Can we discuss Kenosis?

[DHK]

you make me post the same again and ahain and keep on posting one and two and three times that Jesus is God. You make me post it so many times and continue to make me post it again and again.

Do post again your post.

This is the one I was referring to. Remember, the first part (not shown here) already deals with the Greek, the words kenosis, etc.

The essential idea is that of bringing to emptiness, vanity, or nothingness; and, hence, it is applied to a case where one lays aside his rank and dignity, and becomes in respect to that as nothing; that is, he assumes a more humble rank and station. In regard to its meaning here, we may remark:


(1) that it cannot mean that he literally divested himself of his divine nature and perfections, for that was impossible. He could not cease to be omnipotent, and omnipresent, and most holy, and true, and good.


(2) it is conceivable that he might have laid aside, for a time, the symbols or the manifestation of his glory, or that the outward expressions of his majesty in heaven might have been withdrawn. It is conceivable for a divine being to intermit the exercise of his almighty power, since it cannot be supposed that God is always exerting his power to the utmost. And in like manner there might be for a time a laying aside or intermitting of these manifestations or symbols, which were expressive of the divine glory and perfections. Yet,


(3) this supposes no change in the divine nature, or in the essential glory of the divine perfections. When the sun is obscured by a cloud, or in an eclipse, there is no real change of its glory, nor are his beams extinguished, nor is the sun himself in any measure changed. His luster is only for a time obscured. So it might have been in regard to the manifestation of the glory of the Son of God. Of course there is much in regard to this which is obscure, but the language of the apostle undoubtedly implies more than that he took an humble place, or that he demeaned himself in an humble manner. In regard to the actual change respecting his manifestations in heaven, or the withdrawing of the symbols of his glory there, the Scriptures are nearly silent, and conjecture is useless - perhaps improper. The language before us fairly implies that he laid aside that which was expressive of his being divine - that glory which is involved in the phrase “being in the form of God” - and took upon himself another form and manifestation in the condition of a servant.

 

[Goinheix]

I skipped to the end after reading 3 or 4 notes.

So, my apologies if this has already been offered.

He emptied Himself of self and His own will, He took His commands directly from the Father.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.​

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.​

Secondly, He emptied Himself of His deific glory.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.​

HankD

If you are correct, then Jesus had all divine atributes. In that case, it will be easy for you to demostrate some of the many divine atributes Jesus had.

If you can not found Jesus having any divine atribiute, then you are wrong.

Simple like that.

 

[Goinheix]

The essential idea is that of bringing to emptiness, vanity, or nothingness; and, hence, it is applied to a case where one lays aside his rank and dignity, and becomes in respect to that as nothing; that is, he assumes a more humble rank and station. In regard to its meaning here, we may remark:


That is OK. Kenosis is bringing to emptiness, nothingness. If Jesus did kenosis of being red, then he was no red at all. If Jesus did kenosis of being hot, then he was absolutely freezing. If Jesus did kenosis of being rich, then he was totally poor with not one cent.

The question is what did Jesus kenosis of?

 

[jbh28]

1 To be God doesnt mean to have divine atributes

Yes it does. To be human means you have human attributes. Your statement is totally illogical and unbiblical.

2 In the Gospels it is clear - and have been proved - Jesus dont have any divine atribute.

Well, I guess you are just a plain heretic then and a liar. Here they are again just so everyone can see it.

A. Christ has SELF-EXISTENT life.

John 1:4 "In Him was life"
John 14:6 "I am the Life"
Acts 3:15 "the Prince (Author) of life"

B. Christ is ETERNAL.

Isaiah 9:6 "the everlasting Father" (or "the Father of eternity")
Micah 5:2 "whose goings forth have been of old, from everlasting"
Compare John 8:35; John 8:58; 1 John 1:2; 1 John 5:11.

C. Christ is UNCHANGEABLE.

Hebrews 1:10-12 "but thou art the same"
Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today and forever"

D. Christ is OMNIPRESENT.

See Matthew 28:20

E. Christ is OMNISCIENT.

See John 2:24-25 (compare Jeremiah 17:9-10);
John 6:64; 16:30; Colossians 2:3.
Examples:
Matthew 17:24-27
Luke 5:22
John 1:48
John 4:16-19
John 21:6

F. Christ is OMNIPOTENT.

See John 5:19
Philippians 3:20-21
Revelation 1:8 with Revelation 22:12-13 for identification.
Examples: Luke 4:39; Matthew 8:26-27; Mark 5:12-13; Luke 7:14-15; John 2:19-22

G. Christ is PERFECT.

(the term "perfect" as used in Scripture generally means "complete, nothing lacking")
See Colossians 1:19
Colossians 2:9-10

H. Christ is INFINITE.

See John 10:28
Ephesians 3:8
Colossians 2:3

I. Christ is INCOMPREHENSIBLE.

See Matthew 11:27
Ephesians 3:8
Ephesians 3:19

J. Christ is HOLY.

See Luke 1:35
Acts 3:14

K. Christ is TRUE.

See John 14:6
Revelation 3:7

L. Christ is LOVE.

See John 13:1
Romans 8:35-39
Ephesians 3:19
1 John 3:16 ASV

M. Christ is RIGHTEOUS.

See 2 Timothy 4:8
1 John 2:1

N. Christ is FAITHFUL.

See Revelation 3:14
Revelation 19:11

O. Christ is MERCIFUL.

See Jude 21
James 5:11 with 5:8 for identification

CONCLUSION – ATTRIBUTES

John 16:15 – "All things that the Father hath are mine" (every attribute that belongs to the Father belongs to Christ)

John 17:6 – Jesus prayed, "I have manifested Thy Name" (the "Name" of God as used in Scripture refers to God's character, that is, all that God is. Hence Jesus is saying, "I have shown what kind of a God You are. I have put Your Character on display.")

The Bible clearly teaches that in Christ all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form (see COLOSSIANS 2:9). LINK HERE>>>

 

[Goinheix]

(1) that it cannot mean that he literally divested himself of his divine nature and perfections, for that was impossible. He could not cease to be omnipotent, and omnipresent, and most holy, and true, and good.

It is correct that Christ cannot desvist himself of his divine nature and perfection. Jesus continues to be God.

It is not correct that Christ could not cease to be omnipotent, and omnipresent. To be omnipotent and omnipresent is not his nature but his atributes. In fact, it was many things that Jesus cloud not do, meaning that Jesus was not omnipotent. In fact Jesus always was in an specific place. Definatly Jesus was not omnipresent.

 

[DHK]

No. He did empty of his divine atributes. In fact, in the Gospels we dont see any one of all divine atributes. This is getting anoying. You say this, I say that, and you insist on this and I replay that, the you insist on this and i insist on that.

In the Gospels there is not one single divine atribute in Jesus. That is a fcat that can not be denyed and will not be refuted.

30 I and my Father are one.
--A claim to being God; to having divine attributes.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
--They began to stone him because he claimed to be God having divine attributes.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
--The "good works" that Jesus is referring to are the miracles that he performs; the miracles that only he can do and no one else can perform. The Jews were envious of these miracles, and Jesus asks them for which of these "miracles" are you going to stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
--The Jews understood what Jesus meant in verse 30. They knew that he claimed to be God having divine attributes. So they accused him of blasphemy. Look at the words: thou, being a man, makest thyself God. That was their accusation. It was true. But they did not want to believe it.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
--Jesus uses sarcasm. He refers to a Scripture in the Psalms and quotes it. The verse refers to judges in the OT that were often referred to as gods, just as we in our culture refer to a judge as "My lord." If they would call other men gods, why would it be a problem to call Christ God, when both his words and his miracles testify to the fact that he really is God.

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
--Now Christ questions them of their accusation of blasphemy in light of the Scripture just quoted.

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
--He refers to His miracles, the miracles that God the Father gave Him to do, and they have not believed him.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (John 10:30-38)
--Now he says: If you do not believe my words, then believe me because of my miracles. He gives a warning. Know and believe that the Father is in me and I am in Him. That is a claim to deity, to being God with all of his divine attributes.

 

[Goinheix]

(2) it is conceivable that he might have laid aside, for a time, the symbols or the manifestation of his glory, or that the outward expressions of his majesty in heaven might have been withdrawn. It is conceivable for a divine being to intermit the exercise of his almighty power, since it cannot be supposed that God is always exerting his power to the utmost. And in like manner there might be for a time a laying aside or intermitting of these manifestations or symbols, which were expressive of the divine glory and perfections. Yet,

Yes it is conceivible that Jesus did laid aside some of his divine atributes for some time. It is not conceivible that he did it with all his atributes and for all the time. It is not conceivible that in four Gospels preaching a Jesus God, did not includem not even a single demostration of at least one of the many divine atributes of Jesus.

More conceivible is to accept that Jesus did not have any divine atribute. If we dont think this way, then it will be possible to say that Moses, Abraham and many others did have divine atributes and decides to laid it aside.

 

[Goinheix]

(3) this supposes no change in the divine nature, or in the essential glory of the divine perfections. When the sun is obscured by a cloud, or in an eclipse, there is no real change of its glory, nor are his beams extinguished, nor is the sun himself in any measure changed. His luster is only for a time obscured. So it might have been in regard to the manifestation of the glory of the Son of God.

The above supposed no change in the divine atributes; but I have proved that the above is wrong.

The Sun can loose its light and temperature. Astronomers have messure how many millons years will take for the Sun cold down. But despite becoming a cold and obscure body it will continue to be the Sun. The heat and light of the Sun are its atributes, and despite loosing its stributes it will continue to be the Sun. God the Son without atributes continues to be God. Only that contrary to the Sun he did recieve the full glory.

 

[Iconoclast]

you shall provide verses saying that i am wrong and quit calling me things.
you are reported again.

Do you remember this verse;

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

How do you think he knew who satan was?

 

[Goinheix]

So it might have been in regard to the manifestation of the glory of the Son of God. Of course there is much in regard to this which is obscure, but the language of the apostle undoubtedly implies more than that he took an humble place, or that he demeaned himself in an humble manner. In regard to the actual change respecting his manifestations in heaven, or the withdrawing of the symbols of his glory there, the Scriptures are nearly silent, and conjecture is useless - perhaps improper. The language before us fairly implies that he laid aside that which was expressive of his being divine - that glory which is involved in the phrase “being in the form of God” - and took upon himself another form and manifestation in the condition of a servant.

The lenguage of the apostle implies that Christ did empty of being equal to God. Becoming humble is not emptying in nothing. In fact, the hubleing comes later, after the emptying. Furst the emptying, and then the humbling in addition.

Jesus did empty of his divine atributes, and also humbled into a servant.

 

[Goinheix]

Yes it does. To be human means you have human attributes. Your statement is totally illogical and unbiblical.
.

Yes, no, yes no, yes no yes no yes no. For how long will you repeat the same and I will replay the same?

The list of atributes is something prepared by men. God is eternal. That is in the Bible. God is omnipresent. That is in the Bible. God is allmighty. That is in the Bible. We, humans, call them atributes. Is it a correct name? Are those fact atributes of God? If the word atribute implies that anything without the atributes is something else...then the word "atributes" is a bad choise.

If God ceases to be God for not having an atribute; then we shall not call atributes to the fact of God being eternal, omnipresent and allmighty. In that case, God is allmighty and to be allmighty is npot a divine atribute. Being allmighty is something else. Because if God ceases to be allmigtty he continues to be God.

I think will be better to quit saying "atribute" where the Bible didnt say "atribute".

 

[Don]

Goinheix - one of the arguments you've presented is that Jesus didn't know certain things. One of the examples you used was, the woman who touched His garment, where he asked, "who touched me?"

First, let's look at your statement that Jesus is God. We agree on this statement. So let's look at a time when God didn't know something:
Genesis 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

Now, if God has all divine attributes, which you've basically stated, then we can agree that God did know where Adam was, and was basically pointing out the uselessness of Adam trying to hide from Him.

Thus, we have precedence. God had before exemplified that He will ask "who" or "where"; knowing His divine attributes, we know that this is not a case of Him not actually knowing.

Now, in the case of the woman who touched Jesus, there's nothing that indicates that Jesus didn't actually know who touched him; in fact, Mark 5:32 says He looked around for her that had done this thing.

Thus, those that hold to Jesus having the divine attributes, but being God in human form, have scriptural precedence to show that Jesus was not ignorant of these things, but used them to further show His glory.

Further, Jesus often showed knowledge that He shouldn't have had, such as with the woman at the well (knowing that she had many husbands). Thus, His "omniscience" is exemplified.

Your question: What did Jesus empty Himself of? Philippians 2:7 answers that: He made Himself "of no reputation" (kenoo; laid aside equality with or the form of God). This doesn't say that He emptied Himself of divine attributes; it says He laid aside the form of God...or, in the case that you're presenting, He laid aside equality with God. If you think carefully about the second part of that (laying aside equality), that still doesn't imply that He gave up all divine attributes.

In fact, look at Philippian 2:8 for further clarification: He was found in fashion as a man, and He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death.

None of these imply a "lessening" or "total absence" of divine attributes, merely a changing of form for a purpose.

 

[Goinheix]

Yes it does. To be human means you have human attributes. Your statement is totally illogical and unbiblical.


Well, I guess you are just a plain heretic then and a liar. Here they are again just so everyone can see it.

You have call me heretic so many times that now is when i will recieve a punishment for saying the same. Heresy is what you are saying. Saying that Jesus did not experienced kenosis is heresy. Saying that Jesus has divine atributes is heresy. Before all of you, including your teachers, nobody has teached that heresy.

The heresy of Jesus with divine atributes is not in the baptist statement of faith; it is not in any creed.

All the verses quoted refers to Christ before and after the minitery on Earth. no one refers to Jesus while he did keniosis himself.

 

[Goinheix]

30 I and my Father are one.
--A claim to being God; to having divine attributes.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
--They began to stone him because he claimed to be God having divine attributes.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
--The "good works" that Jesus is referring to are the miracles that he performs; the miracles that only he can do and no one else can perform. The Jews were envious of these miracles, and Jesus asks them for which of these "miracles" are you going to stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
--The Jews understood what Jesus meant in verse 30. They knew that he claimed to be God having divine attributes. So they accused him of blasphemy. Look at the words: thou, being a man, makest thyself God. That was their accusation. It was true. But they did not want to believe it.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
--Jesus uses sarcasm. He refers to a Scripture in the Psalms and quotes it. The verse refers to judges in the OT that were often referred to as gods, just as we in our culture refer to a judge as "My lord." If they would call other men gods, why would it be a problem to call Christ God, when both his words and his miracles testify to the fact that he really is God.

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
--Now Christ questions them of their accusation of blasphemy in light of the Scripture just quoted.

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
--He refers to His miracles, the miracles that God the Father gave Him to do, and they have not believed him.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (John 10:30-38)
--Now he says: If you do not believe my words, then believe me because of my miracles. He gives a warning. Know and believe that the Father is in me and I am in Him. That is a claim to deity, to being God with all of his divine attributes.

Jesus is God. We did agree on that from the very begining.
Do you have any verse saying that Jesus had any divine atribute? No, you dont.

 

[Goinheix]

Do you remember this verse;


How do you think he knew who satan was?

How do YOU think he knew who satan was? Because I dont see how it proves of Jesus having any divine atribute.

 

[DHK]

Jesus is God. We did agree on that from the very begining.
Do you have any verse saying that Jesus had any divine atribute? No, you dont.

How is Jesus God?
Is Jesus Ganesh? (the Hindu elephant god)?
Why or why not?
Every God has their own divine attributes
If Christ is God He will have divine attributes that will tell him apart from Ganesh. What are they?

 

[jbh28]

Yes, no, yes no, yes no yes no yes no. For how long will you repeat the same and I will replay the same?

You are the one that is being illogical. You claim Jesus was God yet doesn't have any of God's attributes(which is what makes up a person).

The list of atributes is something prepared by men. God is eternal. That is in the Bible. God is omnipresent. That is in the Bible. God is allmighty. That is in the Bible. We, humans, call them atributes. Is it a correct name? Are those fact atributes of God? If the word atribute implies that anything without the atributes is something else...then the word "atributes" is a bad choise.

Jesus is all of those.

If God ceases to be God for not having an atribute; then we shall not call atributes to the fact of God being eternal, omnipresent and allmighty. In that case, God is allmighty and to be allmighty is npot a divine atribute. Being allmighty is something else. Because if God ceases to be allmigtty he continues to be God.

I think will be better to quit saying "atribute" where the Bible didnt say "atribute".

heretics don't tell me which terms to use or not use.

 

[jbh28]

You have call me heretic so many times that now is when i will recieve a punishment for saying the same.

And I'll do it every post.

Heresy is what you are saying. Saying that Jesus did not experienced kenosis is heresy. Saying that Jesus has divine atributes is heresy. Before all of you, including your teachers, nobody has teached that heresy.

I'm not teaching heresy.

The heresy of Jesus with divine atributes is not in the baptist statement of faith; it is not in any creed.

All the verses quoted refers to Christ before and after the minitery on Earth. no one refers to Jesus while he did keniosis himself.

you have denied the deity of Christ. Go to the non baptist section heretic.

 

[Goinheix]

Goinheix - one of the arguments you've presented is that Jesus didn't know certain things. One of the examples you used was, the woman who touched His garment, where he asked, "who touched me?"

First, let's look at your statement that Jesus is God. We agree on this statement. So let's look at a time when God didn't know something:
Genesis 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

Now, if God has all divine attributes, which you've basically stated, then we can agree that God did know where Adam was, and was basically pointing out the uselessness of Adam trying to hide from Him.

Thus, we have precedence. God had before exemplified that He will ask "who" or "where"; knowing His divine attributes, we know that this is not a case of Him not actually knowing.

Now, in the case of the woman who touched Jesus, there's nothing that indicates that Jesus didn't actually know who touched him; in fact, Mark 5:32 says He looked around for her that had done this thing.

Thus, those that hold to Jesus having the divine attributes, but being God in human form, have scriptural precedence to show that Jesus was not ignorant of these things, but used them to further show His glory.

Further, Jesus often showed knowledge that He shouldn't have had, such as with the woman at the well (knowing that she had many husbands). Thus, His "omniscience" is exemplified.

.

Mark have two options, to use "him" or to use "her". Mark knew it was a woman. He knew that years after the fact. Mark choose "her" but did not men that Jesus knew that it was a woman.

Even if Jesus knew it was a woman; Jesus didnt know who in particular. Jesus is looking around trying to found out.

If Jesus knew exactly who did touch him; even in that case Jesus didnt know where she was hiding in the multitude. Jesus is looking around because he dont know where she is; or who she is; or who it was.

Also I agree that many times Jesus did formulate questions not because he didnt know. It is difficult to figure out for sure the meaning of Jesus questions. But there is times when Jesus is informed without formulating any question. Jesus was informed of the arrest of jhon and did take a decicion after that news. Jesus was informed of the dead of Lazarus.

The most demostrative sign of Jesus not knowing something is when he refuses to drink after testing (at the cross). Jesus didnt know what it was until he test it.

 

[Goinheix]

How is Jesus God?
Is Jesus Ganesh? (the Hindu elephant god)?
Why or why not?
Every God has their own divine attributes
If Christ is God He will have divine attributes that will tell him apart from Ganesh. What are they?

Good point. We can say wich God Jesus was afteer knowing his divine atributes. If we found that Jesus had the atributes of Ganesh, then we must conclude that Jesus was Gadesh. The key point is to spot and identify the divine atributes of God and compare them to different Gods.

Please list the divine atributes that Jesus had.