Can the Non-Elect Come Under Conviction?

[Brother Bob]

 

[epistemaniac]

In the same way God will let a person chose Satan's side, he'll let a person chose his side, God has never saved anyone unless they ask to be saved.

really? this is simply wrong.... for I seem to recall one Saul of Tarsus who did anything but ask to be saved... before Saul ever said the sinners prayer, signed a membership card or walked down an aisle... we read
Act 9:15-16 esv But the Lord said to him, (Ananias) Go, for he (Saul) is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel.
(16) For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name."

you said

The reason God is far from blame, he doesn't predestine any act of sin, judgment/condemnation comes "AFTER" and be CAUSE of the act, not before, what's sowed, is what's reaped.

Act 4:26-28 esv The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed (27) for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, (28) to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.”

also Judas...

Joh 17:12 esv While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Act 1:16 esv Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.

others who were reprobate...

Jud 1:4 NKJV For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

you said

If God gives the wicked over to a reprobate main, and Judgement only come after the sin, then you have to ask what was the sin they committed that CAUSED God to turn them over to that reprobate mind, as was done with Pharaoh????

as far as reprobation goes, God passes over many to whom salvation will not come, so the sin that they commit comes from the fact that they are sinners... that is, people sin because they are sinners, they do not become sinners when they sin... so God is just in passing over them, giving them over to the sins they will be condemned for committing. So judgment may come after the sin, but the sin itself was, as in the case of Judas and those who sinfully crucified Christ, predestined to occur. That is what the Bible says, like it or not.

All sin comes about because God allows it, what other reason could there be? So in this sense, God predestines all sin. This simply has to be. here's why: God is omniscient, so He knows about every sin before it ever happens. If God is omnipotent, then He is powerful enough to stop any sin from happening, if He wanted to. Since He knows about every sin before it happens, and is powerful enough to stop any sin from happening, then God must allow all sin to happen for His own greater good purpose, and though He knows about every sin before it is committed, and though He allows every sin to take place, He will punish the very sin that He allowed to take place. The only way to get around this is to deny that God has absolute exhaustive foreknowledge like the heretics, the Open Theists and Socinians.

blessings,
Ken

 

[Brother Bob]

Paul wasn't saved until He did what the Lord commanded.

 

[epistemaniac]

As far as the OP goes.... last night before I went to sleep I was thinking... God allows people to hear the gospel whom He knows, from all eternity, will never respond to the Gospel. So in the Calvinistic scheme, if God is unjust in sending the gospel to those He knows will never be able to respond due to election etc, then He is also unjust in allowing persons to hear the Gospel whom, according to the Arminian scheme, He, after "looking down the corridors of time" knew from all eternity would never exercise their free will and believe. So why does God bother to providentially arrange circumstances so that these people, (whom He knows will never respond to the gospel), so that they hear the gospel? Its not as if God will be surprised or wrong about His beliefs concerning the future, right? So if God knows from the foundation of the world that John Doe will never believe, then no matter what, John Doe will never believe. Otherwise, God could be wrong about the future.

Secondly, if God is omniscient and omnipotent, then it seems as if God would be able to know what set of circumstances would need to entail in order for John Doe to freely believe. God knows John Doe better then John Doe knows himself. Surely, God knows John Doe so well that He knows what it would take for John to exercise saving faith. Maybe John (in the Arminian scheme) needs to hear a certain version of the Kalam Cosmological argument in order to believe, but suppose God knows this, but never providentially arranges circumstances so that this ever happens? Is God therefore culpable because He never brings to pass the necessary set of circumstances for John to believe?

blessings,
Ken

 

[epistemaniac]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Paul wasn't saved until He did what the Lord commanded.

show me in the Bible where it says this... I know that Saul did what the Lord commanded... but show where it specifically says, in the passage in Acts where the whole story is recounted for us, that after Saul did what the Lord commanded, he was saved.... or that just because he went into the city, he was saved.... a person is not saved until they recieve the Holy Spirit, and Saul did not recieve the Holy Spirit until Ananias prayed for him...

Act 9:17-22 NKJV And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit. (18) Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized. (19) So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.(20) Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God. (21) Then all who heard were amazed, and said, Is this not he who destroyed those who called on this name in Jerusalem, and has come here for that purpose, so that he might bring them bound to the chief priests? (22) But Saul increased all the more in strength, and confounded the Jews who dwelt in Damascus, proving that this Jesus is the Christ."

blessings,
Ken

 

[epistemaniac]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Paul wasn't saved until He did what the Lord commanded.

plus... this sounds an awful lot like salvation by works....

blessings,
Ken

 

[Brother Bob]

that after Saul did what the Lord commanded, he was saved.... or that just because he went into the city, he was saved.... a person is not saved until they recieve the Holy Spirit, and Saul did not recieve the Holy Spirit until Ananias prayed for him...

What you think you just said? He was commanded to go to Ananias


Acts, chapter 9
"6": And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

"11": And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

"12": And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

"13": Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

"14": And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.

"15": But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

"16": For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

"17": And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.


If you will have it but I doubt it. Its like the prodical son coming home to the Father and then the Father putting a robe on him.

 

[epistemaniac]

yes, he was commanded to go to Ananias... but since when does going to see another person equal salvation?

looks to me like what saved him was the Holy Ghost coming on him... we see no evidence of him saying a sinners prayer or anything that looks remotely like the common way Arminianism teaches regarding how a person is saved... the Soveriegn Lord, the Holy Spirit, caused Saul to be born again... and all this was originally in response to Me4him who said

God has never saved anyone unless they ask to be saved.

well... here we have exhibit A, a person who was saved without asking... Saul was touched by the Holy Spirit, filled with the Holy Spirit, and that is when he was saved, Saul did not even know what to ask for!!... for no one is saved unless this happens (until and unless they have the Spirit), so Saul was not saved by simply going to Ananias... the Scriptures say if you do not have the Spirit, you are not one of His own...
Rom 8:9 NKJV But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

in fact, according to the Arminian scheme, this whole event was just downright rude of the Lord... forcing Himself on Saul that way! Who does He think He is anyway? God?

blessings,
Ken

 

[Brother Bob]

epistemaniac;
He was praying, what do you think he was praying for??

Who does He think He is? King of King and Lord of Lords and Paul was a chosen vessel. Now if you want to talk about the "elect" I will agree that Paul was one of them because he was part of God's plan of Salvation along with the rest of the Apostles who were pre-chosen. I always believed that there are some who were chosen to fulfill The plan of Salvation.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by epistemaniac:


in fact, according to the Arminian scheme, this whole event was just downright rude of the Lord... forcing Himself on Saul that way! Who does He think He is anyway? God?

blessings,
Ken

Very well put. Poor old Paul seemed to have been very much "forced" in the way non calvinists object to, huh? Christ met him on the road, blinded him, and saved him. There certainly doesn't seem to be too much of a "I hope Saul accepts me" type of attitude in their dialogue.

 

[Brother Bob]

Always have to get down don't we?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
epistemaniac;
He was praying, what do you think he was praying for??

Who does He think He is? King of King and Lord of Lords and Paul was a chosen vessel. Now if you want to talk about the "elect" I will agree that Paul was one of them because he was part of God's plan of Salvation along with the rest of the Apostles who were pre-chosen. I always believed that there are some who were chosen to fulfill The plan of Salvation.

So you are saying that they were saved differently from the rest of us? That somehow your assertion that it is unjust for God not to let us make the sovereign choice but fully just for Him to deny that "right" to the Apostles?

How are we not ALL necessary to fulfill the plan of salvation? There are several people in the line that leads to you that had to be saved in order for you to be saved. Those people and their salvation were very much necessary for your salvation... and this is true for each and every believer. We all must be part of God's plan.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Always have to get down don't we?

Huh?

BTW, I don't think you ever answered my question. What is the critical difference between the lost and the saved? If the saved are saved due to a good choice and the lost are lost due to a bad choice... then how do you avoid the necessary conclusion that we are saved by our own goodness (at least in part)?

I agree completely that the lost are lost because of their willful sin and rebellion against God. However I disagree that any sinner has the goodness to even add a "good decision to believe" to Christ's work on the cross.

 

[Brother Bob]

Because the plan of Salvation is already fulfilled that is why Jesus said "it is finished".

Goodness? Don't know what you are talking about. You can call it goodness if you like but I call it following the good Spirit instead of the evil one. I have never, nor do I believe any man can save himself, C or A but believe you have to follow the Spirit of God which "draws all men".

I am saying Paul was a chosen vessel and you and I are not.

 

[saturneptune]

Anyone who is saved by faith and the grace of Jesus Christ is chosen. There is no Plan A and Plan B.

 

[Brother Bob]

That is right they are chosen out of the world.

But that was not what we were talking about at all we were talking about the pre-chosen.

 

[Tom Butler]

By definition the chosen are the pre-chosen. Since God is the same today, yesterday and forever, whoever he chooses today, he has always chosen.

 

[Brother Bob]

He was talking to His Apostles of which were a part of the plan of Salvation which Jesus stood as a slain Lamb before the foundation of the world but I don't claim to be an Apostle.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
He was talking to His Apostles of which were a part of the plan of Salvation which Jesus stood as a slain Lamb before the foundation of the world but I don't claim to be an Apostle.

Here are the things free willers must do in order to avoid the problem of election.

1. Misinterpret all the clear passages about election as referring ONLY to someone. Only to the apostles. Only to the Jews. Only to whomever is necessary to make sure it doesn't apply to all believers.

2. Misinterpret all the passages with words like "world" to mean every person without exception, even when the context demands all peoples without distinction of race, nationality, etc.

3. Misinterpret passages with words like "any" and "all" to mean all people without exception, even when the context demands "all [of the elect]" and "any [of the elect]". (See 2 Peter 3:9)

4. Maintain the extra-Biblical opinion that God would not command people to choose if they didn't have the ability to choose. This is the most astounding one of all, since the Bible never says this, and it is the very foundation of the Pelagian heresy.

That's an awful lot of mangling one has to do in order to prop up the dead corpse that is the doctrine of salvation by free will and claim "it's alive, I tell you, it's alive!"

 

[Brother Bob]

Here are the things Calvinists must do in order to avoid the problem of Salvation to all who will believe.

1. Misinterpret all the clear passages about "God so loved the whole world that whosoever would believe would not perish but have everlasting life.

2. Misinterpret all the passages with words like "world" to mean a select group, even when the context demands all peoples without distinction of race, nationality, etc.

3. Misinterpret passages with words like "any" and "all" to mean a select group without exception, even when the context demands "all means all" and "every creature". (See Mark 16:15)

4. Maintain the extra-Biblical opinion that God didn't mean all when He said "all" to choose. This is the most astounding one of all, since the Bible never says this, Salvation is not to everyone who will believe.

That's an awful lot of mangling one has to do in order to not see that dead means dead in sin; such as when the apostle said to the Lord, "let me tarry that I may bury my father" and He said let the dead bury the dead, talking about natural death and spiritual death. It is for sure all those evil spirits knew Him", also all those who came out to be baptized by John and he turned them away because they didn't have the fruits, that is the doctrine of salvation by calvinism and claim "it's dead therefore it can't do nothing, I tell you, it's dead, why won't you listen to me instead of the Scriptures!"