Can we discuss Kenosis?

[Goinheix]

by Skañdelon:
Only Baptists are permitted to post in this forum, that is why your post was moved. Thank you.

by Tom Butler
I owe you a public apology. I confused you with SakranMM, and sent a note to one of the moderators about it. Your profile says you are Baptist. I just made a mistake. Please accept my apology. This time I will not lay it off to my advanced age, although it does provide a handy excuse.


Can we discus Kenosis?

 

[Skandelon]

Apologies from me as well, I should have double checked with you before moving the post.

 

[Goinheix]

It is a common statement: "Jesus was fully God and fully man". That statement or concept is not at all in the Bible. The incarnation of God Son in Jesus is a mistery that have catch christians from the early centuries until today. It is something that make wonder new christians and old theologist. The incarnation is an issue that made possible the origin of many heresies.

Today, we take for godd doctrine the heresy that did survive over all the rest. How we know is an heresy? We dont know; but it is very unprobable that while all others were wrong, our be right. Most probably our position on incarnation had some wrong deitails ot missunderstundings.

I have prepared the harmony of the Gospels, and what I have learn is that Jesus of Nazaret did not have any divine atributes at all. immediatelly, when I say that, christians think I am a Witness. Not, I am not. Jesus was God, but according to Philipians, God the Son did emptied out all of his divine atributes (kenosis) in order to enter the world as man.

That idea is totally ofensive for the most of christians, and insist in declare my position as this and that heresy. Sorry, but it is the Gospels and is Paul.

The replay is the hypostasis. The answer is that God Son became human by hypostasis. And the biblical support is in Hebrew. But the same Bible, the same NT and probably the same author is talking about kenosis. Which one is correct. I shall say that both. But many christians make huge efforts to denay the kenosis and make it means something totally different.

This thread is to disscuss kenosis and hypostasis. Was Jesus fully God? Was Jesus fully man?

 

[Goinheix]

I am not saying that Jesus were not God. Here is where all the missunderstanding commences. We know that God is omnipresent. omniscient and all mighty...and many more things. We say that those are His atributes and can not understand of a god not being omnipresent, omnioscient and allmighty. My point is that God is God because he is God; not because He is omnipresent, omniscient and allmighty. For God to be God it is more than having divine atributes. In the same way, God can remain being God despete of emptying Himself of the divine atributes. Because - i repeat - God is not God because of His atributes; and He is God despite of having or not having those atributes.

Paul teached to the Philipians that God the Son did give up on keeping the divine atributes. Paul is saying that God the Son enter the world without the atributes of omniscience, omnipresence and allmighty. But despite God the Son quit being omniscient, and omipresent and allmughty, He never quit being Gog.

Paul and all the Apostles teached that Jesus of Nazaret was no other than God the Son. But no one of them teaches that Jesus of Nazaret was omnipresent, omniscient or allmighty. All the contrary; the evangelists showed a Jesus clearly not being omnipresent, omniscient nor allmighty. And Paul teaches that Jesus - that is God the Son - did enmptyed oiut of all those atributes while continue to be God all the time.

 

[Goinheix]

Kenosis
Christ Jesus who in form of God existed not something to seize hold regard the be equality to God but himself emptied form of bondman having taken in likeness of men having become and form find as men he lowered himself having become obedient point death of death even from cross.

Hypostasis
Who being radiance of glory and exact image of nature of him upholds and the things by the word of power of him purification of sins having made he sat down on right hand of majesty on high

Those two verses are the Biblical support for both theological concepts: kenosis and hypostasis. The hypostasis enfasizes that Jesus was the exact image of God; and is not the only verse pointing in that direction, but the only one using the word hypostasis. In the other hand, kenosis emfasizes that Jesus was empty of all divine atrributes; and is not the only text pointing in that direction, but the only using the word kenosis.

Are hypostasis and kenosis contradictories? Can be God continue to be God without the divine atributes? Could Jesus be the eaxct image of God while not having God`s atributes?

My point is that God is God for being God. He is "I am". God is not God because of his divine atributes. God has divine atributes because He is God. But He continues to be God despite or besides His divine atributes.

Jesus is/was God, and is/was (was means during the years on earth) God despite or besides the divine atributes. Jesus was the exact image of God since God is not the divine atributes but Got itself (Himself).

 

[Goinheix]

We can not denay kenosis, we can not make a christology ignoring it or pretendidng is not writen in the NT. If God the Son was God before kenosis and he continues to be God after kenosis; then we have to figure out what kenosis means.

Kenosis do not mean at all to seace to be God. Kenosis is not at all quiting or resigning to the condition of being God. If we have to understand the real meaning of kenosis then we have to acceot that Jesus was God in all the significance of being God.

There is only one way of being God...being 100% God. There is not such a thing as being half a God, or almost God, or barely God. Being God means to be God in all the meaning of it. Jesus was (during in earth) and is God in not other way that being totally, and fully God.

But by kenosis he did emptied out, did give up, did resign to something that did not lessen his condition of being God. Whatever he did emptied out of, he continues to be God. How much of a God? Fully God? As In say: there is only one way to be God and declaring to be fully God is redundant and unnecesary. After kenosis, after emtiing out Jesus was totaly and absolutely God. His divine condition can be resume in: Jesus is/was God; making unnecesary any "fully" added.

What did God the Son emptied out for entering the world in flesh as Jesus? Because he did emtied of something. Actually the term kenosis inplies a total emtyiness. What did God the Son emtied himself totaly and still continues to be God?

In my opinion, God the Son did emtied of all divine atributes. God the Son emptied of being - for example - omniscient. In that case, Jesus was not onmiscient.

What is so offensive? It is that for the most of the christianas can not understand that beinmg God and being omniscient are not the same thing, but two different things. It is possible to God to give up on his omniscience without being any less God. This is the focus of our discussion.

We - all you and me - are nos diagreen on Jesus being God. Fully God if you prefer. We disagree in that Jesus not being omniscient signifies him being less than full God. In my opinion, Jesus not being omniscient still is fully God; because God is not his atributes but God is God despite and besides of his atributes.

Now the big question: was Jesus omniscient?
If Jesus was in fact omniscient, then my opinion is in problems.
If Jesus was in fact not omniscient, then my opinion is in solid ground.

If I am right, not being omniscient has nothing against beinmg God...fully God.

 

[Goinheix]

We can understand very easely the doctrine of kenosis. Paul did explained to the Philipians in very few words and they did understood it.

God the Son did emtied himself of all divine atributes and yet continues to be God. Because being or not being God is not conected to the divine atributes.

In few words, Jesus did not have any of the divine atributes. He was not omnipotent, omniscient or had any other supernatural hability, capacity or power that made him any higher that any other man. He did live as man with not any privilege or help. And did it with no sin.

Probably we can not understand some doctrines, but those we understand we have to keep and teach.

 

[Iconoclast]

We can understand very easely the doctrine of kenosis. Paul did explained to the Philipians in very few words and they did understood it.

God the Son did emtied himself of all divine atributes and yet continues to be God. Because being or not being God is not conected to the divine atributes.

In few words, Jesus did not have any of the divine atributes. He was not omnipotent, omniscient or had any other supernatural hability, capacity or power that made him any higher that any other man. He did live as man with not any privilege or help. And did it with no sin.

Probably we can not understand some doctrines, but those we understand we have to keep and teach.

This is error here,and in the other thread...which I just replied to.

 

[Goinheix]

This is error here,and in the other thread...which I just replied to.

I am not responsible for the situation. It was not me who decides to have the same issue in two different threads.

What exactly is the error?

Can you share with us at least one single divine atribute in Jesus. If you can point in the Gospels at least one of all divine atributes I will give you the reason. This is the request: one single divine atribute of Jesus.

 

[Iconoclast]

I am not responsible for the situation. It was not me who decides to have the same issue in two different threads.

What exactly is the error?

Philippians 2: “He emptied Himself.” The word for “emptied” is ekenwsen “emptied/ deprived/ evacuated/ divested Himself of His prerogatives and privileges” (Pershbacher). He “laid aside” his “appearance of divinity” and took the form of a slave (Arndt&Gingrich). The KJV takes a rare paraphrastic excursion from its customary literalness to say he “made Himself of no reputation.” “The emphatic position of eauton points to the humiliation of our Lord as voluntary, self-imposed" (Lightfoot). Earle reminds us that this emptying was not of divinity, but of heavenly glory (John 17:5).

Because being or not being God is not conected to the divine atributes.

Yes...they are connected,
Louis Berkhof Systematic Theology “no change is possible in God, since a change is either for better or for worse. But in God, as the absolute Perfection, improvement and deterioration are both equally impossible… The divine immutability should not be understood as implying immobility, as if there were no movement in God… God is always in action… There is change round about Him, change in the relations of men to Him, but there is no change in His Being, His attributes, His purpose, His motives of action, or His promises… The incarnation brought no change in the Being or perfections of God, nor in His purpose, for it was His eternal good pleasure to send the Son of His love into the world…”

 

[InTheLight]

I am not responsible for the situation. It was not me who decides to have the same issue in two different threads.

What exactly is the error?

[Jesus]was not omnipotent, omniscient or had any other supernatural hability, capacity or power that made him any higher that any other man.

No supernatural ability?
John 11:43 Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” 44 And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”

Not omnisicient?
John 4:47 ...there was a certain nobleman whose son was sick at Capernaum. 47 When he heard that Jesus had come out of Judea into Galilee, he went to Him and implored Him to come down and heal his son, for he was at the point of death. 48 Then Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe.”
49 The nobleman said to Him, “Sir, come down before my child dies!”
50 Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your son lives.” So the man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him, and he went his way. 51 And as he was now going down, his servants met him and told him, saying, “Your son lives!”
52 Then he inquired of them the hour when he got better. And they said to him, “Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him.” 53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour in which Jesus said to him, “Your son lives.”


Not omnipotent?
John 6:9 So when they had rowed about three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea and drawing near the boat; and they were afraid. 20 But He said to them, “It is I; do not be afraid.” 21 Then they willingly received Him into the boat, and immediately the boat was at the land where they were going.

 

[Goinheix]

No supernatural ability?
John 11:43 Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” 44 And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”

Probably I have to define "supernatural ability". What I mean is that Jesus had not any ability, capacity or power that a man cant have. The abilities, capacities and power of Jesus was not biger or greater of that of a present christian or an ancient prophet.

In fact, Jesus were not the first man that with God power did resurrect - bring back to life - a dead person. Jesus resurrecting Lazarus did not show any power above of the power available for men of God.

 

[Goinheix]

Not omnisicient?
John 4:47 ...there was a certain nobleman whose son was sick at Capernaum. 47 When he heard that Jesus had come out of Judea into Galilee, he went to Him and implored Him to come down and heal his son, for he was at the point of death. 48 Then Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe.”
49 The nobleman said to Him, “Sir, come down before my child dies!”
50 Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your son lives.” So the man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him, and he went his way. 51 And as he was now going down, his servants met him and told him, saying, “Your son lives!”
52 Then he inquired of them the hour when he got better. And they said to him, “Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him.” 53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour in which Jesus said to him, “Your son lives.”

Can you more specific where do you see a prove of his omniscience.
Jesus healed a person and knew what he did. Healing is more amuzing than knowing what he did.

 

[Amy.G]

In fact, Jesus were not the first man that with God power did resurrect - bring back to life - a dead person. Jesus resurrecting Lazarus did not show any power above of the power available for men of God.

Article on miracles of Jesus


From the link:

Following is a partial list of some of the miracles of Jesus. It is these miracles that attest to who Jesus is because His remarkable deeds confirm His incredible claim to be God in flesh, the only way to salvation.

Jesus was born of a virgin (Matt. 1:25
Jesus changed water into wine (John 2:6-10).
Jesus caused the disciples to catch a large load of fish (Luke 5:4-6).
Jesus cast out demons (Matt. 8:28-32; 15:22-28).
Jesus healed lepers (Matt. 8:3; Luke 17:14).
Jesus healed diseases (Matt. 4:23,24; Luke 6:17-19)
Jesus healed the paralytic (Mark 2:3-12).
Jesus raised the dead (Matt. 9:25; John 11:43-44).
Jesus restored sight to the blind (Matt. 9:27-30; John 9:1-7).
Jesus cured deafness (Mark 7:32-35).
Jesus fed the multitude (Matt. 14:15-21; Matt. 15:32-38).
Jesus walked on water (Matt. 14:25-27).
Jesus healed the sick (Matt. 8:5-13; 9:22).
Jesus forgave sins (Mark 2:5).
Jesus calmed a storm with a command (Matt. 8:22-27; Mark 4:39).
Jesus was transfigured (Matt. 17:1-8).
Jesus rose from the dead (Luke 24:39; John 20:27).
Jesus appeared to disciples after resurrection (John 20:19).
Jesus ascended into heaven (Acts 1:9).

Are you going to tell us that "any" man can do these things? Really?

 

[Goinheix]

Not omnipotent?
John 6:9 So when they had rowed about three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea and drawing near the boat; and they were afraid. 20 But He said to them, “It is I; do not be afraid.” 21 Then they willingly received Him into the boat, and immediately the boat was at the land where they were going.

If Jesus did actually walked over the surface of the water - he didnt - it will be a miracle similar of that of Eliseo (2 Kings 6:5-7)

 

[Goinheix]

Yes...they are connected,
Louis Berkhof Systematic Theology “no change is possible in God, since a change is either for better or for worse. But in God, as the absolute Perfection, improvement and deterioration are both equally impossible… The divine immutability should not be understood as implying immobility, as if there were no movement in God… God is always in action… There is change round about Him, change in the relations of men to Him, but there is no change in His Being, His attributes, His purpose, His motives of action, or His promises… The incarnation brought no change in the Being or perfections of God, nor in His purpose, for it was His eternal good pleasure to send the Son of His love into the world…”

Then Berkhof is right and Paul is wrong? How do Berkhof explain Pauls doctrine of kenosis?

 

[Amy.G]

If Jesus did actually walked over the surface of the water - he didnt - it will be a miracle similar of that of Eliseo (2 Kings 6:5-7)

"If"? You don't believe the scriptures?

Who walked on water in 2 Kings? It was an axehead, not a person walking.

 

[Goinheix]

Article on miracles of Jesus


From the link:

Are you going to tell us that "any" man can do these things? Really?

Jesus himself is saying that any christian can do these things and greaters. Is Jesus saying that, not me.

 

[Don]

Um...Go, you're incorrect.

2 Kings 6 tells a story of the man of God throwing in a stick, and the iron axe head subsequently floated. Nothing about a man walking on water.

Second, you state that Jesus didn't walk on the surface of the water; scripture clearly says He walked on the sea. If He didn't walk on the sea, what did He do?

 

[Amy.G]

Jesus himself is saying that any christian can do these things and greaters. Is Jesus saying that, not me.

Please name one Christian that has raised someone from the dead.