, ie for His greater glory.


And God is said to harden Pharaoh's heart before Pharaoh is ever said to speak of hardening his own heart, and that is rightly dividing the word.

Exo 4:21 NKJV And the LORD said to Moses, When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go."

This is the first passage dealing with the hardening of the Pharaoh's heart, prior to this, it is not said that the Pharaoh would harden his own heart. Plainly God hardened the Pharaoh's heart so that he would not let the Israelites go, and this was the Pharaoh's sin. God's hardening of the Pharaoh's heart was not itself sin, as God is the Potter and he has a right to do with the clay whatever it is He sees fit to do.

So;

First, God hardens Pharaoh's heart.
Second, Pharaoh is said to harden his own heart.
Third, it is said that the Pharaoh would hardene his heart just as God said he would do as a result of Him hardening the Pharaoh's heart in the first place, and that this is the inevitable response of God hardening the Pharaoh's heart for God's greater purpose which God tells us about in chapter 7, see below.

We are told again that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, and the reason God hardened it;
Exo 7:3-5 NKJV And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. (4) But Pharaoh will not heed you, so that I may lay My hand on Egypt and bring My armies and My people, the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. (5) And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the children of Israel from among them."

I can't believe you even want to quibble over something so obvious, hardening the Pharaoh's heart is what prevented the Pharaoh from repenting... what else would it be for heaven's sake?

And so there is your question webdog, if God's activity of hardening the Pharaoh's heart was not for the purpose of the Pharaoh not repenting, what was the point of it?

BTW, keep in mind that Hebrew experts Keil and Delitzsch say that when God is said to harden Pharaoh's heart, the Hebrew literally means:
"I will make his heart firm, so that it will not move, his feelings and attitude towards Israel will not change... I will make Pharaoh's heart hard, or unfeeling;.... “I have made his heart heavy,” i.e., obtuse, or insensible to impressions or divine influences."

I'd say you have got an impossible task ahead of you.

The following ought to really make your day....

"As to myself, I am certainly not ashamed of speaking as the Holy Spirit speaks, nor do I hesitate to believe what so often occurs in Scripture, that God gives the wicked over to a reprobate mind, gives them up to vile affections, blinds their minds and hardens their hearts. But they object, that in this way God would be made the author of sin; which would be a detestable impiety. I reply, that God is very far from the reach of blame, when he is said to exercise his judgments: wherefore, if blindness be a judgment of God, it ought not to be brought inaccusation against him, that he inflicts punishment. But if the cause be often concealed from us, we should remember that God’s judgments are not without reason called a “great deep,” and, therefore, let us regard them with admiration and not with railing. But those who substitute his permission in the place of his act, not only deprive him of his authority as a judge, but in their repining, subject him to a weighty reproach, since they granthim no more of justice than their senses can understand." (John Calvin)


blessings,
Ken </font>[/QUOTE]Ken, in this long post you failed to address HOW God hardened Pharaoh's heart. How do you think He did? Did He put sinful thoughts in Pharaoh's mind? Did He cause Pharaoh to hate Moses and the Israelites? HOW did God harden Pharaoh's heart? Could it be indirectly by the events God has put forth? Is it a possibility to you this phrase could have meant "indirectly", and still would have been considered "hardening his heart"?

 

[DesiderioDomini]

Back to the OP (all this calvinism talk is asinine to me).....

By the definition of Calvinsm, the answer would be no. Anything else would turn God into a sinister game of Charades.

Is God a cruel monster? No. He is Holy, however, but that doesnt mean he goes around cruely teasing people he intentionally blinded. How could such a being ever claim to be Holy?

 

[william s. correa]

Originally posted by DesiderioDomini:
Back to the OP (all this calvinism talk is asinine to me).....

By the definition of Calvinsm, the answer would be no. Anything else would turn God into a sinister game of Charades.

Is God a cruel monster? No. He is Holy, however, but that doesnt mean he goes around cruely teasing people he intentionally blinded. How could such a being ever claim to be Holy?

HUH?

 

[william s. correa]

It's God's goodness that brings sinners to repentance!

 

[epistemaniac]

webdog, you said

Ken, in this long post you failed to address HOW God hardened Pharaoh's heart. How do you think He did? Did He put sinful thoughts in Pharaoh's mind? Did He cause Pharaoh to hate Moses and the Israelites? HOW did God harden Pharaoh's heart? Could it be indirectly by the events God has put forth? Is it a possibility to you this phrase could have meant "indirectly", and still would have been considered "hardening his heart"?

Oh... I didn't know I was supposed to address that question... so its pretty hard to fail at what you were not trying to do

I do know that you did not answer my question... namely regarding your denial that the purpose of hardening Pharaoh's heart was so that he would not repent, and thus my question was to you; if the hardening was not so he would not repent, what then was the purpose of the hardening?

The fact is, we are told repeatedly throughout the passage in Exodus that the Pharaoh's heart was hardened so that he would not repent and let the Israelites go, so that God's glory may be manifested in showing His superiority over the Egyptian gods. Your admittance of such would be a high mark of integrity on your part, to admit when you are wrong is a good thing.

And the larger purpose in all this is to show the level of sovereignty that the Lord has over the hearts of all people, for not only is the Lord said to harden Pharaoh's heart, He also hardens the hearts of Pharaoh's servants, and the Egyptians in general;

Exo 9:34 esv But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet again and hardened his heart, he and his servants.

Exo 14:17-18 esv And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen.
(18) And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I have gotten glory over Pharaoh, his chariots, and his horsemen."

Exo 10:1 esv Then the Lord said to Moses, Go in to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them,"

So this shows God's ultimate total sovereignty over the hearts of everyone, individual Kings and Pharaoh's, down to servants and the general population. He can harden hearts, He can soften them; He can take out a heart of stone and put in a heart of flesh; He can cause one person to be born again-- to be born of the Spirit, and He can pass by another one; He has mercy on whom He wills and He hardens whom He wills, He has compassion and mercy on whom He wills, and He gives others the justice they deserve; He is the Potter and we are the clay.


As to the "how" God hardened his heart, I am afraid I can't answer that because it does not seem that the Bible itself answers that question.

Interestingly, as a result of Moses first request to the Pharaoh to let the Israelites go, the Pharaoh becomes angry and says that the Israelites are to make as many bricks as they did before, only this time without being supplied the straw... failure to do this would end in physical punishment and even death... so we have the Lord hardening Pharaoh's heart, with the result that "innocent" Israelites would be killed.

Surely the Lord knew this would happen as a result of His hardening of Pharaoh's heart, so is He guilty of the death of the Israelites who were punished as a result of the Pharaoh's heart being hardened? Of course not. But He knew of the sin to come, and He used that sin for His own greater ends. I do not know what all those purposes were, all I know is that as a result of God hardening the Pharaoh's heart, sin resulted. But God is not thereby the author of sin.

Likewise, those responsible for the death of Jesus will be held accountable, but it is also the case that the death of Jesus was preordained to happen.
Act 3:18 esv But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer, he thus fulfilled.
Act 4:26-28 esv The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed (27) for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, (28) to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.”

How this all works out I do not pretend to know, but I will not deny God's sovereignty over mankind's heart so as to not offend the sensibilities of those who advocate what I take to be a non-biblical notion of free will. Again, I direct you to these wise words:

“As to myself, I am certainly not ashamed of speaking as the Holy Spirit speaks, nor do I hesitate to believe what so often occurs in Scripture, that God gives the wicked over to a reprobate mind, gives them up to vile affections, blinds their minds and hardens their hearts. But they object, that in this way God would be made the author of sin; which would be a detestable impiety. I reply, that God is very far from the reach of blame, when he is said to exercise his judgments: wherefore, if blindness be a judgment of God, it ought not to be brought inaccusation against him, that he inflicts punishment. But if the cause be often concealed from us, we should remember that God’s judgments are not without reason called a “great deep,” and, therefore, let us regard them with admiration and not with railing. But those who substitute his permission in the place of his act, not only deprive him of his authority as a judge, but in their repining, subject him to a weighty reproach, since they grant him no more of justice than their senses can understand." (John Calvin)

blessings,
Ken

 

[Me4Him]

I reply, that God is very far from the reach of blame, when he is said to exercise his judgments: wherefore, if blindness be a judgment of God, it ought not to be brought inaccusation against him, that he inflicts punishment. But if the cause be often concealed from us, we should remember that God’s judgments are not without reason called a “great deep,” and, therefore, let us regard them with admiration and not with railing. But those who substitute his permission in the place of his act, not only deprive him of his authority as a judge, but in their repining, subject him to a weighty reproach, since they grant him no more of justice than their senses can understand." (John Calvin)

if blindness be a judgment of God,

if the... "cause"... be often concealed from us, we should remember that God’s judgments are not without reason called a “great deep,”

Man reaps what man sows, if man don't sow it, man don't reap it, that is the Cause (Great deep) behind all of God's Judgments/punishments,

Ya'll accuse God of sowing Pharaoh's condemnation by predestination, rather than pharaoh reaping what he sowed.

that God gives the wicked over to a reprobate mind, gives them up to vile affections, blinds their minds and hardens their hearts. But they object, that in this way God would be made the author of sin; which would be a detestable impiety. I reply, that God is very far from the reach of blame, when he is said to exercise his judgments:

In the same way God will let a person chose Satan's side, he'll let a person chose his side, God has never saved anyone unless they ask to be saved.

The reason God is far from blame, he doesn't predestine any act of sin, judgment/condemnation comes "AFTER" and be CAUSE of the act, not before, what's sowed, is what's reaped.

Ga 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

If God gives the wicked over to a reprobate main, and Judgement only come after the sin, then you have to ask what was the sin they committed that CAUSED God to turn them over to that reprobate mind, as was done with Pharaoh????

if the cause be often concealed from us, we should remember that God’s judgments are not without reason called a “great deep,”

predestination doesn't need a CAUSE for God's judgement/condemnation,


And in this case, the "Cause" of their condemnation would not be sin, but God's sovereign will/predestination, and Judgment day, the world's biggest farce.