can we loose salvation ......

[BobRyan]

#1. The conditional logic shown in scripture -- in this post

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1195081&postcount=253

#2. The "Forgiveness revoked" statement Christ makes in Matt 18.

#3. The clear reference to this in Romans 11.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[charles_creech78]

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven and of which I Paul was made a minister. What was the reason of all this?Look at the red. This was the reason for all of it. (unbelief)

 

[BobRyan]

Let's take a close look at what you posted in Romans 11 --

Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

God never 'warns the lost about failure to persevere in being lost".

in the Romans 11 text it is very clear that salvation is being gained and lost in this warning to the saints.

#1. Who is the one in this text being told to fear?
#2. Who is the one being told in this text that they ARE STANDING but only by faith?
#3. who are those who are "cut off" so that you might be grafted in?
#4. Who are those that God is "Able to GRAFT in AGAIN" -- this is not a promise to return them AGAIN to being lost but AGAIN to be saved!


Romans 11 is specific about dealing with the lost-saved-lost scenario.

But are there OTHER scenarios for LOSt people as WELL as the saved - LOST kind? YES! there are the "never were saved" lost AS WELL.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[charles_creech78]

2th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

2th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto PERDITION; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.. Looks like them that believe once saved always saved are not of them that turn unto perdition but believe to the saving of there soul. Salvation the name I love which came by Christ the Lord above.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED[/b]."
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"


16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;
"THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

HP: Indeed you have found your proof texts in verses 16-18, and I will readily admit that on the surface they can be seen (if one is to ignore reason and even the verses right above that even you underline that states that a preacher is necessary to hear the good news) to indicate that every living human being has heard the gospel. That is indeed a novel idea that I believe is without any support from any notable commentator I have ever read and certainly a novel idea that flies in the face common sense and reason as well as the whole tenor of Scripture, even the verses just prior to these in 14&15 as I stated above.

What can be rightfully deduced from verses 16-18? One thing that I do not believe can by any fair interpretation imaginable is that the ‘they’ mentioned in this passage, that you hold up walking on all four legs to support the novel idea that every living man women and child has heard the good news of the gospel, is in any way a clear indication that all have had the opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel. At best the ‘they’ mentioned in this passage is speaking of the Jews that lived in Palestine and those within the reach of the Gentile nations surrounding it that had had the opportunity afforded them to hear the good news.

This text I believe should be read as to indicate that there was not a part of the promise land nor even possibly the remotest part of the Roman Empire of which the gospel of Christ crucified and risen again for the sins of the world was not heard at that time. That is a far cry from the unfounded assumption BR makes that every living human has had the gospel preached to them. That is beyond any and all scope of reason and is not found supported in the Word of God.

I would like to see DHK, for one, state clearly his position on this matter. I believe in all fairness he has alluded to the ‘possibility’ of believing as BR has indicated, but to my knowledge he has never clearly stated his support directly to it. This affords DHK a wonderful opportunity to clear the air once for all in a clear and precise manner. DHK, do you or do you not support the notion BR raises that every living human, in all times past or present, has in fact had the gospel presented to them?

 

[BobRyan]

Bob posted -
Let's take a close look at what you posted in Romans 11 --

Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

God never 'warns the lost about failure to persevere in being lost".

in the Romans 11 text it is very clear that salvation is being gained and lost in this warning to the saints.

#1. Who is the one in this text being told to fear?
#2. Who is the one being told in this text that they ARE STANDING but only by faith?
#3. who are those who are "cut off" so that you might be grafted in?
#4. Who are those that God is "Able to GRAFT in AGAIN" -- this is not a promise to return them AGAIN to being lost but AGAIN to be saved!

Hint: Paul has readers in all generatoins since the first century A.D.

2th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, .

It appears you are sidestepping the questions on the Romans 11 text that you posted.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

HP said
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim

HP: Can you establish by the text itself, apart from your presuppositions, that it is the ‘gospel’ that is being addressed and not simply knowledge of right and wrong and the existence of God?

Bob said
1. Note the words "saved" and "salvation" -- as connected to "the ONE and ONLY Gospel" known to Paul.
2. Notice the connection between "hearing" and "believing" -- as well as "believing and salvation" IN the text.

Or just look at what is highlighted and underlined.


Quote:

Rom 10
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, [b]you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. [/b]
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED[/b]."
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"


16 However, they did not all heed the good news[/b]; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;
"THEIR [b]VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

HP: Indeed you have found your proof texts in verses 16-18, and I will readily admit that on the surface they can be seen

At last - we agree on something on this topic.

HP

(if one is to ignore reason and even the verses right above that

I have posted a detailed review of Romans 10 time after time.

If you are now saying that you are willing to look "in detail" into those sections of Romans 10 that are "seen" (in your words) to refute your position - I am certainly willing to read what you find there.

But when faced with a contradiction in scripture to your own views -- if you simply respond with "I believe this can not possibly means what it appears to say" then you need to find some kind support within the realm of accepted exegesis of the text ITSELF no prior-bias included.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: I have posted a detailed review of Romans 10 time after time.

HP: I needed to bring up this issue with DHK as well. Just because one, in their own estimation, has given a detailed response or reviewed the issue, does not mean that in the estimation of another you have done anything other than to view something through your own bias or via your own strongly held presuppositions. That can be the case of anyone of us.

In an open debate forum, there is constant need to be as direct as one can posssibly be to the questioning of another even though they think they have answered it many times before. The clear possibility exists is that they might have in fact allowed their own bias to convince themselves they have covered the ground sufficiently, when in fact that may not be the case at all. Ones ‘detailed review’ may only satisfy their own biased mind, and in reality not be a meaningful or enlightened response to any other.

Take for instance your recent post which does nothing more than repeat your well known presupposition that all have received the ‘gospel.’ That is in no way supported by the text in Romans 10 or any other, is not the held beliefs of any notable commentator that I have read, and certainly is not supported by reason or experience of millions of missionaries. It also has not been a notion held and taught by the church that I am aware of. I see it as nothing more than a novel idea created to free yourself from the logical yet unjust implications of original sin.

 

[charles_creech78]

Hint: Paul has readers in all generatoins since the first century A.D.



It appears you are sidestepping the questions on the Romans 11 text that you posted.

in Christ,

Bob

Thats the best you can come up with.

 

[BobRyan]

um -- yes. You posted Romans 11, I asked a few specific questions about what you posted - and you have fled that chapter as if it was a huge mistake on your part to post it in the first place.

I am simply reminded - that Romans 11 still exists saying "HE is able to GRAFT THEM IN AGAIN if they do not CONTINUE in their unbelief", showing the VERY thing that the OSAS group claims "can not exist".

 

[BobRyan]

HP: I needed to bring up this issue with DHK as well. Just because one, in their own estimation, has given a detailed response or reviewed the issue, does not mean that in the estimation of another you have done anything other than to view something through your own bias or via your own strongly held presuppositions. That can be the case of anyone of us.

I do not deny that my detailed review of Romans 10 could possibly be in error - this is why I have invited you to take a turn at providing your version of a close and exegetically sound review of those parts that refer to what was heard, by whom and on what basis -- so we can compare.

HP

In an open debate forum, there is constant need to be as direct as one can posssibly be to the questioning of another even though they think they have answered it many times before. The clear possibility exists is that they might have in fact allowed their own bias to convince themselves they have covered the ground sufficiently, when in fact that may not be the case at all. Ones ‘detailed review’ may only satisfy their own biased mind, and in reality not be a meaningful or enlightened response to any other.

Agreed. I am not claiming infallability here.

HP
Take for instance your recent post which does nothing more than repeat your well known presupposition that all have received the ‘gospel.’ That is in no way supported by the text in Romans 10

Feel free to provide the quote from me and then show in your own detailed review of Romans 10 where the actual words I stated are in error.

I would welcome it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: Feel free to provide the quote from me and then show in your own detailed review of Romans 10 where the actual words I stated are in error.

I would welcome it.

HP: I believe there is no doubt that you hold Romans 10: 16-18 as evidence that God has granted to all men the gospel. We have covered this many times before, and with your intentioned use of font coloration, underling, and bold type, you indeed add the desired emphasis to the text. If that is not what you are trying to get across, say so. Here was the text given in classic BR style.

BR: 16 However, they did not all heed the good news[/b]; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;
"THEIR [b]VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

HP: I gave you my rendition of these verses in post #265. When you add emphasis as you consistently do with the Scriptures, along with other comments made in numerous other posts on many other topics, one does not have to wonder as to the meaning you have placed on the verses in question. If you do not believe that the verses you posted substantiate your novel ‘all have received the gospel’ notion, simply say so. If you feel that I have misrepresented your view in any manner, point it out for the list. I will do my best to clear up any misunderstandings.

 

[BobRyan]

Fine 265 it is -- but 265 is not exegesis of anything.

HP - post 265

HP: Indeed you have found your proof texts in verses 16-18, and I will readily admit that on the surface they can be seen

Here you simply admit that the review I have given is easy to see in the text. While that is fair statement about me - it is hard to see this as you going verse by verse and showing how the text itself is making your point.

(if one is to ignore reason and even the verses right above that even you underline that states that a preacher is necessary to hear the good news) to indicate that every living human being has heard the gospel. That is indeed a novel idea that I believe is without any support from any notable commentator I have ever read and certainly a novel idea that flies in the face common sense and reason as well as the whole tenor of Scripture, even the verses just prior to these in 14&15 as I stated above.

In the above statement you clearly "complain" about what you see as my view - without actually doing any exegesis at all of Romans 10 on your part.

What can be rightfully deduced from verses 16-18? One thing that I do not believe can by any fair interpretation imaginable is that the ‘they’ mentioned in this passage, that you hold up walking on all four legs to support the novel idea that every living man women and child has heard the good news of the gospel, is in any way a clear indication that all have had the opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel.

In the above quote - once again you exegete nothing -- all you do is clearly state what you do not want to find in the text.

At best the ‘they’ mentioned in this passage is speaking of the Jews that lived in Palestine and those within the reach of the Gentile nations surrounding it that had had the opportunity afforded them to hear the good news.

In the above once again we find no exegesis at all of what the text actually says. Only your statement of what you WISH you had found. A statement of "they had OPPORTUNITY but they did not actually HEAR" as if that language is found at aLL in the text.

This text I believe should be read as to indicate that there was not a part of the promise land nor even possibly the remotest part of the Roman Empire of which the gospel of Christ crucified and risen again for the sins of the world was not heard at that time.

That is a clear statement of what you wanted to find but you make no attempt at all to SHOW IN the text (exegesis) that the AUTHOR meant us to think he was speaking of "parts of land" that had heard the Gospel.

You simply state once again what you wish you had found there INSTEAD of what the text says.

That is a far cry from the unfounded assumption BR makes that every living human has had the gospel preached to them. That is beyond any and all scope of reason and is not found supported in the Word of God.

In the above you make no attempt to exegete -- but merely to contrast your opinion with my position.

Followed by another non-review of the text - which asks DHK for more detail on his POV.

I would like to see DHK, for one, state clearly his position on this matter. I believe in all fairness he has alluded to the ‘possibility’ of believing as BR has indicated, but to my knowledge he has never clearly stated his support directly to it. This affords DHK a wonderful opportunity to clear the air once for all in a clear and precise manner. DHK, do you or do you not support the notion BR raises that every living human, in all times past or present, has in fact had the gospel presented to them?

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 10

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”

Paul could not be more explicit in asking the very same question many ask today – HOW can they (in this case OT Jews) have been saved if they did not hear the “Good news” (Gospel).

Rom 10
16 However, they did not all heed the good news (Gospel); for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?”

In vs 16 Paul argues that Isaiah is preaching the “Good News”. Paul gives no hint at all here that “There are many good news gospels and the Jews got number 10276” – rather he simply uses the term “Good News” translated “Gospel” and applies it to the teaching of OT prophets such as Isaiah.

And so we find IN the text itself that Paul is explicit in his own reference here to the “good news” (Gospel). Not just “some kind of news”.

Romans 10
17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;

(Ps 19 is quoted here)

THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.”

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I would like to see DHK, for one, state clearly his position on this matter. I believe in all fairness he has alluded to the ‘possibility’ of believing as BR has indicated, but to my knowledge he has never clearly stated his support directly to it. This affords DHK a wonderful opportunity to clear the air once for all in a clear and precise manner. DHK, do you or do you not support the notion BR raises that every living human, in all times past or present, has in fact had the gospel presented to them?

 

[charles_creech78]

um -- yes. You posted Romans 11, I asked a few specific questions about what you posted - and you have fled that chapter as if it was a huge mistake on your part to post it in the first place.

I am simply reminded - that Romans 11 still exists saying "HE is able to GRAFT THEM IN AGAIN if they do not CONTINUE in their unbelief", showing the VERY thing that the OSAS group claims "can not exist".

No what you are saying you believe you can draw back. And what i am saying I believe to the saving of my soul. that is what OSAS means to me. If you fill you can lose God then that is your faith. I believe God can keep me. That is MY FAITH. Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, .Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. So brother work out your own salvation and leave ours alone.

 

[BobRyan]

I "feel" that Romans 11 is true (just exactly as you quoted it) even though the OSAS traditions of men need to reject it.

I "feel" that Matt 18 is true when it speaks to "forgiveness revoked" even though the OSAS traditions of men reject it.

I "Feel" that John 15:1-8 speaking of the vines IN CHRIST that are REMOVED from Christ and burned up -- is true even though the OSAS traditions of men need to reject it.

I "feel" that the Ezek 18 examples of salvation lost are true EVEN though the OSAS traditions of men need to reject it.

I also agree with you that the promises in scripture for "perseverance" are for the Christian and we do have the promise of God's power in our walk in Christ. As God says in 1Cor 10 "NO temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man and God is FAITHFUL who will not ALLOW you to be tempted BEYOND that which YOU are able". But man has free will and can choose to reject the abundantly available way-of-escape provided by God, as so often happens.

In the humorous "work out your own salvation and leave ours alone" comment - you miss the point entirely that this happens to be a "discussion board" where various points of view are "discussed". I do not "mess with your salvation" by simply admitting to what I find in scripture.

When the guys here who reject "Sola Scriptura" teachings found in Acts 17:11 and 2Tim 3:16 reject my acceptance of those text - I am not "messing with their salvation".

When the Calvinists who reject that "God so loved the WORLD" and claim that in fact God only "arbitrarily selects the FEW of MAtt 7 to so-LOVE" - see that I am agruing for the truth of John 3:16 "God so Loved the WORLD -- yes REALLY" - I am still not "messing with their salvation" because that can never happen by simply admitting to what we find in scripture.

Now I admit that there DOES exist a very tiny contingent on this board that WOULD issue something like a "you dirty rotten cultist you are not saved because you do not believe doctrine-xyz the way I do" kind of "proof" of their doctrinal position and ad hominem attack on someone who does not agree to their POV (in clear violation of the rules for posting herer). But I am not one of those.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[charles_creech78]

I "feel" that Romans 11 is true (just exactly as you quoted it) even though the OSAS traditions of men need to reject it.

I "feel" that Matt 18 is true when it speaks to "forgiveness revoked" even though the OSAS traditions of men reject it.

I "Feel" that John 15:1-8 speaking of the vines IN CHRIST that are REMOVED from Christ and burned up -- is true even though the OSAS traditions of men need to reject it.

I "feel" that the Ezek 18 examples of salvation lost are true EVEN though the OSAS traditions of men need to reject it.

I also agree with you that the promises in scripture for "perseverance" are for the Christian and we do have the promise of God's power in our walk in Christ. As God says in 1Cor 10 "NO temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man and God is FAITHFUL who will not ALLOW you to be tempted BEYOND that which YOU are able". But man has free will and can choose to reject the abundantly available way-of-escape provided by God, as so often happens.

In the humorous "work out your own salvation and leave ours alone" comment - you miss the point entirely that this happens to be a "discussion board" where various points of view are "discussed". I do not "mess with your salvation" by simply admitting to what I find in scripture.

When the guys here who reject "Sola Scriptura" teachings found in Acts 17:11 and 2Tim 3:16 reject my acceptance of those text - I am not "messing with their salvation".

When the Calvinists who reject that "God so loved the WORLD" and claim that in fact God only "arbitrarily selects the FEW of MAtt 7 to so-LOVE" - see that I am agruing for the truth of John 3:16 "God so Loved the WORLD -- yes REALLY" - I am still not "messing with their salvation" because that can never happen by simply admitting to what we find in scripture.

Now I admit that there DOES exist a very tiny contingent on this board that WOULD issue something like a "you dirty rotten cultist you are not saved because you do not believe doctrine-xyz the way I do" kind of "proof" of their doctrinal position and ad hominem attack on someone who does not agree to their POV (in clear violation of the rules for posting herer). But I am not one of those.

in Christ,

Bob

Well your saying it is a tradition to man believeing in OSAS. So I guess you are saying my church the old regular baptist are all going to hell. First of all we are not under the law which ye seem to not understand. The law is the bible and it is not talking to them that are not under the law. We are under Grace. Not under the law. If you move away from God it is because it is your own stedfast. It clearly says because unbelief they moved away.And it clearly stats they believed in vain. They believe the gospil in vain. Just because you don't believe in it does not mean it is wrong. I beleive in a God that is able to keep me and reserve me till the day of redemtion. Again this is apart of my salvation and stop? me about it. I am not under the law so preach to them that are under it. You really need to rightly devide the word of truth. You really need to think of what grace is and what being under the law means. For Jesus came not to call the rightess to repentance but the sinners. But go ye and keep yourself from doing them things. Keep yourself but remeber with out God YOU CAN DO NOTHING. Ya when did I do this to you? (hominem attack) If that is what you want to believe then believe it. Are you upset because I believe in the saving of my soul. Have you been rightess your hole Christain life? I am sorry you are right and everyone else is wrong. Go look it up and see who is under the law.

 

[Trotter]

Some one explain how man, who is mortal and finite, can undo what only God, who is immortal and infinite, can do in the first place? Is not the sacrifice of Christ not enough to secure salvation?

 

[charles_creech78]

I "feel" that Romans 11 is true (just exactly as you quoted it) even though the OSAS traditions of men need to reject it.

I "feel" that Matt 18 is true when it speaks to "forgiveness revoked" even though the OSAS traditions of men reject it.

I "Feel" that John 15:1-8 speaking of the vines IN CHRIST that are REMOVED from Christ and burned up -- is true even though the OSAS traditions of men need to reject it.

I "feel" that the Ezek 18 examples of salvation lost are true EVEN though the OSAS traditions of men need to reject it.

I also agree with you that the promises in scripture for "perseverance" are for the Christian and we do have the promise of God's power in our walk in Christ. As God says in 1Cor 10 "NO temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man and God is FAITHFUL who will not ALLOW you to be tempted BEYOND that which YOU are able". But man has free will and can choose to reject the abundantly available way-of-escape provided by God, as so often happens.

In the humorous "work out your own salvation and leave ours alone" comment - you miss the point entirely that this happens to be a "discussion board" where various points of view are "discussed". I do not "mess with your salvation" by simply admitting to what I find in scripture.

When the guys here who reject "Sola Scriptura" teachings found in Acts 17:11 and 2Tim 3:16 reject my acceptance of those text - I am not "messing with their salvation".

When the Calvinists who reject that "God so loved the WORLD" and claim that in fact God only "arbitrarily selects the FEW of MAtt 7 to so-LOVE" - see that I am agruing for the truth of John 3:16 "God so Loved the WORLD -- yes REALLY" - I am still not "messing with their salvation" because that can never happen by simply admitting to what we find in scripture.

Now I admit that there DOES exist a very tiny contingent on this board that WOULD issue something like a "you dirty rotten cultist you are not saved because you do not believe doctrine-xyz the way I do" kind of "proof" of their doctrinal position and ad hominem attack on someone who does not agree to their POV (in clear violation of the rules for posting herer). But I am not one of those.

in Christ,

Bob

Romans 11
Ro 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Ro 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Ro 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

Ro 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Ro 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Ro 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Ro 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Ro 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Ro 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them:

Ro 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Ro 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Ro 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Ro 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Ro 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Ro 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Ro 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree (Gentiles), wert grafted in among them.(Israel)[ /COLOR],;

Ro 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Ro 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off (Israel), that I might be grafted in.( GENTILES)

Ro 11:20 Well; because of unbelief (Israel)they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Ro 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee (GENTILES).

Ro 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Ro 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

Ro 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Ro 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Ro 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Ro 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Ro 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Ro 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Ro 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Ro 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Ro 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

Ro 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

Ro 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. He is talking about "Israel being the natural branch they where broken of because unbeleif. This is what he said to us.Ro 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, (Israel) take heed lest he also spare not thee. That has nothing to do with being Born again and losing our salvation. Read it again and study it. You are looking at it wrong. Israel was cut of because of unbeleif and we shall be cut of to if we do not believe.