can we agree on this?

[psalms109:31]

scripture

Hello Psalms.



Cool but I am 57 and need more help. I am having problems understanding your posts not God's revelation, did you answer my question?
I see you are saying that God doesn't let everyone know about Him.
I see that you have linked 'humble and meek' with 'little children'. Does this mean that all little children are saved with knowledge of God's will and at some point they become not humble and not meek and not saved?

john.

Your age means nothing to God. Eternity could not make us understand all that God has for us or become more knowledgeable than Him.

I have no problem that it is God who does the work in us.

I am a child depending on God I will never out mature Him.

A wise man is meek and humble who trust in the Lord, not in our own understanding. He direct their paths.

I have no problem with God hiding the truth from the wise and learned and reavealing the truth to little children , do you?

The greatest among us men not God is a child.

 

[johnp.]

Your age means nothing to God.

My Father is crazy about me Psalms. He is not only interested in how many hairs I have on my head but everything else about me.

Eternity could not make us understand all that God has for us or become more knowledgeable than Him.

One does not need to understand love after one has understood love. To fall into an eternal bliss takes no understanding but giving, then whatever we need to know God will tell us. Jehovah Google.

I have no problem that it is God who does the work in us.

And nor do I.

I am a child depending on God I will never out mature Him.

So, if you are a child then you believe God has revealed Himself to you because you were humble and meek or did He make you humble and meek?

A wise man is meek and humble who trust in the Lord, not in our own understanding.

The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom as they say. Do you fear God Psalms?

He direct their paths.

He directs all men's paths doesn't he? PR 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

I have no problem with God hiding the truth from the wise...

But if the wise are meek and humble... You see, you are using the word 'wise' in a different way? This is could be confusing. It is exploitable, to muddy the water.

I have no problem with God hiding the truth from the wise and learned and reavealing the truth to little children , do you?

But are the little children little children or are they adults with simplicity? I am a child depending on God I will never out mature Him.
Why do you say you will never 'out mature' God? It isn't as if I said you could is it? What we will be has not been made know yet, 1 John 3:2.

I have no trouble with anything He does.

The greatest among us men not God is a child.

Ali said he was. The greatest? JN 14:28 "You heard me say, `I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
Does greater equate with more importance or better or wiser or what?

Thanks Psalms.

john.

 

[psalms109:31]

Love

So, if you are a child then you believe God has revealed Himself to you because you were humble and meek or did He make you humble and meek?

Neither i started my walk by trusting in Him and He worked in my life to change me, if I turned away from Him He would of not changed me. Instead of teaching men that they are not able to come, but tell them the reason why they should. We need to know we are not to be aragont, but afraid if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare us either. We are to be meek and humble. God taught me through His word, so His word that lights my path.

The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom as they say. Do you fear God Psalms?

Yes in the beginning,but not any longer. Because He first loved me. If I disown Jesus He will disown me.If I am unfaithful, He is faithful. If He say's He will disown me He will, because God is faithful to His word. If I stay in Jesus He will stay in me, because Jesus cannot disown Himself. I have no fear of God as long as I stay on the path He set out for me.

He directs all men's paths doesn't he? PR 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

I agree, God did everything in the old testiment to direct the path of men for Jesus to come to bring salvation to all men. Today God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and made us the messengers

But if the wise are meek and humble... You see, you are using the word 'wise' in a different way? This is could be confusing. It is exploitable, to muddy the water.

Many wise are just wise in thier own eyes and need to be humble and meek.

Romans 11:19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

 

[skypair]

johnp,

I'll spell it out for you. Job said, "Even if I was innocent I would still need God's mercy." If you can figure out the implications of this then good.

Absolutely! #1: God's mercy is NOT God's salvation. God's mercy would be like me having good parents or being protected from the consequences of having bad parents. There are always bad things that come as a result of someone else's sin. That's when God's mercy comes in. Get it?

Calvinists can believe their children are saved, and they should, because scripture is explicit on the point.

Uh -- how's that? Or better -- WHERE'S that?

innocence doesn't cut it with God in judgement? Scripture denies innocence is an excuse you must accept Job.

As usual, you compare apples to oranges, john. Why are you comparing what Job says about himself, AN ADULT, with the state of infants? Can you not for one second reply to the issue??


skypair

 

[skypair]

1Ki.8:46: "There is no one who does not sin."

Scripture indicates ADULTS in this passage.

Ps.143:2: "No one living (infants in the womb are living) is righteous before you (God)."

Innocence is nowhere in the Bible equated with righteousness -- so that statement is true. Righteousness means righteous as God. Obviously, an innocent infant cannot have the righteousness of God.

Prov.20:9; Ecc.7:20; Rom.3:10,12,23; 1 Jn.1:8. just to mention a few.

Did you notice that those verses talk about people who CAN TALK? or about MEN, not infants? Do you want to prove your point so badly that you won't find one where infants are said to have sin?

What about David, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" Ps.51:5

Poetic license, brutus. Tell me what specific sin David indicts himself for and you will make your argument believable.

How about Ps. 58:3 which tells us, "Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies."

Poetic license again -- infants can't speak. How could you possibly take such a statement as literal regarding the guilt of infants?

You see my friend, the Bible clearly opposes Pelagianisms central idea that humans are born without sinful tendencies.

Yes -- tendencies, NOT sin guilt.

Why is it that supposedly sinless, morally innocent infants who according to you are supposedly born without sinful natures and tendencies always grow into sinful adults?

First off, I acknowledge "sin nature" for what it is -- and infants have it! You're maliciously slandering what I said!

Now I will give you the benefit of the doubt. I have written numerous times on your specific question on why they become sinful. Here it is: It is the "survival instinct" that ALL have that gets distorted to desiring WANTS rather than just one's NEEDS. If you look at the Garden of Eden, there was no want lacking, was there? But being cast out, everything came by effort causing men to not just survive but to lust after things he didn't need.

It has by the way, become quite obvious that you are Pelagian in your belief.

Oh blow it out your ear! Stop with the name-calling -- especially when you mistook what I said to begin with!

It's wrong to propose a "scheme" of salvation in which neither Christ as an atoning sacrifice, nor the Spirit as a sanctifier, could have anything to do in saving children;

Do you just ignore what I said?? I said that if they do not survive to adulthood, they come through Christ and the Spirit in the MK. ALL will bow the knee before Christ -- and none ignorantly, BTW! Infants resurrected on account of innocence will bow the knee in the MK or at the GWT if they reject Him.

So wherever our search for an answer leads us, it must be consistent with the teaching of Scripture that all humans except Jesus Christ are born with a sinful nature.

Yes -- and so I suggest you investigate what I am telling you rather than cling perilously to your unfounded theology!

skypair

 

[Rippon]

So the Bible doesn't mean what it says SP ? Ps. 51:5 and 58:3 are just figurative ? Just some decorative backdrops ? What do those passages convey ? You have to either submit to the authority of Holy Writ or come out and say plainly that you don't believe God's Word . Innocence of babies is not a scriptural doctrine . You won't admit it , but Bible truth still stands . Besides innocence has a righteous connotation -- babies do not have that God-quality .

 

[skypair]

So the Bible doesn't mean what it says SP ? Ps. 51:5 and 58:3 are just figurative ? Just some decorative backdrops ? What do those passages convey ? You have to either submit to the authority of Holy Writ or come out and say plainly that you don't believe God's Word . Innocence of babies is not a scriptural doctrine . You won't admit it , but Bible truth still stands . .

I showed you my biblical proof and it would seem from my perspective that it is YOU that will not submit to Holy Writ." Do you deny, for instance, that the Psalms are poetry?

"Innocence of babies" not scriptural doctrine? How is that Jesus said, "Of such is the kingdom of God?" What possible "qualification" does a child have for the kingdom of God if not innocence?

Besides innocence has a righteous connotation -- babies do not have that God-quality.

Ah -- you're starting to understand what I say. That's good, at least. Yes, there is a distinction between "innoncent" and "righteous." That is why children will 1) go to heaven if they die and 2) will come to Jesus in the MK with the rest of the "just" but not yet sanctified.

I'd say your need is to understand this last thought.

skypair

 

[johnp.]

Hello Psalms

You say that your Christian life started in fear but you no longer live in fear. But you say that He will cut you off if you do not live according to His demand. How do you square these two conflicting ideas? One, that you have no fear and two, you will get cut off if you don't perform according to His demand?
If you do not fear and continuing salvation depends on you then you must be very sure of yourself. Is that right.

john.

 

[johnp.]

skypair.

Get it?

It's you that hasn't got it. You say that children are innocent and I replied that Job said that even if he was innocent he would still need God's mercy.

JOB 9:15 Though I were innocent, I could not answer him; I could only plead with my Judge for mercy.
JOB 9:20 Even if I were innocent, my mouth would condemn me; if I were blameless, it would pronounce me guilty.

Even if Job was innocent... Children are innocent you say but scripture says even if children are innocent they would still need God's mercy for salvation.

Why are you comparing what Job says about himself, AN ADULT, with the state of infants? Can you not for one second reply to the issue??

Job isn't saying he is innocent in these verses but 'even if' he was. Do you understand this? Try again.

Calvinists can believe their children are saved, and they should, because scripture is explicit on the point.

Uh -- how's that? Or better -- WHERE'S that?

PS 103:17 But from everlasting to everlasting the LORD's love is with those who fear him, and his righteousness with their children's children--

john.

 

[psalms109:31]

Endure to the end

Hello Psalms

You say that your Christian life started in fear but you no longer live in fear. But you say that He will cut you off if you do not live according to His demand. How do you square these two conflicting ideas? One, that you have no fear and two, you will get cut off if you don't perform according to His demand?
If you do not fear and continuing salvation depends on you then you must be very sure of yourself. Is that right.

john.

God say's we must endure to the end to be saved, our dependance for our salvation is God through Jesus.

There is no evidence that we are apart of the elect, but by showing our faith by what we do.

We should never lose our focus that we are children depending on God.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Psalms.

We should never lose our focus that we are children depending on God.

This seems contradictory to me. Are you depending on God to keep you safe or are you responsible for that. If you are responsible for keeping your focus on God what assurance have you got, why do you not fear God because you still may face an adverse judgement. Are you sure of yourself and how do you know if you are still on the straight and narrow?

God say's we must endure to the end to be saved...

But you also say we are children depending on God. Either one depends on oneself or one is to depend on God but you are saying both.

john.

 

[psalms109:31]

Turn away

Hello Psalms.



This seems contradictory to me. Are you depending on God to keep you safe or are you responsible for that. If you are responsible for keeping your focus on God what assurance have you got, why do you not fear God because you still may face an adverse judgement. Are you sure of yourself and how do you know if you are still on the straight and narrow?



But you also say we are children depending on God. Either one depends on oneself or one is to depend on God but you are saying both.

john.

If we have turned away from Jesus we should be living in fear our only hope is Jesus.

See either way you slice it you are depending on yourself. You are depending that God choose you over someone else. You have really only chosen yourself and say God choose you.

If you were depending on God you would simple say that, because we are saved by grace through faith and our faith is shown by what you do.

If God say's I must endure to the end to be saved, I must believe Him over you.

I'm not talking about a Peter denying Jesus, but to walk away and never return.

 

[johnp.]

See either way you slice it you are depending on yourself.

Not for my salvation Psalms.

You are depending that God choose you over someone else.

Not so, I trust Jesus died for me. I'm not depending 'that God' I'm depending 'on God'. You on the other hand appear to be saying that it is you that you need to depend on. For you not to walk away. In which way do you depend on God?

You have really only chosen yourself and say God choose you.

No, I listened to Jesus and He said that if I believed in Him then He would give me everlasting life now. How can one walk away from everlasting life? How can one lose everlasting life, it would not have been everlasting would it?

John 6:47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

has everlasting life. It is not a future thing but a present condition for all Christians.

If God say's I must endure to the end to be saved, I must believe Him over you.

Where have I said one does not need to endure? What I'm asking is are you enduring in your own strength or are you kept by Jesus. Christians have already overcome.

1 John 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

I'm not talking about a Peter denying Jesus, but to walk away and never return.

This ignores the reality of the situation. God has entered His Temple with a promise never to leave again. Where can I walk away to to escape from Him who lives in me? Does the Good Shepherd lose sheep? Can sheep evict the Lord from His Temple and becomes goats again? How can we rid ourselves of a new nature?

john.

 

[IFB Mole]

Brutus,

100% agree - THAT'S what the Bible says.

 

[psalms109:31]

Depend on God

Not for my salvation Psalms.



Not so, I trust Jesus died for me. I'm not depending 'that God' I'm depending 'on God'. You on the other hand appear to be saying that it is you that you need to depend on. For you not to walk away. In which way do you depend on God?



No, I listened to Jesus and He said that if I believed in Him then He would give me everlasting life now. How can one walk away from everlasting life? How can one lose everlasting life, it would not have been everlasting would it?

John 6:47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

has everlasting life. It is not a future thing but a present condition for all Christians.



Where have I said one does not need to endure? What I'm asking is are you enduring in your own strength or are you kept by Jesus. Christians have already overcome.

1 John 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.



This ignores the reality of the situation. God has entered His Temple with a promise never to leave again. Where can I walk away to to escape from Him who lives in me? Does the Good Shepherd lose sheep? Can sheep evict the Lord from His Temple and becomes goats again? How can we rid ourselves of a new nature?

john.

Which one is it do you depend on God or do you depend on your belief.

To me trust God and in my unbelief I pray that God will help in my unbelieve.

You say you depend on God then you say you depend on your belief.

The truth of the matter is as God says it is those who endure to the end that is saved, because they are the one's who truely depend on God.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Psalms.

Which one is it do you depend on God or do you depend on your belief.

I believe Jesus died for my sins and I keep my gaze on Him. I do not depend on my faith but my faith allows me to depend on Jesus. Let the weary rest is another thing I believe.

To me trust God and in my unbelief I pray that God will help in my unbelieve.

Then you can be sure He will increase your faith because that is what He wants to do. Ask and it will be given. Ask for wisdom and knowledge and love, there is no law against these things.

You do not need to have faith in your belief, I take my salvation for granted and never give it a thought because I keep my mind on Jesus not on myself. I believe He loves me and gave Himself for me, I don't question this love, it is Absolute.

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

No harm can befall me. Love protects me. Nothing I've ever done or will do will be held against me because love keeps no record of wrongs. Jesus loved me and died for me when I was God's enemy but now He calls me son, there is nothing He will not do to keep His pearl of great price safe. I cost Him all He had.

The truth of the matter is as God says it is those who endure to the end that is saved, because they are the one's who truely depend on God.

Yes, but one can know now that one's eternal security is assured or you are not trusting Jesus you are trusting in your own works?

john.

 

[psalms109:31]

Assurance

Our assurance is by remaining in Jesus Christ, outside of Jesus leads to distruction.

I have ensurance of my salvation with out disreguarding God word to remain in Him , endure to the end to be saved. Continue in Gods kindness or we also will be cut out and if we disown Him, He will disown us.We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.

 

[MB]

Hi Brutus;

Skypair:First, allow me to once again say to you that I never said that I believe that infants go to hell, that is your assumption not my inferrence. Now, one more time. The claim of human sinlessness is clearly and forcefully denied throughout the Bible.

1Ki.8:46: "There is no one who does not sin."
Ps.143:2: "No one living (infants in the womb are living)is righteous before you (God)."
Prov.20:9; Ecc.7:20; Rom.3:10,12,23; 1 Jn.1:8. just to mention a few.

What about David, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" Ps.51:5

How about Ps. 58:3 which tells us, "Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies."

You see my friend, the Bible clearly opposes Pelagianisms central idea that humans are born without sinful tendencies. Why is it that supposedly sinless, morally innocent infants who according to you are supposedly born without sinful natures and tendencies always grow into sinful adults? It has by the way, become quite obvious that you are Pelagian in your belief.


If we are seeking an answer to the question of infant salvation that is based on Scripture, then we cannot base our hope for infant salvation on the theory that infants are morally neutral and without sin. It's wrong to propose a "scheme" of salvation in which neither Christ as an atoning sacrifice, nor the Spirit as a sanctifier, could have anything to do in saving children; for if children are salvable upon the ground of what they are not (that is, not sinners), they are not salvable upon the ground of what Christ has done for them, or the Spirit may do in them. So wherever our search for an answer leads us, it must be consistent with the teaching of Scripture that all humans except Jesus Christ are born with a sinful nature.

Brutus :type:

I don't say Babies are with out sin but sin isn't accounted to them until they reach the age of accountablity.
I'm wondering how so many Calvinist agree with the OP. You see Calvinist believe in Particular election and it is there claim on the mercies of God. Many Calvinist on this board believe that they will be saved no matter what life brings to them, if they are first chosen to be saved. If this isn't a claim on God's mercy I'd like to know what is.
MB

 

[johnp.]

Hello Psalms.

I have ensurance of my salvation with out disreguarding God word to remain in Him...

If you have assurance that you will remain in Jesus then you have trust in yourself not Jesus unless you believe you are kept, if you do not believe you are kept Psalms you have assurance of yourself. Does Jesus really lose sheep?

2TI 2:12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;
John 6:47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

Can you see the contradiction in this? Can you explain your understanding of John 6:47 please, what's it saying?

At the same time if you look at 2 Tim 2:11 ...If we died with him, we will also live with him;
Seems to promise the same as John 6:47. Have you died with Him? Then you will live with Him. It's a promise I believe.

john.

 

[Brutus]

can we agree

Skypair: First, and foremost, I am not name calling! I simply stated a fact based on your position which aligns itself with Palagianism. Which is: the belief that all humans are born morally innocent. You sir cannot prove that to be a fact from the Bible. I'm going to say this one last time, so please let it sink in! I never, never, never said in any post that I believed that infants would go to hell, that is something that you manufactured in your own mind. What I did say was: If, do you understand that small word? If, God so chose to condemn infants to hell, who are we to say that He is unjust! That is all I said, you're the one who read more into it than was nescessary. Now since you have run your mouth about Calvinists, let tell you what Calvin himself had to say as an example concerning Mt. 19:14.
Calvin wrote that "Jesus bears witness that He wishes to receive children, and in the end He both embraces them in His arms and blesses them by laying His hands upon them. From this we gather that His grace reaches to this age of life also....It would be too cruel to exclude that age from the grace of redemption....They (children) are renewed by God's Spirit according to the measure of their age until by degrees and its own time this power hidden within them increases and shines forth openly....It is an irreligious audacity to drive from Christ's fold those whom He nursed in His bosom, and to shut the door on them as strangers when He did not wish to forbid them." Now, I truely believe that the souls of all departed infants whatever, whether baptized or unbaptized, are with God in glory! I believe that in the decree of predestination to life, God has included all whom He has decreed to take away in infancy!


Brutus :godisgood: